At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding?
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At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding?
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Topic: At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding? (Read 763 times))
JungleShooter
How ironic 🤦🏼♂️: All my life I had to be a jack-of-all-trades. And now since getting into airgunning all of a sudden they call me an
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Posts: 1750
There is a bug. It's called AG. It bit me! Bad.
Real Name: Matthias
At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding?
«
on:
June 10, 2020, 03:32:38 PM »
At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding?
For those of us who dont have the latest power-plus-plaything-part shooting slugs will happen in the lower velocities.
So, I wonder if the hollow points of the slugs will still expand in quarry
at lower impact velocities...?
(700fps, 600fps, in .22cal)
Do you have any evidence that they do (or dont)?
At what (estimated?) impact velocities do you see expansion in quarry?
Seems like this calls for a test series....!
Matthias
«
Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 03:36:29 PM by JungleShooter
»
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Lima, PERU
Chris USA
Expert
Posts: 1288
yes
Real Name: Chris
Re: At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding?
«
Reply #1 on:
June 10, 2020, 04:50:35 PM »
Good point. Why waist the time and $? on HP (slugs or pellets) if they are doing nothing or little? A dome may shoot as well,... or better. FPS, projectile type/brand,.... and maybe most important,... what will be the test target/material?
This sounds like a good test for someone that has a wide variety of HP projectiles already on hand.
Chris
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Central Ohio
198/200, Daystate Red Wolf HP/FAC in .25, 8-34x56 Athlon Argos { for sale, in person only }
Maximus "hunter" in .22, 4-12x44 UTG
Barra 1866
Avanti 499
75th anniversary Red Ryder
JungleShooter
How ironic 🤦🏼♂️: All my life I had to be a jack-of-all-trades. And now since getting into airgunning all of a sudden they call me an
Expert
Posts: 1750
There is a bug. It's called AG. It bit me! Bad.
Real Name: Matthias
Re: At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding?
«
Reply #2 on:
June 27, 2020, 11:02:45 AM »
So, at what impact velocities are you seeing that .22cal hollow point slugs
still expand well
?
(If you give me range, weight and MV I can do the calc.)
Anybody up for shooting them into ballistic gel or glycerin soap? 😊
Matthias
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Lima, PERU
rsterne
Member 2000+fps Club
Bob and Lloyd
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 26920
GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
Real Name: Bob
Re: At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding?
«
Reply #3 on:
June 27, 2020, 01:45:28 PM »
I have very little information on slugs at low velocities, but I do have a limited amount in soap on the H&N Crow Magnum pellets, which have a large HP.... In .177 cal (8.8 gr.) they came apart at 876 fps (leaving a nose ring and base section), mushroomed with a large wound channel at 784 and 679 fps, and mushroomed somewhat (but not violently) at 598 fps.... They did not expand at all at 392 fps.... The same pellet in .22 cal (18 gr.) mushroomed with a large wound channel at 707 fps, and even more at 962 fps, but stayed intact....
For the H&N Baracuda Hunter, which has a much smaller HP, in .177 cal (10.2 gr.) they mushroomed with a large wound channel at 892 fps, they were starting to mushroom at 814 fps, but at 728 fps only exhibited some shortening.... For the same pellet in .22 cal (18.2 gr.) they mushroomed with a large wound channel at 957 fps, and also opened up well at 703 fps....
I did find some lower speed data for Mr. Hollowpoint slugs in .25 cal.... The 58 gr. HP mushroomed with a large wound channel at 553 fps, and the 50 gr. did the same at 600 fps.... At 807 fps, the 58 gr. came apart, leaving a huge wound channel (and so did the 50 gr. at 875).... I also have data on an RCBS 50 gr. that was converted to a 46 gr. HP.... At 623 fps it mushroomed OK with a moderate wound channel, while at 908 fps it came apart, creating a huge wound channel.... All other HP slug testing I have done was at over 800 fps (and all expanded well)....For great information on how the size and depth of the HP cavity affects expansion of HPs, I refer you to my latest article in H.A.M....
https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/bob-sterne-discusses-hollowpoint-slug-design/
If I had to try and summarize, I would be tempted to say that Hollowpoints made of typically soft airgun alloys don't expand below 500 fps, and expand reliably above 800 fps .... Between those velocities (which is what you are interested in) the amount of expansion depends on the size and depth of the HP and the hardness of the lead alloy.... There are good examples of HP expansion on Erik's website.... but with harder alloys than we typically use....
http://www.hollowpointmold.com/expansion-results/
If you are interested in the minimum possible velocity for reliable expansion, I would contact Talon slugs....
https://www.talonslugs.com/
They have a new line of fragmenting slugs designed to come apart in airgun use....
Bob
«
Last Edit: June 27, 2020, 01:49:42 PM by rsterne
»
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Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).
JungleShooter
How ironic 🤦🏼♂️: All my life I had to be a jack-of-all-trades. And now since getting into airgunning all of a sudden they call me an
Expert
Posts: 1750
There is a bug. It's called AG. It bit me! Bad.
Real Name: Matthias
Re: At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding?
«
Reply #4 on:
June 27, 2020, 03:40:51 PM »
Good to hear from you, Bob! I hope you're shielded from this covid craze, tucked away in your town in Canada! 👍🏼
Bob, thanks for the data.
Actually, I saved all your test results from your hollow point expansion tests on
pellets
some years ago. 😄
You performed those tests with great precision and care.
Excellent photos. Really well done. 👍🏼
🔶 I'll use all that for a
Hollow Point Performance Chart
I'm working on.
And your article on hollow point slugs
well sure, I read that they day it came out!! 😄
You probably have no idea how many people have eagerly anticipated your monthly articles, Bob! 👍🏼
That you'll be writing less regulary is just fine, you deserve a break!
Be well! And keep shooting straight!
Matthias
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Lima, PERU
T3PRanch
Vendors
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Posts: 1099
yes
Real Name: Thurmond
Re: At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding?
«
Reply #5 on:
June 27, 2020, 04:36:50 PM »
If you are interested in the minimum possible velocity for reliable expansion, I would contact Talon slugs....
at 29 cents per shot I would NOT use an airgun moving less than 500 grains of lead!
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Near Post,TX, USA
Set your controls for the Heart of the Son!
JungleShooter
How ironic 🤦🏼♂️: All my life I had to be a jack-of-all-trades. And now since getting into airgunning all of a sudden they call me an
Expert
Posts: 1750
There is a bug. It's called AG. It bit me! Bad.
Real Name: Matthias
Re: At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding?
«
Reply #6 on:
June 27, 2020, 05:53:51 PM »
I agree in general, Thurmond 👍🏼
however, some GTA members
don't live in countries that have as reasonable gun laws as the US has
....
so, for me firearms are unfortunately not an option.... 😖
Even then you're right.... Talon's frag slugs are 30c, whereas NSA slugs are 5 cents a pop and
POP do pigeons go
if an NSA hits them
just right
..... 😄
What that
just right
is velocity-wise that's really the topic of this post...! 😄
Matthias
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Lima, PERU
rsterne
Member 2000+fps Club
Bob and Lloyd
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 26920
GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
Real Name: Bob
Re: At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding?
«
Reply #7 on:
June 27, 2020, 11:21:22 PM »
All Hollowpoints are not created equal.... so you will find a huge difference in the velocity it takes to make them expand....
Bob
Logged
Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).
JungleShooter
How ironic 🤦🏼♂️: All my life I had to be a jack-of-all-trades. And now since getting into airgunning all of a sudden they call me an
Expert
Posts: 1750
There is a bug. It's called AG. It bit me! Bad.
Real Name: Matthias
Re: At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding?
«
Reply #8 on:
June 28, 2020, 02:05:10 AM »
Yeah, I'm starting to see that... makes you wonder why H&N and Crosman use such hard lead for their hollow points....
❓Is there ANY pellet maker besides JSB/ Predator (and Daisy 😄) that makes hollow points with
soft lead?
And like you said in your HardAir Magazine article on slug expansion,
the width and depth of the hollow point cup
make a difference, and so does the detachable tip (IF it detaches)....
Matthias
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Lima, PERU
JungleShooter
How ironic 🤦🏼♂️: All my life I had to be a jack-of-all-trades. And now since getting into airgunning all of a sudden they call me an
Expert
Posts: 1750
There is a bug. It's called AG. It bit me! Bad.
Real Name: Matthias
Re: At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding?
«
Reply #9 on:
June 28, 2020, 02:18:54 AM »
How would you compare the expansion of a hollow point
pellet
and a hollow point
slug
?
Observation
Slugs from NSA, H&N, and others have generally a rather
narrow cup
, and often also a rather
shallow cup
.
Both characteristics hinder expansion in quarry.
➔ Q:
Does that mean that slugs need a higher impact velocity than pellets of the same weight but with larger and deeper cups? Or do slugs have something else going for them?
Example (.22cal):
NSA 17.5 vs. H&N Baracuda Hunter 18.52
▪The
Bc Hunter
has a medium wide and deep cup. It delivers a pancake-like expansion in glycerin soap at 600fps target velocity.
▪Would the similarly weighted
NSA 17.5 slug
with a narrow and shallow cup also expand well at that velocity or would it require a higher velocity on impact? 🤔
Matthias
Logged
Lima, PERU
rsterne
Member 2000+fps Club
Bob and Lloyd
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 26920
GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
Real Name: Bob
Re: At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding?
«
Reply #10 on:
June 28, 2020, 03:30:13 PM »
Buy 'em and try 'em is my only response.... The larger the HP opening, the thinner the lip around it, and the softer the lead, the easier it will open up.... The deeper the HP cavity, the thinner the walls of that cavity, and the softer the lead, the further it will open up.... If the walls are thin enough, they will tear, and the bullet will fragment.... Any of the above may be good, or bad, depending on the use, and size of the target.... and whether you want continued penetration of a single mass, or to "blow up" your target....
Top is wide, deep HP, left is narrow deep HP, and right is wide shallow HP.... Rear view below....
All of the above were from identical .357 BBTs shot at 183 FPE into soap.... The only difference is the HP cavity.... Pretty obvious the top one would be the right choice for varmint hunting, while the bottom right the best choice for big game (deer or hog)....
Bob
Logged
Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).
SteveB
Shooter
Posts: 84
yes
Real Name: Steve
Re: At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding?
«
Reply #11 on:
July 09, 2020, 01:00:55 PM »
I have a fx bobcat mkll 30 it will shoot a 50 grain slug at 819 leaving the barrel. And at 100 yards are hitting 692 average all shot through two chronographs. I've had expansion on squirrels at 100 but not as much as at 50 yards. I have taken coyotes at 90 yards with this set up but stuck to head shots at that distance. I shot one at 35-40 yards broadside and it did not exit with a lung shot. I modify all my slugs I make I either swage a steel ball bearing into them so they basically hit and the lead peels away from the ball bearing and it continues along it's path. Or I cross top all my solid hollow points then re-swage. These will turn into four pedals and a base even at lower velocities. This takes alot more time then buying a tin of pellets but there's a bit of satisfaction knowing they hit harder than a pellet at any yardage due to higher bc of a slug.
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Susanville, CA, USA
JungleShooter
How ironic 🤦🏼♂️: All my life I had to be a jack-of-all-trades. And now since getting into airgunning all of a sudden they call me an
Expert
Posts: 1750
There is a bug. It's called AG. It bit me! Bad.
Real Name: Matthias
Re: At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding?
«
Reply #12 on:
July 10, 2020, 06:24:44 PM »
Thank you both, Bob and Steve, for your input! 👍🏼
🔶Bob, those photos are
beautiful
well, not in the way my wife or a typical woman would use the term but they are
ballistically beautiful
(and good photography, too). 😄
🔶Steve, modifying slugs/ pellets seems just a little too much work for me
but then again, I do a lot of stuff that others might say "too much work, not worth it." So, everyone's got their can-do and won't-do activities.
🔶Just this week I came across
Steve's (AEAC) slug tests
and the differences in expansion between the various slug designs in .22 are
HUGE!
He uses ballistic gelatine (DIY) so his tests are much more trustworthy than clay, play-dough, and water jugs....
I'm in the process of making summaries of the tests to put on the forum, and Steve's is a great start! 👍🏼
And just today I found a
45 yard squirrel hit with a slug
from downtuned Crown the slug
did not expand
another piece of valuable data.
I'll be posting the test summaries in a separate post.
Matthias
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Lima, PERU
JungleShooter
How ironic 🤦🏼♂️: All my life I had to be a jack-of-all-trades. And now since getting into airgunning all of a sudden they call me an
Expert
Posts: 1750
There is a bug. It's called AG. It bit me! Bad.
Real Name: Matthias
Re: At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding?
«
Reply #13 on:
July 12, 2020, 04:50:24 AM »
So, I found some data on the internetz....,
and started a separate thread to collect the slug expansion (and penetration) data.
Photo summaries of slug expansion tests, with data for comparison.
Over here:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=175823
Matthias
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Lima, PERU
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At What Impact Velocities Are HP Slugs Still Expanding?