Making of a Field Target rifle .... From a JSAR Raptor Mini

[dan_house]

note to self:

dont shoot in Scott’s class

[Scotchmo]

Yesterday was doing further fiddling and while rifles holding a fairly tight ES in sequential shooting, if rifles sits for 10+ minuets or more the reg will creep up @ 50/75 psi and the next first shot was going 15-20 fps faster than wanted.
...

I've got a Chinese GURLLEO regulator that is labeled 2800psi output. Actual output pressure appears to be a little over 2700psi when bottle is at 4200psi, and the output pressure is only a little over 2500psi when the bottle drops to 3000psi. Also, the regulator responds slowly (creeps up to pressure). I'll need to do some similar work on this regulator.

Not too much of a problem when operating with a broad "knee". But there does not appear to always be much of a knee with an easy opening balanced valve, where FPE will vary with any pressure changes. Not a bad thing if you can keep pressure constant. Over-driving the hammer seems to broaden the knee, up to a point. Still learning here.

[Motorhead]

Yesterday was doing further fiddling and while rifles holding a fairly tight ES in sequential shooting, if rifles sits for 10+ minuets or more the reg will creep up @ 50/75 psi and the next first shot was going 15-20 fps faster than wanted.
...

I've got a Chinese GURLLEO regulator that is labeled 2800psi output. Actual output pressure appears to be a little over 2700psi when bottle is at 4200psi, and the output pressure is only a little over 2500psi when the bottle drops to 3000psi. Also, the regulator responds slowly (creeps up to pressure). I'll need to do some similar work on this regulator.

Not too much of a problem when operating with a broad "knee". But there does not appear to always be much of a knee with an easy opening balanced valve, where FPE will vary with any pressure changes. Not a bad thing if you can keep pressure constant. Over-driving the hammer seems to broaden the knee, up to a point. Still learning here.

Sadly high flow / quick reset PAINTBALL type regulators have large seat surface areas and seal on a soft spool seat, which is NOT ideal for high precision applications. The only work around i ever came up with was to make sure the bodies sealing surface is flat / true and has no nicks on the sealing surface. then have the spool half of seat being something much harder than the nylon or delrin the factory uses. I replace the spools seat material with PEEK and change up the shape.  Lightly burnish them together then add in the bevels/shims as needed to get the correct set point back.

[Motorhead]

UPDATE ..... First match shot last saturday.

I had back a few weeks pulled the balanced valve internals OUT and replaced with a conventional poppet with cobra spring set up * see post 39 link * . Kept the SSG and light hammer finding my >20 fpe power on just a 1000 psi set point. Had taken off the 4.5k CF bottle replacing it with 3k 400 aluminum being it fit the JSAR adjustable regulator.
Shot cycle a very crisp SNAP with es values +/- 3 fps.  accurate as heck so figured we had a good tune going and gave it no further thought ... UNTIL after shooting last Saturdays club FT match.

Had taken @ 20+ or so practice shots before the match and then shot the 58 shot match so comfortable is saying 80 shots give or take. Had started off with exactly 3k in the guns 400cc bottle and when match was done HAD ONLY USED 400 psi ... WHOA !! * Now this is with those really nice 1 1/2" precision gauges that I've proven quite accurate.

Into Lloyd's efficiency calculator we entered 400cc bottle, 3K start, 2.6k finish, 13.7 weight @ 800 fps ..... Efficiency a WHOPPING 2.32 avg FPE/cuin per shot

I'm not so sure about this being it is so non typical .. just crazy efficiency and will keep an eye on it and see how it does with some more testing.  I've just replaced the bottle with a Ninja 13cc which is @ 213 cc &
this should make seeing the air use more precise and able to get a more definitive look at what happening.

AND ... how the gun shoot ?  match was 58 shots, Top 3 scores shot were 52/51/50  & own the 50.  Not to bad for a first outing 

Scott

[ranchibi]

Scott, that is outstanding! Great tuning work and efficiency...whoa! Congratulations on your 50 score.

[UnderPressure]

Into Lloyd's efficiency calculator we entered 400cc bottle, 3K start, 2.6k finish, 13.7 weight @ 800 fps ..... Efficiency a WHOPPING 2.32 avg FPE/cuin per shot

Nice! That is 15% better than the top of the highest range given by Lloyd in the link below:

http://www.calc.sikes.us/1/

P.S. This is with the Cobra Valve right? The valve that oldpro used to get less than .7% ES with his Raptor--> https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=173217.0

[Motorhead]

Into Lloyd's efficiency calculator we entered 400cc bottle, 3K start, 2.6k finish, 13.7 weight @ 800 fps ..... Efficiency a WHOPPING 2.32 avg FPE/cuin per shot

Nice! That is 15% better than the top of the highest range given by Lloyd in the link below:

http://www.calc.sikes.us/1/

P.S. This is with the Cobra Valve right? The valve that oldpro used to get less than .7% ES with his Raptor--> https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=173217.0

I have no clue what Travis's "Cobra" parts look like or any detailed specifics
Understand that the original concept came from Travis and he shared it with me letting me go nuts with the tech, and in his words we BOTH shared the R&D with myself doing most of the odd gun application being dubbed the Cobra King ... Lol

Yes my Raptor Mini using the OEM valve body with custom Cobra tech guts of my own specification / manufacture was in use this past weekend.

Scott


My thread on the subject here: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139401.msg1402661#msg1402661

[Motorhead]

Second match now shot with the JSAR FTS ..... Nevada State FT Championships.  I shot the rifle both days to give it a fair and unbiased thrashing.
Saturday was super windy and was too little too late in realizing just how crazy of target holds offs were required.  Days end was in the 4th ranking Hunter PCP position.   Sunday from @ 10-12 o'clock winds were less and everyone was knocking down more targets, self included.
After noon the winds howled once more and we're only 1/2 way threw the course !!   Time to get windage hold creative and seriously dope the wind !!   Come days end set the HIGH day score from either day and secured a 3rd place finish ... shooting the .20 cal JSAR Raptor Mini FTS.

I am REALLY liking this gun as now modified and configured .... In this past weekends adventure in NEVADA it allowed stable and controlled shots i would have had difficulty with shooting my regular FT rifles.

BAD AZZ little rifle ... odd looker but a fine shooter !!

Scott S     

[mackeral5]

That's awesome, hard to argue with results!

 Do you feel the 5mm gave you any sort of edge in those conditions.

[ranchibi]

Scott, congratulations! That is some fine shooting in tough conditions. Your handiwork shows in your Raptor Mini’s performance in the field!

[Motorhead]

That's awesome, hard to argue with results!

 Do you feel the 5mm gave you any sort of edge in those conditions.

Been shooting 5mm ( .20 ) for @ 5 years now in FT .... While a .177 shooting JSB Monster 13.43's can do equally well for some ... the .20 cal has by in large been by in large somewhat a silver bullet personally

[KnifeMaker]

Well, I for one admire the looks of the gun. I wonder how this tech would fair in a high power slug configuration.


 I am still shooting the Mini without the balance chamber and getting very good results with much less leaking now. If it should give issues, I will go with the non delrin seat, just true the alu. base and make a peek poppet with the concave sealing surface as you suggested.


Sure won't hurt to try it out! I did learn that running both a spring inside the chamber and an additional spring on the outside of the poppet shaft hat rides in the chamber stopped the leeks.. It seems I may have been wrong as to what was causing the issue all along. I was suspecting only the o ring under the seat and or the o ring in the balance chamber. With the o ring removed, the thru hole in the poppet stem closed, and the two springs, she seals tight!


At first there was still a very slow leak. I put a one coil longer spring on the outside of the balance chamber side of the poppet and that gave enough force to seal it right away. Woo-Hoo!!! Seems I need to test this same set-up with the balance chamber active as well.



Knife/Mike

[Motorhead]

Bit of an update on a few fronts ….

Recent club Shoot w/18 shooters … 4 way tie on top score 54/58 hanging with a Daystate Redwolf, THOMAS. STEYR LG-110

The Little Raptor Mini FTS is playing with the big boys w/o issue.

 AIR USE … Club shoot yesterday filled to 3K on the 13cuin bottle (212cc) after a few practice shots plus the match being @ 70 shots used @ 850 psi

So the average FPE/cuin per shot is running @ 1.8 which is more in line to what expected with early testing. On the larger bottle it was to difficult to really nail down what efficiency was. Now we know more definitively.

 * So the good news is with IMO still some "dang" good efficiency on the little Ninja 13 bottle and regulator set point at 1000 psi …. a whopping @ 166 shots per fill at just shy of 20 FPE .   Absolutely No Need for large bottle in this application … None !

Scott S

[Motorhead]

Oregon State FT Championship this past weekend .... The JSAR Raptor Mini FTS continues to impress with it's capabilities & consistency. 2nd place finish in Hunter PCP.

Am thinking the configuration it is at currently is about IDEAL for a Hunter class shooter or an open shooter who shoots the dead man position. ( non adj hamster )

[Gear_Junkie]

Oregon State FT Championship this past weekend .... The JSAR Raptor Mini FTS continues to impress with it's capabilities & consistency. 2nd place finish in Hunter PCP.

Am thinking the configuration it is at currently is about IDEAL for a Hunter class shooter or an open shooter who shoots the dead man position. ( non adj hamster )

Great shooting with that little beastie, congrats Scott!

[oldpro]

 That a Boy Scott!!!! Heck Ya!

[KnifeMaker]

Now that's hanging in there with some might rarefied hardware Scott! Red Wolf, Tomas, Steyr all are fine examples of AirGunning perfection. Really does my mind good to see a Raptor in the running with the best of the best!


I  went back to the balance chamber version. I had forgotten that Travis first suggested nothing more than a stronger spring in the chamber. Worked alnd has been working for a few thousand shots so far. Woo-Hoo!


I fitted the first some what available, (Not really) FX STX "Heavy" Slug Liner over the last three days. Holy Batman! Man this things shoots my 31.4 gr slugs like a pinpoint laser! Very impressive!! +


Congrats Scott. I love it when a plan comes together!!!!


Mike

[Motorhead]

JSAR ... Well word is JACOB ( Owner of Rogue Energies / JSAR ) has or is in the process of selling the Air Gun business to one of his machinists.  The machine shop where these were being manufactured is closing shop and production of parts to be outsourced.  JSAR's future is in someones else's hands now so my R&D is likely gone like leafs in the wind !!

While I had support all of the 2020 FT season ... ZERO interest was expressed back to me in sharing outside my posts or coming back into house for spearheading a production FTS Raptor.


We're officially done, tho keeping the rifle to use as my .177 caliber SLUGGER running @ 38 fpe .... Wowzer bad azz little ice pick !!!

[oldpro]

 Give Matt a little bit buddy he needs time to get things ironed out and production up to speed at the new location then I bet he circles back to you. You have been a asset to them so I can’t see why he wouldn’t. I’ll put my two cents in if that’s worth anything. As for the Raptor.177 it’s amazing and probably my favorite gun right now with the Nielsen Ammo. I can’t wait for squirrel season!!! Matt’s a good guy and will make a go of it, I’ve been in constant contact with him threw the buy out and I think he has a good game plan and most importantly finances to make it happen.

[Bob Pratl]

Give Matt a little bit buddy he needs time to get things ironed out and production up to speed at the new location then I bet he circles back to you. You have been a asset to them so I can’t see why he wouldn’t. I’ll put my two cents in if that’s worth anything. As for the Raptor.177 it’s amazing and probably my favorite gun right now with the Nielsen Ammo. I can’t wait for squirrel season!!! Matt’s a good guy and will make a go of it, I’ve been in constant contact with him threw the buy out and I think he has a good game plan and most importantly finances to make it happen.

Travis, thanks for the update, it's encouraging to know that there will be a source of parts and future updates.
So far I'm very pleased with my .257 raptor and I have not experience any down time. It will be great if Matt gets the needed
technical support.