Brand new Diana 54 concern

[MadameLucifer]

Hi everyone,

I'm seeking knowledgeable people to put me right on what to expect on a brand new D54.

The story:

I finally decided to buy a brand new quality rifle, in this case the above mentioned one.
I've received it before Christmas at my local freight company.
When arrived home, shot it straight out of the box with Crosman Premier hunting pellet. Shot like a dream, no adjustment needed on the open sights.
Is it usual from these guns to come with factory adjusted sights?
Put my cheap 4-12x40 used scope of my gamo on it to try the accuracy on longer distance  (42m) could hit walnuts so I was a happy customer. As expected a couple of weeks and 500 pellets later the scope was gone, couldn't hit the target on 15m. Tok it of and after heaps of reading I decided to buy a more appropriate scope for the beast.
Got a brand new Hawke 4-12x40 also a Sportsmatch dampa mount. Centered the scope on a mirror, mounted on the gun and shot it.
The pellet landed approx 100mm left and 100mm low on 17m!
And the reticle was shaking like it got hit by a train.
After 5 shots that all went left and low I removed the scope to see what could be wrong.
Tried the centered scope with the same mount on the gamo (full power) no issues and only a few clicks away from the POI.
Back to the 54.
Shot it  again with the iron sight, no problem at all.
By looking at the back sight I realized that it was adjusted 1 line to the right, centered it to see where it lands and pellets went 60mm to the left on the 17m target.
That tells me that the barrel must've been bent before it started it's journey.
After a longer examination I found a few other flaws.

1.The pin connecting the cocking arm to the cocking link seems to be too long and scratching the stock as the action moves.
2. Also the metal part that resets the slide at the end of the cocking stroke is rubbing against the cocking arm.
3. Actually the whole action is kind of having a lateral rocking movement in the stock.
4. Also there is an interesting wider extrusion on the sliding chamber approx 60mm back of its front. It's a clearly visible mark on it as it rubs against the action through cocking.
5. It seems like the pins through the action at the back aren't fully knocked in.

So these are the issues I've experienced.
I'm hoping that someone with more experience can tell me what of these are to expect and what's not.

Kind Regards from down under.

[MadameLucifer]

More pictures that wouldn't fit in the post.

[dtdtdtdt]

I'm not the greatest air rifle mechanic.  HE (Hector Medina) posts here all the time and will probably chime in as soon as he sees your problems.

 
1. The pin connecting the cocking arm to the cocking link seems to be too long and scratching the stock as the action moves.
2. Also the metal part that resets the slide at the end of the cocking stroke is rubbing against the cocking arm.
3. Actually the whole action is kind of having a lateral rocking movement in the stock.
4. Also there is an interesting wider extrusion on the sliding chamber approx 60mm back of its front. It's a clearly visible mark on it as it rubs against the action through cocking.
5. It seems like the pins through the action at the back aren't fully knocked in.


1.& 2.  There shouldn't be any contact enough to scratch the stock anywhere. Scratches mean something is not assembled properly or screws are loose.

3.  The floating recoil system allows some rocking and motion of the metal bits relative to the stock.  That is normal.  However it could indicate loose screws or incorrect assembly of the stock to the action.

4.  Don't know what you mean here.  Someone else may be familiar with it.

5.  Tap the pins to center them in the tube.  This isn't a real problem as they are held in tension by the mainspring.  This is only an appearance issue unless they contact something.

MY suggestions. 

1.  Investigate binding and misassemble first!!!! Take the stock off and examine the "recoilless assembly.  There should be two fairly large metal washers and a rubber washer on the back screw near the trigger.  They should be installed steel-rubber-steel.  The front screws should have two washers with the metal plate attached to the wood stock serving as one washer.  They should be assembled metal plate-rubber-steel.   Look over the assembly.  These washers should keep the metal action/barrel assembly from touching any wood parts.  (When I got mine years ago, the washers had been shuffled and I got binding at the front of the stock.  Correct assembly took care of the it.). The goal is no binding of wood to steel. I put an additional washer in each place to see what impact it had on the binding I was seeing.  Once I got it figured out, I didn't have any more problems and didn't need the extra washers. If you didn't get an assembly drawing look on line for any of several you-tube and other sites that describe assembly and disassembly.   

When cocking there is a spring-loaded ball in the rear assembly that holds the action forward after cocking.  Movement with the rifle un-cocked should be fairly easy.  When the rifle is cocked the ball in its dimple keeps the action forward.  The action recoils about 1cm on firing.  You can see and measure just below the safety lever. 
   
2.  Make sure the screws are tight. For stock to action about 20in-lb of torque is about right.  You can tighten and loosen to see what impact that might have on your accuracy.   Since it shot OK to start with, it seems likely that after 500+ shots something has loosened up.  Using a torque wrench helps you be consistent but many people find they need a bit of Loctite (thread lock) to keep them snug (use the Blue that can be released with screwdrivers as the Red one is PERMANENT! and a real bugger to get loose later on.  If you don't have access to a small torque wrench, snug them up until you are comfortable.  DON'T tighten them so much that the screws get damaged!!! 

3.  Some action rocking around is disconcerting but normal.  The important bit is to have the scope and mounts installed and assembled properly along with the screws torqued to proper levels so they don't move relative to the barrel and action.  Scope ring screws in aluminum rings and bases should be torqued to about 15in-llb carefully to make the rings sit evenly on the scope.  Base screws that clamp to the base rail on the rifle should be around 25-30in-lb.  Your bases should have recoil pins that mate with the holes in the base rail.  Make sure they are in the holes and aren't touching the bottom of the hole in the rail otherwise the ring base be allowing the rings to rock.   Installed properly, the rings should be even all around and show no movement at all!!

As for scope adjustment and possiblility of bent barrels.  Many of the more knowledgeable shooters Like to have their scopes adjusted so the cross-hairs are perfectly centered in the optical axis of the scope for most accuracy.  They then regulate the rifle by bending the barrel to match the center of the scope optical axis.  This takes more knowledge and courage than I have.!!

There is also the issue of parallax adjustment with your AO scopes.  This can cause poorer accuracy too.  As an experienced shooter you probably know all that though.  If not, I suggest going to the sharpshooters.com website for a quick education on air guns (less detail that some others but a much easier read!). On their site they have a column at the right-hand side of articles about air rifle shooting reading them top-to-bottom with give you a fair understanding of most the issues involved in air rifle shooting. 

However, for general plinking shooting - not serious competition - this is gilding a lily.  Your scope should have sufficient adjustment capacity to do just fine with 10 cm of adjustment to get you on center at 17m.  There could also be a problem with chosen pellets.  If you are using lead-free pellets that shoot at "high" velocity some of them don't shoot straight at all.  I had some that were 10cm off while my rifle's favorite pellets were dead on.  The velocities for the lead-free were in excess of 1200f/s.  You mention a Gamo.  They seem. to stress high velocity more than others.  I find that around 850-900f/s gives best accuracy with my 54s.  I tested over 80 different pellets with my .177 54 a few years ago.  You should be able to find that information on this site by searching on pellet testing and my name DTDTDTDT

Scope damage.  Well, the 54 is well known as a scope eater!!!  If the scope performs well on the Gamo but not on the 54, I suspect something loose as noted above.  If the Hawke scope has been damaged by the 54 in a few shots - talk to Hawke about a warranty claim.  They are supposed to be good about their warranty service.  However, you indicate that the scope worked OK on the Gamo after being on the 54.  Further evidence that something is loose!! 

I personally prefer the RWS/Diana ZR mount that allows the scope to recoil in the mount to avoid damage to the scopes.  I have two and both work perfectly.  I am not familiar with the Sportmatch rings but understand that they are considered the gold standard for air guns.  I have heard of the Dampa version but haven't studied on how they work.

Good luck

[HectorMedina]

Hi everyone,

I'm seeking knowledgeable people to put me right on what to expect on a brand new D54.

The story:

I finally decided to buy a brand new quality rifle, in this case the above mentioned one.
I've received it before Christmas at my local freight company.
When arrived home, shot it straight out of the box with Crosman Premier hunting pellet. Shot like a dream, no adjustment needed on the open sights.
Is it usual from these guns to come with factory adjusted sights?
Put my cheap 4-12x40 used scope of my gamo on it to try the accuracy on longer distance  (42m) could hit walnuts so I was a happy customer. As expected a couple of weeks and 500 pellets later the scope was gone, couldn't hit the target on 15m. Tok it of and after heaps of reading I decided to buy a more appropriate scope for the beast.
Got a brand new Hawke 4-12x40 also a Sportsmatch dampa mount. Centered the scope on a mirror, mounted on the gun and shot it.
The pellet landed approx 100mm left and 100mm low on 17m!
And the reticle was shaking like it got hit by a train.
After 5 shots that all went left and low I removed the scope to see what could be wrong.
Tried the centered scope with the same mount on the gamo (full power) no issues and only a few clicks away from the POI.
Back to the 54.
Shot it  again with the iron sight, no problem at all.
By looking at the back sight I realized that it was adjusted 1 line to the right, centered it to see where it lands and pellets went 60mm to the left on the 17m target.
That tells me that the barrel must've been bent before it started it's journey.
After a longer examination I found a few other flaws.

1.The pin connecting the cocking arm to the cocking link seems to be too long and scratching the stock as the action moves.
2. Also the metal part that resets the slide at the end of the cocking stroke is rubbing against the cocking arm.
3. Actually the whole action is kind of having a lateral rocking movement in the stock.
4. Also there is an interesting wider extrusion on the sliding chamber approx 60mm back of its front. It's a clearly visible mark on it as it rubs against the action through cocking.
5. It seems like the pins through the action at the back aren't fully knocked in.

So these are the issues I've experienced.
I'm hoping that someone with more experience can tell me what of these are to expect and what's not.

Kind Regards from down under.

Kia Ora!

Puzzled by the "Nick" and still a male name but . . . to each its own.

My question to you would be: żDid someone disassemble the gun?
There is usually enough clearance at these spots, but some customers think there is an unsightly gap between action and stock and try to reduce the clearance between sliding action and stock.

What you show is USUALLY the result of a mis-assembled rifle or someone changing on purpose the stock to action gaps.
OR , the rubber/steel washers combinations were not installed in the proper way.

This results in:
Insufficient space at the rear and "rubbing" of the cocking level linkage pin.
Loose "bedding"
Erratical POI

Let's start at the beginning and go from here.

Keep well and shoot straight!







HM

[MadameLucifer]

Thank you for your kind reply, appreciated.


I've only owned this brand new rifle for about 6 weeks and assume if I rip into it I would void the warranty (as it says in the wee booklet that came with it). If it would be a second hand, old one I would have no doubt and would love to take it apart to take the challenge and see that beautiful engineering with my own eyes that i've only seen on online pictures yet.
(Have done it with my Gamo that I've purchased damaged and only cost a 10th of what the new 54 is worth)


If the rifle have been disassembled?

I can't answer that. If that happened it must've happened before I've got it. I've certainly didn't do it, only read about it to find the solutions on my issues.

4.  Don't know what you mean here.  Someone else may be familiar with it.

You can see it in the 4th picture in the first post. The bright spot on the sliding chamber looks like a wear mark.
Trying to get an other picture of it.

The rifle still shoots great and accurate with the Crosman pellets (14.198 gr) and it's open sights when that is adjusted as it came in the box.

But when I dial it to it's mechanical zero the POI shifts to the left as it does with the centered scope too.

After my readings on the forum I realized that if I adjust the scope by clicking both turrets out to their limits (POI 100mm left and low) I would take of the tension of the spring that is holding the erector tube and exposing the scope to damage. That must've happened with my cheap one. Turrets were way out to their limits. (I tok the damaged rattling scope apart and fund the blade spring loose in it making the noise. That is now in the bin ). That's why I',m not keen to adjust the Hawke, just test shot it. Few clicks of adjustment for POI is a must but couple of turns of the same is obviously not.

I'll attach a few more pictures showing the chamber with the mark and showing the iron site setup as it arrived to me and as it's making the gun shoot accurate still.

Any picture I've seen on the compression chambers online are showing a nice even outer surface so when there is a such rub mark on it tells me that something must going on there too.

I am still very keen to know for learning what is wrong with it and I can also start checking the screws with my F.A.T. wrench but after reading Hector's post, I feel more like I want to send it back for a replacement. After all it was purchased as a brand new gun that shouldn't have any issues.


I've just shot it again with the centered scope mounted, attaching the A4 size target.
As you can se both the gun and the scope are consistent just not lining up with each other and the mil dot reticle still shaking big time. My opinion is, that the POI should be closer to the center of the scope on the windage. I could accept a barrel droop as I read that german guns usually have it and I can get a ZR mount that have droop compensation. Would that compensate for the 130mm (approx 5") droop on this distance or that is too much to ask.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge

Love this forum even more now!

[WHITEFANG]

My 2 cents are as Hector, you will have wear in all new guns as parts mate. Normal on many guns.

On the wood I will say years ago Diana had issues with the depth that the action sit in the stock. Not limited to the 54. As mentioned the shimming of the action to the stock should fix rubbing. This applies to the other post as well on action rubbing stock.

On a 54 I had the stock bound up the sledge and after much inspection the problem was the rear trigger guard attachment had to be shimmed between the stock and action. This is the attachment that threads into the trigger housing. Also Here if the attachment bolt is too long the gun will not cock.
On non 54 guns the tightness caused the safety to be pushed in but was hard or almost impossible to take out of safety. The rear cap was being pushed up binding the trigger and safety. Shimming fixed all the Diana guns I have had or worked.
The other thing you mentioned is the iron sights. Remember that the bore is not perfectly centered vs the OD of the barrel plus you have machining of parts that can throw off sights. Front sight is fixed so the rear has to do all the windage adj but does the elevation as the front. Plus not 2 people hold the guns the same. Another good reason to have a parallax adj scope.
 
Nothing like the upkeep of a sledge gun. LOL But as close to a pcp you can get in a spring gun.
 JMO

[dtdtdtdt]

Thank you for your kind reply, appreciated.


I've only owned this brand new rifle for about 6 weeks and assume if I rip into it I would void the warranty (as it says in the wee booklet that came with it). If it would be a second hand, old one I would have no doubt and would love to take it apart to take the challenge and see that beautiful engineering with my own eyes that i've only seen on online pictures yet.
(Have done it with my Gamo that I've purchased damaged and only cost a 10th of what the new 54 is worth)


If the rifle have been disassembled?

I can't answer that. If that happened it must've happened before I've got it. I've certainly didn't do it, only read about it to find the solutions on my issues.

I don't consider taking the stock off disassembly in the sense of warranty.  If you start taking bits apart and modifying them, yes! 

Washers and shims might solve a lot of the issues.  Whitefang has seen many more than I but I had binding on my first 54 (used) that I solved by puzzling out the washer / rubber washer arrangement.

Another thing related to the rubber washer, if you torque the stock screws to powder firearm levels the rubber washer gets so compressed it can't do its job of cushioning the movement of the action relative to the stock.  Overtightening there might also be causing some of the binding and scraping.

You might loosen those screws and re-tighten them with your FAT wrench to about 20in/lb.  That should be enough to keep them steady.  As noted, over-tightening them can affect accuracy too.  Experiment with that torque when you get your sight problem fixed. 

As for alignment of the scope and sights, that might be result of damage in shipping somewhere along the way.  If the iron sight was properly adjusted when you got it, it suggests that Diana sighted it in or that someone else bought and returned the rifle to the vendor after experiencing the same issues you have. Some US vendors at least are suspected of selling returns as "new" to the next customer without correcting issues.  Suggest you talk to your source for the gun about that.  Given your location is delivery time and schedule a problem?   

I use a Wheeler FAT wrench all the time and keep one in my range bag.  I also have a much fancier one that my son (in the tool business) got me that I used to check the FAT wrench.  The FAT was accurate enough for most any purpose.

Good luck

[fwbsport]

Well I hate to admit it but I never thought to tighten the D54 .20 screws on Hector's rifle and I shot up a whole can of pellets lubed by him!

When he got the rifle back the stock screw was loose and that was a kind remark by him to tell me that checking screws on a D54 is just as important if not more than checking screws on other rifles.

I never noticed the POI change though and never thought to check!

[dtdtdtdt]

fwbsport:

That shows that the stock to metal contact with the recoilless mechanism is less sensitive to stock attachment.  If you didn't see a POI shift it was probably OK in any case.  With the recoilless system, the stock is used mostly to get the action to your face steadily so you can shoot it rather than having significant impact on the accuracy.  Granted your hold keeps the wobble down so you can hit the target!!!

My starting point as a powder shooter is to have the stock solid to the rifle action and barrel.  We used to call it COWBOY tight which is tight enough and then more!!  When I got a torque wrench, I found I was using way too tight!!!

In all the tests I did, I didn't see much shift but did see some binding in certain combinations. 

[WHITEFANG]

Ya Cowboy tight is tight. Once you ever get into torque factors with a torque wrench you really see just how much over torque you put on anything.
Scopes really need to be tightened per scope specs and mounts.

As to warranty? Imo you already are 6 weeks into the gun. 90 days maybe the seller would take it back. But you can be out shipping both ways. Just depends?
As to removing the stock I would not worry about warranty void.
Yes the rubber is a bandaid but can work.

The sledge is independent vs the the stock tightening but too tight can bind the sledge.
Stock attactments must always be checked. Temp changes and recoil of metal vs polymer or wood can change.
I'm not Mr Diana but in the old days I had a heard of them. D350 IN all calibers at one time. D48/52 the same and the D 54 in . 177/.22 plus the same in the D460.
I've got pics to back this up.
All were built out OF the box new. Nothing but test for function and torn down or even barrels yanked and replaced with LW AFTER testing.

The gun will wear in. If no poi changes you should be good. Even new guns end up assembled with damaged piston seals and over lubed.
The D54 is a fine gun. But does IMO require attention to. They are shooters when correct.

[fwbsport]

This is all good to know whitefang and dt!

I agree the D54 is a fine springer--I had always wanted to try one out for decades for the heck of it!  The Recoiless system fascinated me--that "sled" underneath the whole action to make it recoiless. 

I was shooting to the right of Hector's zero by an inch at 25 yards and clicked it there with one adjustment--never knew if Hector found a change in impact by 1" to left!

Anyway, shooting one before getting one is kind of necessary.  I had to shoot about 50 pellets just to get my own cocking and SAFETY right! Once that Safety is pushed forward that rifle is highly dangerous!  It shoots like a lazer.  So does my .20 HW80.

[HectorMedina]

Kia Ora!

OK Zoltan,

We're getting somewhere.

It is NOT part of DIANA protocol to sight in a gun before shipping. Guns are tested for function, MV, and group at 10 meters ONCE. MV goes into the electronic files that all guns have under their SN. It is a legal thing. DIANA has to ensure that if they are blamed for an overpowered gun, they can trace at what power level the gun left the factory. Remember DIANA sells guns under 7 DIFFERENT power levels requirements all over the world.

If your gun had the iron sights in the correct place (as you show in the pictures), then that was not a new gun. Someone had sighted it in.

I would greatly appreciate if you could send me a PM with the Serial #.

The CORRECT order of washers (from the bottom/sled units  ->  up) in the gun (when the gun is TRIGGER UP on a bench muzzle facing AWAY from you) is as follows:

FRONT: Steel/Rubber/Steel
Back: Steel/Rubber

At the rear of the stock there is a metal plate that acts as the third washer.

Once you put the stock back from above (remember the gun is upside down), you can screw the stock screws. Somewhere between 15 and 22 in-lbs you will find the optimum torque for YOUR gun.
BEFORE assembling the stock to the action, use some "Vibratite" in the screws, let the screws (and the rubber washers) rest stress-less for a day or two, then assemble, this will allow the neoprene and the Vibratite to gain the desired characteristics.
Start LOW on the torque and go up EVENLY, little by little. (steps of 2 in-lbs is as good as most torque wrenches will detect).
Once assembled check the clearances of the pins and rear plastic "shield" to the stock, clearance SHOULD be between 1 and 1.5   mm's.

Use a DROOPED mount, either the RWS Lock-Down mount or the DIANA ZR mount. If your scopes are 1" let me know and send me your postal address in a PM.

ALL airguns need droop mounts, even PCP's. It's just a question of the short ranges and taller LOS of the modern scoped airgun. MOST droop mounts correct to 4 mrads so, at 17 meters (pretty close to the first zero for a 30 meter second zero) you should be dead on.  BUT your 5" is way too much, the drooped mounts will correct about 68 mm's over the 17 meters (4X17=68).
Now, MOST cheap scopes do NOT have their axes aligned, so the difference between mechanical axis and optical axis may be the rest of the correction you need, or not. I would strongly suggest a better scope (SIGHTRON SIH FT sells here for about $200 and it will be a "forever" scope).

If you know a good airgunsmith in NZ, you might want to have the barrel "regulated" to the scope and mounts you settle to down the line. Right now the main thing is to make sure the rifle is back to working specs as far as the bedding is concerned. NO RATTLING is allowed.
IF after waiting out the day or two with the rubber washers NOT compressed, you see that the gap is still too small, then you will need to add some fender washers to ensure that the sled system is tight, but that the action runs smoothly on the sled units without ANY bind.

Keep us posted!







HM

Wear marks are normal. Avoidable, if you take the time to re-do the inside of your mechanisms tube, but that is not common. The more common thing is to simply allow parts to mat to each other through wear.
IF you can, get some Ultimox 226 OIL and use it. You do not need to disassemble the gun, just a few drops here and there where you see rub marks like the one shown in the picture and the oil will start burnishing Teflon into the steel.
Do NOT use ANY oil inside the compression chamber!

[dtdtdtdt]

Hector:

Thanks for correcting my forgetfulness in my dotage!!!!! 


"The CORRECT order of washers (from the bottom/sled units  ->  up) in the gun (when the gun is TRIGGER UP on a bench muzzle facing AWAY from you) is as follows:

FRONT: Steel/Rubber/Steel
Back: Steel/Rubber"

I have them right in my guns but said it wrong in my response.!!!!

Sorry for adding to the confusion.

Zoltan:  Listen to HECTOR!!!!!

By the way,  I have used both of the bases Hector recommends.  My ZR's are ones that Hector tuned!  As for the scope, I have the Sightron he recommends it is a real treat to use!!!  I also have a Hawke that does just fine on my .177 Diana 54 so it will work too if the mounts are right.  (I have a ZR on that one too!

My FWB300 has a Clearridge scope that works well with the low power FWB.  It has been in service for at least 8 years while the Hawke and Sightron have both been in use at least 3 years without a problem or funky zeroing issues.

Good luck!!



Dave Thomas