💀 Quarry: What kills’em dead – the Mechanics of Killing

[JimD]

Interesting to see my comments from early 2021 in this thread.  Since I wrote this I figured out my 25 Avenger likes FX 25.4s, bought a P35 in 25 and determined it likes H&N FTTs, and most recently acquired a P35 in 22 and 177.  The Avenger has killed 2 squirrels for me and the P35 in 25 has killed 18.  The P35 in 177 has killed 2 so far.  I've also killed at least half a dozen more with my original PCP, my Prod. 

I've recovered the last 11 squirrels I've shot with the little Prod since tuning it up to 17-18 fpe.  About half were body shots. 

I've recovered all the 18 squirrels I've shot with my P35 in 25 calibler.  8 were body shots.  The pellet failed to exit on only 3 of those squirrels.  One was a shoulder to shoulder shot and it dropped right were it was hit.  Two were lengthwise shots through the body and those squirrels ran 12-15 feet.  All the pellets from those 3 were found under the hide. 

My Avenger has killed two, both with body shots.  Neither squirrel moved far after the hit but one got a second pellet.  The pellets all exited.

I've only had the P35 in 177 about a month but have killed two squirrels with it.  One was a head shot and it crumpled up and dropped.  The other was hit in the shoulder.  It moved a couple feet on the limb it was on and fell.  It's legs were flailing as it fell and I think if my dog hadn't been there it would have run.  She finished it off.  This gun is tuned to about 19 fpe and penetrates further than my Prod in wet magazines.

I don't think my additional experience causes me to regret any of my previous statements.  I want more data on 177 performance but I remain a little concerned about the size of the holes if makes for body shots.  I also want some data from my P35 in 22.  It is tuned to shoot H&N Barracuda Match at about 835 fps.  It out penetrates my P35 in 25 so I should get even more pass throughs.  I expect to see more running after body shots with the 22 and even more with the 177 but we'll see.  An expanding pellet should help the 22 and 17 if I find one they like. 

But all my PCPs kill squirrels fine when I put the pellet in the right place.  I use brain shots when I feel comfortable I can place it properly.  If I am a bit shaky, I switch to the larger "vitals" target (or pass on the shot).  I shot the top of the skull off a dove, however, and it needed a followup.  Head shots are not an immediate kill unless you hit the brain or spine.  I had a shot with the P35 in 25 crush the skull on a 8 ounce squirrel (a small one) once, hoever, despite my shot hitting about at the point of the jaw - ahead of the brain I think.  Squirrel dropped immediately.  I see the margin from the larger calibers as nice to have for both brain and body shots but most important for body shots. 

I'm still not a fan of expanding air gun projectiles for the hunting I do but I might get there on the 177.  I will only switch if I find one that is accurate, however.  Wider hole is not a good trade for worse shot placement.  I might also just stop taking body shots with my 177. 

[Bayman]

  Wider hole is not a good trade for worse shot placement.

The long and the short of it. 

[HOSPassassin]

All I can comment on is my own experience with squirrels.

The combination of .177 Meisterkugeln, 600 fps at the muzzle, within 25 yards, in the vitals, has led to dozens of DRT kills. No escapes, no death dances, just drop on the spot. Occasionally they will take the hit and either freeze or run for a couple of seconds but they don't get away. I always find the pellet stuck in the skin on the opposite side. It might pass through if I nail one in the head. Rib or shoulder bones don't seem to matter.

FTT or AADF in .177 from another gun with all the other parameters kept constant leads to the same results.

I don't know why it works but it does, very well.

I think sometimes we hunters (not calling out anyone in this discussion, more what I have seen on youtube) forget that our quarry are living creatures that feel pain and fear rather than just fur-covered spinner targets. If we brag about anything it should be how close we got to the target rather than how long of a shot we connected on. That, however, is difficult to portray on video.

[JimD]

Brendan,

Thanks for sharing your much broader experience with a 177.  I'm a bit wary because of the vigor that seemed to be in the one I body shot but I am still waiting to get a chance to get some more data.  I will use my 177 more on squirrels and will use shots to the vitals when that seems to be the best shot I have.  I will need to loose a few before I give up that shot and based upon your experience it may not happen.

Dropping quickly will not be as big an issue when I hunt the game lands in SC this fall.  As long as they do not get away it won't matter if they run a bit.  But in my backyard I like them to drop very quickly because my lot is only 75 feet wide and I don't want them expiring in my neighbors yards.  That environment is more where I worry about the 177.  My 25 caliber P35 did a great job of dropping them last year.  Only two of 18 ran and they didn't get far.

Jim

[Nvreloader]

 Mathias.
"And to at least mention the “hydrostatic shock,” even disputed among high velocity ballisticians: We simply admit that the “hydrostatic shock” is not a factor at the low velocities of our AG".

Great article Mathias,
I can vouch for the above info ref "Hydrostatic Shock", I got a cull job thru the F/G office in Calif (65) era, removing deer that were destroying a grape vine yard, (every deer taken) was taken care of and given to the local senior citizen chapter, so nothing went to waste etc. I got very good at truck skinning a deer...........

My choice of rifle was a 17-222 Rem, PB, a 15gr bullet @ 4000fps, every critter shot (100+) was shot in the eye, at ranges from 25yds thru 50yds, I am hear to tell you, every deer acted like it was electrocuted, legs instantly locked stiff and collapse on the spot without any movement.
Upon examining the results of the hydrostatic shock, was quite an experience and eye opener, with the end results Hard to believe.

Several of the heads were split open to see the results, NO Bone was hit,
just the eye ball, very fine dust type particles (from the 15gr bullet) were found thru out the eye socket.
The hydrostatic shock turned anything it came in contact with to Jellied liquid, the brain was reduced to a very runny scrambled egg's consistency, blood veins were ruptured etc.
It was very hard to understand that a very lite fast bullet could cause that much damage.

I know, we don't have anything close to that with our air guns,
but it sure would be nice to have.
 
Find and read the report about the Grand Canyon's feral Burro removal,
using 22-250 and 220 Swift calibers with lite weight bullets at over 4000fps etc.
"Gazop, Lites out".
FIRR, I believe that Outdoor Life magazine posted the article.

Thank you,
Don

[JungleShooter]

Don, 

loved your story — what an amazing destruction!! Cool that you got to see hydrostatic shock first hand in your quarry.


Man, 15 grain bullets for powder burners?!?  —  In Peru where I shoot access to powder burners is very restricted, so I'm pretty ignorant about PB bullets — I had no idea they made such light projectiles for PB!

Matthias 

[Nvreloader]

At that time there was VERY few bullet makers that made bullets for the 17 cal,
I still have several boxes of Sisk 15gr bullets.

Now a days Hornady makes the 17 VMav plastic tipped bullet that are 17 gr's,
and if you pull out the center plastic tips you end up with a 15grs.

A starling centered with one of those 15Vmax makes a perfect round dark circle of feathers, when shot from my 17 XST Weasel case @3650fps, 16"bbl.

I had better stop before the ax falls on me for talking PB lingo.............Lol 
Thanks,
Don

[JimD]

Don's experience is interesting but not at all pertinent to air guns and not really recommended or typical for PBs.  I have no doubt in the hands of an expert and at close range a very high velocity and very light weight bullet PROPERLY PLACED can be deadly.  I don't think he said it but I am guessing that they were also trying to drop deer without running, may have been an urban area.  In many states even a 22 caliber PB is not legal for deer.  The issue is with non-ideal shot placement.  Like hitting the shoulder.  A rapidly expanding light weight bullet may produce a very nasty surface wound which will cause the deer to suffer, possibly for a long time.  For most of us, we want to know we have enough penetration to get to the vitals even if we hit a good sized bone. 

The latter point is why I test projectiles in MDF and wet paper before using them on game.  I want to know I have enough penetration.  I have a good calibration on what is enough for a squirrel and one rabbit data point but have to guess on other game.  So I listen to others experience and try to make sure I have some margin.  Enough penetration for a very well placed brain shot may easily not be enough for a shoulder shot, however. 

[ER00z]

Wasn't sure whare to post this, but this thread came to mind... How funny because this pertains to a 15gr .17cal (.177) projectile 

This .177 caliber 15gr slug from Nielsen Specialty Ammo was recovered from Plastilina Clay at 30 yards. The PCP being used sends them out at an average of 1055fps (37fpe), and honestly I wasn't sure I'd recover it. As a loose guide, I figure at 80°F (26.6°C) I get half as much penetration in this clay than through game animals. To my surprise, I only had 3" or so of penetration in the clay, so I figure about 6" of critter penetration (As I said, "a loose guide"). Didn't snap a photo of the clay cavity, but it shows promise of these slugs dumping a lot of energy fairly  quickly, and from my pellet testing I feel fairly confident in the results (but could be in for a surprise). Currently going through a dry spell of pests, but can't wait to see how these actually perform on game.

[Back_Roads]

 Hmm shortage of critters, make some with clay

[ER00z]

Hmm shortage of critters, make some with clay

    

As wildly entertaining as that would be, I would like to recover one of those slugs from a game critter (if possible). Funny thing, the primary reason for using the slugs is because they're what's most accurate from that gun...

At subsonic speeds I don't expect too much from small caliber hollow points and even question if larger domed/round nose projectiles are better overall. It seems .30cal has gained momentum in the airgun community and isn't quite considered overkill.

[Thane]

Conservation of energy and relative mass is often breezed over. 9mm vs 200 lbs man does not compare well to 5.5 mm vs. 5 ounce rat, and a 1.5 ounce sparrow just explodes well beyond a 5.5mm wound channel.

Never underestimate a good old fashioned bludgeoning.

[HOSPassassin]

Conservation of energy and relative mass is often breezed over. 9mm vs 200 lbs man does not compare well to 5.5 mm vs. 5 ounce rat, and a 1.5 ounce sparrow just explodes well beyond a 5.5mm wound channel.

Never underestimate a good old fashioned bludgeoning.

I wrote about this some time ago in the hunting gate. Basically, a 7-grain .177 wadcutter pellet impacting the vitals of a 2-pound tree rat would be similar to a 700-grain mini-anvil hitting ME (just under 200#) there. I don't think I would fare well. I also don't think a 1,430 grain domed projectile would kill me much deader. 

[ER00z]

I don't know... If I'm reading between the lines here, I'm thinking y'all are giving the nod to get a .45cal airgun...  

[Mod90]

Hmm shortage of critters, make some with clay

    

As wildly entertaining as that would be, I would like to recover one of those slugs from a game critter (if possible). Funny thing, the primary reason for using the slugs is because they're what's most accurate from that gun...

At subsonic speeds I don't expect too much from small caliber hollow points and even question if larger domed/round nose projectiles are better overall. It seems .30cal has gained momentum in the airgun community and isn't quite considered overkill.

What may or may not be considered overkill is rather situational.
.30 cal hp pellet delivering 120 fpe to a coyote, no, same .30 cal pellet on a dove, probably.
Overkill depends on what's on the receiving end, and your plans for the animal afterwards.

[Howler]

Hitting the kill zone! This is essential even with powder burners. I don't count on hydraulic shock, but If I can hit a pop top regular @ 60 yrds I'm quite confident to use it somewhat to my advantage as my rifle still carries 90 flbs at that distance. Bullet manufacturers have been trying to develop "the perfect" bullet per caliber for yrs! the best (for bringing down a large animal) is the projectile that transfers energy, but still retains a high % of its original weight. It's not all Scientific IMO. Water is a good indication of the expansion possible! I don't believe there is a perfect media for testing expansion.

[Madd Hatter]

What kills is a Permanent HOLE in the quarry – nothing else

Yes and no. For example, small game hunting with bow and arrow is done with blunt tips in order to produce blunt force trauma.
There's no penetration. In fact, some "blunt tips" for small game hunting have wires that stick out the sides in order to prevent the arrow from penetrating.
I know of a story where a deer survived having an arrow lodge itself longitudinally in the deer. That's a 28 or so inch penetration with no lethality! the next hunter who shot the deer the next year or so later found the arrow in the deer. Penetration alone isn't a guarantee of making a kill.

Also, there's been numerous people to have shot a critter with a gun, with complete pass through "in the kill zone" yet no lethality, only to have the wounded critter run off in pain and slowly die from an infection in the wound. How that deer didn't succumb to infection is amazing.

Its complicated. However, blunt force trauma is what people are referring to when they say "dumping energy". You want your projectile to transfer energy to your target in order to increase the chances of making a kill.

I'll bet it was hit with a field point instead of a broad head which has blades to cut a large wound channel so it would bleed out quickly. The field point probably just punched a hole that was smaller than the arrow and sealed off so no blood loss.