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Author Topic: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?  (Read 2949 times - 1 votes) 
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Offline bReTt

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?[img]https://i.imgur.com/6
« Reply #100 on: February 22, 2021, 05:12:02 PM »
Some recent posts(both my own and others) have got me curious,  how do you like to tune your German springers? Do you run a bought kit like a vortek, tin bum or ARH? Do you do something custom with different springs, seals and guides?

I'd like to hear your methods and preferences, what your goal is for each tune(power, shootability, etc) and your best description of the shot cycle. The performance details(what pellet, velocity, accuracy) would be excellent to hear.

I think it would be cool to just hear what everyone's own preferred methods are without too much debate, just for some good information and ideas!
the HW95 in this pic was bought 7 years ago and the R9 a couple decades ago when living in West Virginia...........

Wow Ed!  Itís been that long since you bought the 95?  I bought one just before that $299 deal came out.  When it did I really debated on getting another one at that price.  I did end up getting it at the $299.  Now I enjoy my R9 .22 bought in 2007 and 2 HW95s in .177.  One 95 is scoped and the other wears a peep 👀.  Itís hard to think that I have had those 95s for 7 years! 
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Offline nced

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #101 on: February 22, 2021, 10:44:48 PM »
I also bought my HW95 from the AOA $299+shipping deal and had to wait several weeks for the shipment to arrive. I initially bought the HW95 to have spare parts for the R9, however I liked the HW95 better so it's now the "go to" springer for me and the R9 is the back-up. Here are a couple pics of the older R9 receiver ID vs the newer HW95...........

The main difference between the two is the leade of the two .177 bores. The R9 has a looser leade that's perfect for boxed Crosman Premiers with their large heads whereas the HW95 has a tighter leade. I made up a pellet head reducer/skirt expanger that sizes pellet heads to 4.50mm. This pellet head size is accurate in both springers yet allows loading into the HW95 leade without have a "sore loading finger session". Here is the pellet head engraving of both the HW95 and R9 after pushing through new CPLs.............
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Offline SpiralGroove

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #102 on: February 23, 2021, 12:39:17 AM »
Hey NCED,
What are the top 3 or 5 reasons that You use only Krytox over Molly, SuperLube or ARH Tars in your airgun tunes?  Did your findings have anything to do with using alternative piston seals? 

- We appreciate your findings after years of practical research ;)
  • Bothell, WA
PCP's:
BSA R10 (.177) Regulated
BSA R10 (.22) OEM
AR2079A (.22) OEM
AR2079A-HPA (.22)
Diana Stormrider (.177) Regulated
QB78D-HPA (.177)
QB79-HPA (.177), QB79-HPA (.22)
RAW HM1000x LRT Camo - (.22)

Pumper's:
1973 Benjamin Franklin 342
1984 Benjamin Franklin 347

Springer's:
Beeman R9   (.20) - Circa 2019
Beeman R10 (.20) - Circa 1988
HW30S (.177)
HW35E (2) (.177)
HW35E (.177) Stainless
HW50S (.177)
HW50S Stainless (.177)
HW80 (.20)
HW95 Hybrid (.177)

Offline nced

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #103 on: February 23, 2021, 10:01:48 AM »
Hey NCED,
What are the top 3 or 5 reasons that You use only Krytox over Molly, SuperLube or ARH Tars in your airgun tunes?  Did your findings have anything to do with using alternative piston seals? 

- We appreciate your findings after years of practical research ;)

"Krytox over Molly, SuperLube or ARH Tars in your airgun tunes?"
1. Petroleum based lubes will diesel, Krytox doesn't. Traditional airgun lubes like molly paste and "tar" also requires very careful application to minimize dieseling. Non-dieseling Krytox is a much more forgiving lube.

2. Petroleum based lubes will outgas and dry out over time becomming "more goopy"..........


3. Krytox GPL205 is white colored instead of "staining black" (a minor issue).

"Did your findings have anything to do with using alternative piston seals? "
Nope, not dieseling and maintaining its consistency over time had more to do with using Krytox than any other feature. A "rubber" oring is still similar to a "rubber" piston seal, however the oring has a much less "friction surface" than an old design HW seal with the thin parachute  edge. The newer HW piston seal has a similar "friction surface" to an oring, however the aluminum oring sealed piston cap places metal directly behing the hot high velocity air at the transfer port that erodes "rubber" piston seals...........

One thing I've noticed about the later design factory HW piston seals in a couple HW springers I worked was "face cracking" which I personally never experienced when I tested the factory seals...........


Here is the later design properly fitting HW factory piston seal after testing in my HW95 showing no face cracking.......

 
I did notice that the factory HW piston seal diameter can vary quite a bit. I tuned a HW95 for a friend a few years ago and noticed that the brand new seal was a rather loose fit in the receiver. I got another brand new HW piston seal from my parts bin and it fit perfectly. Perhaps the pics of cracked HW piston seals was due to a "loose fitter" from the factory leading to "piston slamming" but I don't know the actual cause...........

  • USA, North Carolina, Rougemont

Offline Yogi

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #104 on: February 23, 2021, 10:55:26 AM »
Wouldn't bronze top hats and spring guides be even better than steel or Delrin?

-Yogi
  • San Francisco, CA
Hatsan 95 Vortex, .22
RWS 6G, .177
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HW 50S, .177, .20, and .22

Offline SpiralGroove

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #105 on: February 23, 2021, 11:11:45 AM »
Thanks NCED ;),

To summerize what you said:
1) Krytox allows you to simply tuning by using 1 Lube to replace Molly, SuperLube, Heavy & Clear Tar products.
2) Krytox is Not temperature sensitive where as Heavier Tars can affect POI because of viscosity changes.
3) Petroleum products are prone to dieseling vs. Krytox.
4) Petroleum products are prone to drying out over time and loosing their effectiveness vs. Krytox.

If all the above are true, it seems new DIY'ers would be wise to use Krytox only as it costs about the same as all the above mentioned lubes (combined) without their downside.   

I myself, may try Krytox in the future, but currently have about 5 years of the previously mentioned petroleum products in inventory.
  • Bothell, WA
PCP's:
BSA R10 (.177) Regulated
BSA R10 (.22) OEM
AR2079A (.22) OEM
AR2079A-HPA (.22)
Diana Stormrider (.177) Regulated
QB78D-HPA (.177)
QB79-HPA (.177), QB79-HPA (.22)
RAW HM1000x LRT Camo - (.22)

Pumper's:
1973 Benjamin Franklin 342
1984 Benjamin Franklin 347

Springer's:
Beeman R9   (.20) - Circa 2019
Beeman R10 (.20) - Circa 1988
HW30S (.177)
HW35E (2) (.177)
HW35E (.177) Stainless
HW50S (.177)
HW50S Stainless (.177)
HW80 (.20)
HW95 Hybrid (.177)

Offline clarky

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #106 on: February 23, 2021, 11:27:34 AM »
Wouldn't bronze top hats and spring guides be even better than steel or Delrin?

-Yogi

Well, it all comes back to what should work best on paper and what actually does in reality. However, if people studied the paper better, they would see that Phosphor Bronze is not quite the right choice.
PB is material intended for a rotating spindle of steel. Design requirements requiring a nice running fit, to exacting tolerances but not something rubbing up and down over its surface like a mainspring that is tight fitting. It will will tear up the surface and leave deposits of PB after time, but is not an outright bad choice and otherwise gives superb low friction characteristics with steel. For all the mild dust meniscus it will leave down inside a piston, it  will still outlast Delrin if you want to run tight.
Brass, being slightly less efficient in the friction stakes is better able to stand upto a tight mainspring, but IMO
Hardened steel beats all for this application.
  • worcestershire, UK, England

Offline nced

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #107 on: February 23, 2021, 11:43:49 AM »
Wouldn't bronze top hats and spring guides be even better than steel or Delrin?

-Yogi
I personally don't like metal guides or top hats. Metal guides require a VERY tight fit in the spring to kill twang/vibration (tighter than Delrin) and bronze guides will get worn by the steel spring when the fit is very tight in the spring. The only purpose for a top hat in my situation is to center the spring end in the piston so I don't want the extra mass added to the piston with steel or bronze/brass. Now if I were shooting heavy 10.5 grain .177 pellets the extra mass added to the piston
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Offline clarky

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #108 on: February 23, 2021, 12:03:07 PM »
Nice to see you running steel rings on the Delrin Ed...
Agreeing with you regarding the guide, but in regard the Top Hat, it dont need to be massive and a good proportion of its bearing hole on the latch rod can be relieved out to leave just 2, or 3mm contacting the rod, reducing the weight....same with the rim.
No longer than 10mm and bored out this way, it will only weigh a few grams....Done like this, I never really got the whole discussion regarding weight. I have never really noticed the difference.
In hardened steel can go as tight as you like and will last forever.
  • worcestershire, UK, England

Offline Mark 611

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #109 on: February 23, 2021, 04:58:20 PM »
I myself being old school on how I do things, I will say I have not used Krytox, but I know how to apply JM's lubes and have never had any issues with them, but I will say I purchased a AA Pro Elite about 10yrs ago that had sat in a guy's gun safe for 5yrs before I purchased it, it had been lubed with some type of moly paste, when I got the gun I noticed it didn't sound normal, I took it apart to find all the moly had dried up and was crusty!!!! I personally have not had this happen to my rifles I have lubed but not to say it can't happen, but I will personally keep using my JM lubes until they cause an issue! ;D
  • Indiana
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HW50 .20cal X2
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HW35 .177cal





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Offline nced

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #110 on: February 23, 2021, 05:11:13 PM »
I myself being old school on how I do things, I will say I have not used Krytox, but I know how to apply JM's lubes and have never had any issues with them, but I will say I purchased a AA Pro Elite about 10yrs ago that had sat in a guy's gun safe for 5yrs before I purchased it, it had been lubed with some type of moly paste, when I got the gun I noticed it didn't sound normal, I took it apart to find all the moly had dried up and was crusty!!!! I personally have not had this happen to my rifles I have lubed but not to say it can't happen, but I will personally keep using my JM lubes until they cause an issue! ;D
Strange things do happen on occasion. How about this "lube job" on a R9 that I worked a while back. The lube , whatever it was, still had what I assume was "normal consistency" but it had obviously migrated in front of the piston seal due to excess application (I assume)..........

I don't know if the cracked face of the piston seal was due to "excessive dieseling", poor fitting in the receiver (it was a bit loose), or a bad seal composition.
  • USA, North Carolina, Rougemont

Offline SpiralGroove

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #111 on: February 23, 2021, 05:16:23 PM »
Things I've noticed with my current tune:

- Straight Molly on trigger sears tends to dry out; I really have no idea how this hurts, but it's moist in the first place and then goes dry - so probably not ideal.  CDT recommended using Gene Sunday's Mystery Oil on triggers.   I have a batch of this somewhere GSMO = a mixture of Molly + Non-Detergent HD30 oil - IIRC.

- Piston seal Molly has never dried, I attribute this to the SuperLube w/PTFE in the compression chamber, but I don't really know for sure?

- Heavy Dieseling/Detonation after a tune is very short lived, as many times as I've opened up my guns ... never noticed a problem with any internals.  The worst part of HD/D is cleaning the barrel to remove the black residue hindering accuracy.  10/15 shots and its over :D

- Because I live in a relatively moderate climate, never noticed significant POI changes due to tar; or could have misread this as Operator Error.  I don't hunt or shoot Field Target ... maybe out-of-sight & out-of-mind ::).

- Never had a problem using Delrin or Nylon for Spring Guides of Top-Hats.  I try to make them as robust as I can, but still fit.  I've probably made spring guides very tight before, but never had a problem with breakage.  The biggest downside (I've seen) to a very tight spring guide is reduced velocity as this inhibits spring travel.

I believe manufactures who are having problems with breakage are using cheaper materials or reducing part thickness to reduce costs.  

- Steel top-hat give you a slightly faster shot cycle because of weight and reduced friction.

Not trying to "Stir The Pot" as this is what I've seen in my short 8 years of tuning 8)
  • Bothell, WA
PCP's:
BSA R10 (.177) Regulated
BSA R10 (.22) OEM
AR2079A (.22) OEM
AR2079A-HPA (.22)
Diana Stormrider (.177) Regulated
QB78D-HPA (.177)
QB79-HPA (.177), QB79-HPA (.22)
RAW HM1000x LRT Camo - (.22)

Pumper's:
1973 Benjamin Franklin 342
1984 Benjamin Franklin 347

Springer's:
Beeman R9   (.20) - Circa 2019
Beeman R10 (.20) - Circa 1988
HW30S (.177)
HW35E (2) (.177)
HW35E (.177) Stainless
HW50S (.177)
HW50S Stainless (.177)
HW80 (.20)
HW95 Hybrid (.177)

Offline Mark 611

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #112 on: February 24, 2021, 05:06:43 PM »
I myself do not have migration issues with moly on the piston seal as u have shown ED, that's probably because I have learned over the yrs how to apply it correctly, not under minding u at all just my experience with how much is to much, also seal fit or a out of round compression tube can cause what u are showing, I would agree Kirk trigger sears are best left to oils not paste, like moly or SL, IMO trigger sears are best left at a hi polish mirror state with no lube at all! due to polishing compound being burnished into the metal! ;D
  • Indiana
In the words of my friend OC Bolding he told me if ur gonna Dance with DEVIL you got to wear the shoes!!!!! How true this is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
54 JUNKYARD AIRGUNS FORUM MEMBER!!!!!
When good men are silent only evil is heard!
Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone!


Beeman R1 carbine .20cal X2
HW95 .22cal
HW50 .20cal X2
HW50 .22cal
HW35 .177cal





U.K. Webley Tomahawk .22cal
Diana T06 460mag .22cal
Cometa Fenix 400 compact.22cal

Offline nced

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #113 on: February 24, 2021, 09:38:35 PM »
I myself do not have migration issues with moly on the piston seal as u have shown ED, that's probably because I have learned over the yrs how to apply it correctly, not under minding u at all just my experience with how much is to much, also seal fit or a out of round compression tube can cause what u are showing, I would agree Kirk trigger sears are best left to oils not paste, like moly or SL, IMO trigger sears are best left at a hi polish mirror state with no lube at all! due to polishing compound being burnished into the metal! ;D
LOL.....I wasn't clear, the lube job shown in the pics wasn't done by me, it was done by the previous owner of the gun of his "tuner". Anywhoo.....Krytox is much more forgiving than molly bearing petroleum based lubes since Krytox doesn't diesel and it doesn't outgas nearly as much, if at all.
When I tested a new design HW piston seal. No combustion products on the seal at all.......
  • USA, North Carolina, Rougemont

Offline SpiralGroove

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #114 on: February 24, 2021, 10:39:57 PM »
Yeah Ed,
If I were starting new - I'd probably use Krytox products exclusively.
But I'm not ... All my Spring guns are tuned .... trying to save my pennies after purchasing a RAW HM1000x & Element Helix scope :D.
  • Bothell, WA
PCP's:
BSA R10 (.177) Regulated
BSA R10 (.22) OEM
AR2079A (.22) OEM
AR2079A-HPA (.22)
Diana Stormrider (.177) Regulated
QB78D-HPA (.177)
QB79-HPA (.177), QB79-HPA (.22)
RAW HM1000x LRT Camo - (.22)

Pumper's:
1973 Benjamin Franklin 342
1984 Benjamin Franklin 347

Springer's:
Beeman R9   (.20) - Circa 2019
Beeman R10 (.20) - Circa 1988
HW30S (.177)
HW35E (2) (.177)
HW35E (.177) Stainless
HW50S (.177)
HW50S Stainless (.177)
HW80 (.20)
HW95 Hybrid (.177)

Offline bReTt

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #115 on: February 25, 2021, 12:39:17 AM »
Iíd like to try the Krytox but Iím too lazy to take all my springers apart and do it all over again.  Ha ha ha!!!  It sounds like good stuff.
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Offline Filnez

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #116 on: February 25, 2021, 02:47:29 AM »
Where is a good place to get the Krytox grease? Wouldn't need a large amount for one rifle.
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Offline SpiralGroove

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #117 on: February 25, 2021, 07:52:42 AM »
Where is a good place to get the Krytox grease? Wouldn't need a large amount for one rifle.
Look no further than Amazon ... It's very expensive.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=krytox&crid=19EGPW2037DEI&sprefix=Krytox%2Caps%2C244&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_3_6
  • Bothell, WA
PCP's:
BSA R10 (.177) Regulated
BSA R10 (.22) OEM
AR2079A (.22) OEM
AR2079A-HPA (.22)
Diana Stormrider (.177) Regulated
QB78D-HPA (.177)
QB79-HPA (.177), QB79-HPA (.22)
RAW HM1000x LRT Camo - (.22)

Pumper's:
1973 Benjamin Franklin 342
1984 Benjamin Franklin 347

Springer's:
Beeman R9   (.20) - Circa 2019
Beeman R10 (.20) - Circa 1988
HW30S (.177)
HW35E (2) (.177)
HW35E (.177) Stainless
HW50S (.177)
HW50S Stainless (.177)
HW80 (.20)
HW95 Hybrid (.177)

Offline nced

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #118 on: February 25, 2021, 11:20:59 AM »
Where is a good place to get the Krytox grease? Wouldn't need a large amount for one rifle.
I buy the 2 oz tubes (8oz tubes when I was doing tuning for others) but the 1/2oz will lube a couple guns. To test out the "non-dieseling claims" I first bought a 1/2oz tube and after slathering my R9 internals deliberately getting some on the face of the piston seal I had this much left over. Easily enough to do a proper lube job on the HW95.........


One thing to remember is that Krytox doesn't mix well with "dinosaur grease" so it's recommended to strip the petro grease from parts and dry before lubing with Krytox. With use the Krytox in such a mix will be unaffected after the "dinosaur grease" in the mix fails which will degrade the mix. While springer internals aren't "high temp high speed bearings" I still sriip the internals with non-chlorinated aerosol brake cleaner and dry the cleaned parts before lubing. I personally prefer the "Plain Jane" Krytox GPL205 vs the GPL225 which contains a wear and corrosion inhibitor........
  • USA, North Carolina, Rougemont

Offline tjk

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Re: I'm curious, how do YOU tune your German springer?
« Reply #119 on: February 26, 2021, 10:56:36 AM »
One last little trick i use when tuning with the old fashioned JM lubes is applying tar to the mainspring. Iíve seen springs covered with moly, springs tht have apparently been oiled, and springs ridiculously coated with black tar. I use black tar on my springs. I was once told to apply black tar with my index finger, and apply enough to make it stringy between the coils. In my humble opinion, that seems a bit too much. So this is my method. Your mileage may very. Anywoo,.....i put on a pair of nitrile gloves, and out a peanut sized dab of tar on one hand and carefully spread the tar by rubbing my hands together much like washing the palms of your hands with soap. Then i pick up the spring and simply coat the spring with the tarred up gloves to the point that it is evenly spread and more of a thin coating on the coils and in between the coils. No stinging of tar. Just enough to make the spring look powder coated or painted i suppose.  I end up wasting more tar on the gloves, but tar isnt that expensive, so I can live with the loss. Then i pull the gloves off and throw in the trash. Alot less messy too. Often times i use nitrile gloves when reinstalling the spring in the action just to avoid getting my hands dirty.
  • Spartanburg County, South Carolina.
FWB 124D JM old school kit
FWB 124S JM guts
FWB 127S 'San Anselmoí PW hone & pivot
R1K .20 HB w/Vortek guide & mystery wire
R1 SRo w/titan wire
Diana 34 .22 / 54 AK .22. Both tuned
HW30D  .20 JM seal
HW35E .22 pure stock form.
AA s410SL Xtra-Fac .22