Agree, it’s a very simple yet practical idea. I would add that the plasticity and gripping characteristics of the bushing would be very important. If the bushing starts compressing too easily just from the initial forward surge it would rob the gun of power before it slams the end of the chamber. On the opposite end the bushing needs to maintain its friction coefficient for the life of the gun, so I’m wondering how long it’s anti-bounce properties last given that it is subject to constant frictions on the recoil stroke. Probably wears out quickly...-Marty
I am equally skeptical, and for the same reasons, Marty.For this idea to work, the piston cup seal would require much more mass directly coupled to it (perhaps half the piston mass). That would keep the seal cup moving, to quickly and "fully" compress the air ahead of it. Then the second half of the mass could come in to act like a dead-blow hammer - with the rubber acting both as a cushion and a brake. Braking too soon (the way it looks in the video simulation), would seem to rob the seal cup of forward momentum. It looks like the lack of bounce-back in the configuration depicted would not make up for the loss due to the piston cup slowing down prematurely.The friction of the rubber would depend on lubricant in the system, and the surface finish of the cylinder and rubber. It would probably also be ambient and recent use history temperature sensitive - with the rubber stiffness and braking effect being affected. The exact part dimensions would also matter, as would wear and fatigue of the rubber over life.I think the idea has merit, but think it could be improved.Quote from: MartyMcFly on January 31, 2021, 09:59:31 AMAgree, it’s a very simple yet practical idea. I would add that the plasticity and gripping characteristics of the bushing would be very important. If the bushing starts compressing too easily just from the initial forward surge it would rob the gun of power before it slams the end of the chamber. On the opposite end the bushing needs to maintain its friction coefficient for the life of the gun, so I’m wondering how long it’s anti-bounce properties last given that it is subject to constant frictions on the recoil stroke. Probably wears out quickly...-Marty
The rubber friction brake is almost certainly already a donut. Else the the front of the piston would have no connection with the rear. The connection is via a captured but telescoping rod, passing though the donut.
Hmmm, combine the reed value TP with an anti-bounce piston (dead-blow hammer design), then add a soft spring with high preload and a soft bushing behind the piston seal! 1. Reed value prevents flow back Where would you put it? There is very little space in the small volume of the transfer port and any increase in transfer port volume to add a valve drops compression ratio and hurts performance.2. Anti-bounce piston improves efficiency and reduces bounce NP2 & patent = already in production. Why do some folks think this doesn't work?3. High pre-load spring provides an additional force against the backwards surge Air/gas (NP2) springs already have a much higher "end" force to resist bounce than coil springs do.4. Soft bushing absorbs some of the harshness on impact generated from the high preload Again NP2 & patent = already in production. Why do some folks think this doesn't work?Over engineered yet? 1) In my opinion YES. 2)3)4) seems elegantly simple to me. KISS philosophy in action and already here in the NP2 series. Springers were are a very simple design concept. If you want a more complex system skip springers and move right on to PCPs & their support equipment. NOT bashing PCPs at all. Have some and appreciate their advantages.Wait, there is more! Use a long stroke compression tube and ensure you are using a low start pressure pellet. With a longer stroke and low start pressure pellet you begin accelerating the pellet earlier, avoid skirt flair, and get the pellet to leave the barrel before (hopefully) the piston crashes into the back of the TP. This may be more difficult than you think. How much LONGER do you make the compression tube for the long stroke and how much longer do you have to make the barrel so the pellet can get up to speed? A 6 foot long springer that shoots like a PCP would not interest me at all. -Marty
I haven't posted on my project in a while, mostly due to time constraints not a waning interest. The following are some pictures from the past few months and some conclusions.\I'll try to get some finished photos or video up in the next week or so.Breech designGas spring charging contraptionPiston weight adjustment (bad idea) Before lighteningAfter lighteningThe gun is shooting and I have been tuning. I've learned a lot during the tuning process, mostly about how little I understood spring guns when I started the design.Piston weight is probably the most important design element. I started with HS aluminum pistons that were discarded very early on due to the coating that was intended to provide hardness and wear resistance didn't penetrate the 7063 alloy to a sufficient depth. The next set were made from 4130 and they are the ones pictured above. Initial performance with the 4130 pistons was terrible, the gun was producing about 10 fpe. That was about a 1/3 of where I wanted to be so I wrongly decided to lighten the pistons. The lightening of the pistons reduced the velocity by over 100 fps! At least I was on to something, so I incrementally added some brass rings in between the gas spring and piston skirt. Each ring weighed almost an ounce and added about 40 fps. With the brass weights I was able to bring the piston weight from .4 lbs to almost .95lb each. There was no more room for brass, I had reached the max weight with this method. Next I removed the brass weights and poured lead into the pistons, with a little fiddling I got the piston weight matched and was at 1.35 lbs each. Performance was 23 fpe at this point and still far from the design goal. Charging this gas springs from 1600 to 2300 psi increased power to 25 fpe. 2300 psi equates ~ 550 lbs. of force which made the cocking force uncomfortable. My conclusion is.............. Large piston face/short stroke is unworkable. The large piston face area makes them prone to bounce and it is impossible to make them heavy enough to overcome the bounce. I believe that if I had more space for heavier pistons I could get closer to the design goal. I have an uncompleted longer stroke version with the same bore that could fit heaver pistons but to have 3 lbs. of piston weight seems silly and will make the gun too heavy. Even with the longer stroke, I believe I'd still be on the wrong side of the swept area/piston face curve. The 1.79 dia. piston design ends here. Lesson learned Now for some good news.......... Completely sans-recoil, if it wasn't for the noise you wouldn't know that it fired! Really, the gun has no motion or vibration period. It's that smooth!I've considered de-tuning to 18 fpe and using for FT but rejected this idea for a new line of development. As I said, the 1.79 bore is dead.A sneak look at my new version. A longer stroke and smaller bore. Cocking, sears and breech design will remain the same. One advantage of the longer stroke is that it simplifies the cocking linkage somewhat. Yeah Tom
So, Marty; is this project still running? https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=149983.msg1541192#msg1541192
The most serious consequence of piston bounce is that it reverses the rifle’s recoil into forward surge, before the pellet emerges from the muzzle...
Many people have thought about trying to harness inertia (resistance to start to move) weights to crush the seal, or some kind of frictional band, and increase its friction during the bounce. Sadly, it seems improbable that they will work as intended, and to understand why, we need to look at piston velocity.
The inertia weight would probably stand a better chance of raising piston seal friction during the final few millimetres of piston travel at the end of the compression stroke, when the deceleration is ferocious (in excess of 1,000g), and that would almost certainly reduce the length of the compression stroke, causing significant loss of muzzle energy. Having said which, the only way to tell for certain whether any modification will work is to build it and test.
Although surge is primarily caused by piston bounce, it can be exacerbated by the rifle bouncing off your shoulder