Expected Accuracy from NP Airguns? What am I doing wrong?

[Eddie_E]

There is no 100% method for the artillery hold. If it works and it's repeatable, then it's the right way.THe tight hold is rare on any of the Crosman NP models though. I know several Hatsan 125 Sniper shooters and a few ASP 20 shooters prefer a firm hold as well.

[mafatone]

I'm assuming the rifle is new. A must is to clean the barrel. They put that protective grease in it to prevent rust. 2nd is put 1 or 2 drops of Pellgun oil down the hole in the breech in front of the piston. It may be dry and fluctuating your FPS. 3rd is to ditch those Daisy pellets. Get quality pellets like H&N, JSB, etc. Even if you pay $15 for a tin of quality pellets, it still comes to $.03 a shot. If all of the above mentioned doesn't work, you can re-crown and lap the barrel. That's what worked for me. Let us know how your results.

[Blowpipe Sam]

I had a nitro piston Prowler that I exchanged because I just could not get it to group.  I don't currently have a nitro piston gun but I do have three gas piston guns. I also do not shoot well from a bench. I zero my guns from the seated unsupported position.  I will hunt with a gun that I can shoot 3/4" groups (in .22) with. I find that my effective range is now 30 yards after 18 months of practice.  Up from roughly 20 yards when I started shooting break barrel guns.  I will take boiler room shots on small game but only with a .22 or larger.  Hunting with a dog makes a difference in this instance.  I recently bought a Hatsan 125.  I hope to extend my range out to 40 yards.  I agree with the common thread of all these posts.  Buy quality pellets and practice.

[tektrixter]

Wayne, since most springers and gas piston rifles are hold sensitive you will at some time have to ditch the card table. You will not be shooting from it when hunting so you are going to eventually have to practice the way you will shoot in the field. Why not practice from a shooting stick of some type. I use a Primos trigger stick. And always have a hand between the rest and rifle. While I can shoot some pretty impressive groups with mine but they open up to a shotgun pattern if I rest the rifle on the trigger stick. Just make sure you have some space for the gun to recoil and not have the trigger guard hit the trigger stick rest.

I'll be doing mostly target shooting, with some occasional hunting. Once I know what factors this airgun needs to shoot accurately I'll move away from the table. I do practice some offhand and sitting too.

[Xraycer]

Dont pull it tight to your shoulder

+1

That was what my issue was with shooting breakbarrels. You need to hold the gun as loose as possible without dropping it.

Once again, it goes to show that not everything is set in stone. My 2 Trail NP2 requires that my butt stock is pressed up fairly tight against my shoulder, while my Diana 48 and 2 other break barrels does not.

How accurate are NPs? I'm mainly a plinker, but with my NP2, I can sit with my elbows resting on my knees, and take out paintballs 25yd out, about 70% of the time........using cheapo Crosman hollow points.

Wayne, try to steer clear of pointy pellets. They're just not necessary for hunting, and they tend to be less accurate than domes.  Dome pellets will get the job done just as effectively, if not better. I highly recommend JSB for Crosman guns.

[Buldawg76]

You have been given good advice here from everyone as far as holding the gun but none have mentioned checking if the barrel is possibly loose in the fork of the receiver tube. To check cock the gun and return the barrel to a 90 degree position with the butt of the gun on your leg pointing straight up vertical. With the barrel at 90 degrees in a horizontal position it should stay where you place it or very slowly fall back to fully cocked position. If it will not stay in place or falls rapidly of its own weight it may need the barrel pivot screw tightened enough to prevent it from moving freely.

You can also try to move the barrel from side to side when its fully latched closed while securing the gun as there should be no side to side movement at all. If there is it will greatly affect your ability to get decent groups regardless of holds you try.

BD

[nced]

What groups are "normal" for a NP springer in 22 caliber? I've seen everything from people saying it's no good past 20 yards, to people claiming to hit dimes at 40 yards.

I got a Crosman nitro Venom a few months ago. So far I've replaced the scope (with an airgun rated one) and done the RC bearing trigger mod. I still cant manage to keep good groups at 10 or 20 yards from a bench (folding table, stack of wood, rolled sock at top for a bit of give). I'm getting around 1 inch groups at 10 yards and 3-4 inch groups at 20 yards. Sometimes I'll get a good grouping for a few shots, then its all over the place again. Seems to do better at first, then get worse as I shoot more. If I take it out a few hours later it works well for a while again.

I'm experienced with rim fire 22s and have an expert rifle badge form the Marines (a couple of decades ago!) so I know the marksmanship basics and researched airgun specifics. I've tried several variations of the artillery hold, but seems to do better with a light bit of pressure into my shoulder. The front of the airgun is resting just in front of the balance point. I'm using a pellet setter to ensure consistent depth. I've tried a few different cans of pellets (Daisy pointed, Benjamin Destroyers, Crosman Premier pointed, Daisy hollow point) and none seem to work well.

I've read that a lot of the inexpensive airguns have bad piston seals from the factory, could that be the issue? I've noticed that I get a white buildup around the breach seal after shooting, does that indicate anything?

I have very little .22 cal experience with my Beeman R9 only shooting it with a .22 cal barrel for half season, then selling the .22 barrel and reverting back to .177 cal, however,
even with .177 cal I've noticed some things that affected my accuracy.
* Neither my .177 R9 or HW95 "likes" to be benched and my groups opened up when I shot resting the guns on a rolled up towel. Since I've never taken a bench into the "squirrel woods", not shooting from a bench isn't an issue. I do all my shooting sitting on a bucket resting the springers on cross sticks being careful to keep a consistent "shooting form" like this keeping the same "gun resting spot" on the cross sticks.......

I take my "sittin' bucket" full of snacks and drink and cross stick into the woods when "still huntin'" squirrels. Basically, I shoot all field target matches "hunter class style" (bucket and sticks) so almost all my shooting is done the same way. If I'm stalking "early season squirrels" when there are still leaves on the trees I leave the "bucket" at home and only take my cross sticks to provide a gun support if there isn't a "natural rest" available. I limit any "standing shots" to about 20 yards since I'm such a poor offhand shooter (I know my limits LOL).
*For me "pellet choice" has affected my accuracy more than any other reason except when I shot my cheap Chinese clone! Here are some groups I've shot sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks with different pellet brands. First a couple "good groups" with "good pellets" from my .177 R9 and .177 HW95......


Here are a few groups using other pellet brands.
Notice the die lot marked and dated Crosman Premier groups in the upper left corner of the target vs a couple Air Arms dome variants.......

Some groups shot upstairs at only 18 yards.....
18 yard "bucket and sticks" groups using various Daisy pellets from the plastic rotary container. The arrow marks the bull being aimed at and notice that none of the "trick pellets" were acceptably accurate.......


Here I compared .177 Crosman Destroyers to my usual die lot marked and dated Crosman Premier at 18 yards. LOL, the only thing the "Destroyers" destroyed was the accuracy .......


Even high quality pellets like the Air Arms domes can perform with mediocrity from some guns like this 1 1/4" ctc 50 yard group shot after detuning the HW95 to a bit under 12fpe........

* I've read that some never clean their airgun bores but I've had "fouled bores" mess with my groups at times.......


*Some springer designs simply don't make accurate accurate "shooters" unless the tolerances are close.
For example, when trying to find a cheap springer that was close in accuracy to my R9 a .177 Crosman Quest 1000 was bought (Chinese clone of a Gamo 220) and the best accuracy I got was a "can rolling" 1 1/2" ctc at 30 yards. A break down inspection showed that the "Gamo/Diana style" barrel pivot with the barrel pivot bolt going through a barrel pivot sleeve which was through a hole in barrel pivot block was loose fitting. Also, the hole in the sleeve around the pivot bolt and inside the pivot block wasn't concentric. When shooting the loose fitting barrel pivot geometry allowed the loose fitting eccentric sleeve to rotate a bit every few shots throwing off the poi. I later bought a real Gamo 440 and found that even with a trigger insert and home tune components the accuracy was only mediocre shooting the best pellet into 1" ctc groups at 30 yards.

That cured me of "cheap springers" for a few years but I did try another "cheapy" a few years ago when I bought a .177 Remington Express.........

I don't know what the issue was/is but I couldn't group well with the Express either and with it's Gamo/Diana style "bolt in sleeve in barrel pivot block I also got "unacceptable orbiting groups" like these, even with high quality pellets...........

 

[Xraycer]

I'm not sure if anyone has already mentioned, but another strong possibility is the moderator not aligned/seated properly during assembly. Therefore, you would get a slight pellet clipping which would result in very, very poor accuracy. a couple of years ago, I'd purchased an Umarex Surge XT for a clearance price of sub $50, this thing shot all over the place. It has a permanent, simple moderator just like the venom. Once I removed(sawed it off)the moderator, the gun turned out to be an excellent shooter.
In hindsight, what I should have tried first was to run a larger sized drill bit down the throat of that moderator....instead of just sawing it off and permanently destroying it.

[tektrixter]

You have been given good advice here from everyone as far as holding the gun but none have mentioned checking if the barrel is possibly loose in the fork of the receiver tube. To check cock the gun and return the barrel to a 90 degree position with the butt of the gun on your leg pointing straight up vertical. With the barrel at 90 degrees in a horizontal position it should stay where you place it or very slowly fall back to fully cocked position. If it will not stay in place or falls rapidly of its own weight it may need the barrel pivot screw tightened enough to prevent it from moving freely.

You can also try to move the barrel from side to side when its fully latched closed while securing the gun as there should be no side to side movement at all. If there is it will greatly affect your ability to get decent groups regardless of holds you try.

BD

BINGO! When doing the 90 degree test it falls without resistance and there is a degree or so of wobble when I move the barrel back and forth. I'm going to disassemble it and see if I can tighten it up.

[nced]

You have been given good advice here from everyone as far as holding the gun but none have mentioned checking if the barrel is possibly loose in the fork of the receiver tube. To check cock the gun and return the barrel to a 90 degree position with the butt of the gun on your leg pointing straight up vertical. With the barrel at 90 degrees in a horizontal position it should stay where you place it or very slowly fall back to fully cocked position. If it will not stay in place or falls rapidly of its own weight it may need the barrel pivot screw tightened enough to prevent it from moving freely.

You can also try to move the barrel from side to side when its fully latched closed while securing the gun as there should be no side to side movement at all. If there is it will greatly affect your ability to get decent groups regardless of holds you try.

BD

BINGO! When doing the 90 degree test it falls without resistance and there is a degree or so of wobble when I move the barrel back and forth. I'm going to disassemble it and see if I can tighten it up.

Contrary to the old Beeman advice to tighten the break barrel pivot bolt just tight enough to hold the cocked but unlatched barrel holds at any position of the barrel swing before latching. I believe that the "Beeman advice" gives a "too tight" pivot bolt adjustment that adds wear to the barrel pivot shims. When adjusting my HW barrel pivot bolt tension it's loose enough to allow the cocked and unlatched barrel to "just FALL" from any position of the barrel swing. Perhaps all springers don't have the same robust barrel latching mechanism as the HW95 spring loaded "wedge arrangement" and I never concern myself with sideway barrel movement (wobble) between the receiver forks because the latch up is always consistent. Here is the barrel latching mechanism of my HW95 kinda slathered with non-dieseling Dupont Krytox GPL205 "space station grease"...........

[Buldawg76]

Ed
There is a huge difference between the tolerances of an HW and a NP crosman gun in terms of design and execution of the fitment between the barrel block and the receiver forks. For a crosman break barrel to have any chance at repeatable accuracy it is a must that all play be removed between the barrel and the fork. Crosman  B18/19 platform guns use cheap plastic pivot bushing with a steel shim or two between the barrel block and the plastic shim to make up for poor tolerance stack ups.

If the barrel on a crosman is adjusted the same as an HW it will never be capable of hitting the same POI repeatedly with any consistency. The barrel is not adjusted so its over tight in the fork but just enough to prevent any side to side movement when latched closed. The pivot screw also has a taped head that corresponds to the taper of the hole in the left side of the fork so it will only tighten so far before the pivot screws taper and fork hole taper create a friction fit preventing it from loosening during use.

The key to getting the fitment correct between the barrel block and fork is to measure the width of the barrel block with bushing and shims in place and then measure the fork width with the screw installed and tightened securely. Then when you have those two measurements you need to either add or subtract shims so that when it is assembled there should be approx. .003" to .005" preload on the bushing/shims with the pivot screw tightened securely. As an example if the receiver fork width with the pivot screw tight measured .750" than you want the barrel block with bushing/shims to be at .753 to .755" in width so when assembled You have the .003 to .005" preload to keep the barrel from moving in a sideways direction during a shot in order to have any chance of repeatable accuracy from a crosman break barrel.

That's why all my crosman break barrels have bronze bushing sized to each gun individually for the correct barrel to fork clearance fitment.

Definitely to different animals as far as quality and assembly procedures are concerned.

Just my .2 cents and opinion from what I have found works for my cheap B18/19 platform guns. 

BD

[Rocker1]

 All those pellets you have listed havent ever done well in anything I have owned,  by no means saying others havent had good results.  I would bet if you step up to some better pellets HN or JSBS you will see a great difference, and I sure wouldnt  rest the barrel on anything. David

[nced]

Ed
There is a huge difference between the tolerances of an HW and a NP crosman gun in terms of design and execution of the fitment between the barrel block and the receiver forks. For a crosman break barrel to have any chance at repeatable accuracy it is a must that all play be removed between the barrel and the fork. Crosman  B18/19 platform guns use cheap plastic pivot bushing with a steel shim or two between the barrel block and the plastic shim to make up for poor tolerance stack ups.

If the barrel on a crosman is adjusted the same as an HW it will never be capable of hitting the same POI repeatedly with any consistency. The barrel is not adjusted so its over tight in the fork but just enough to prevent any side to side movement when latched closed. The pivot screw also has a taped head that corresponds to the taper of the hole in the left side of the fork so it will only tighten so far before the pivot screws taper and fork hole taper create a friction fit preventing it from loosening during use.

The key to getting the fitment correct between the barrel block and fork is to measure the width of the barrel block with bushing and shims in place and then measure the fork width with the screw installed and tightened securely. Then when you have those two measurements you need to either add or subtract shims so that when it is assembled there should be approx. .003" to .005" preload on the bushing/shims with the pivot screw tightened securely. As an example if the receiver fork width with the pivot screw tight measured .750" than you want the barrel block with bushing/shims to be at .753 to .755" in width so when assembled You have the .003 to .005" preload to keep the barrel from moving in a sideways direction during a shot in order to have any chance of repeatable accuracy from a crosman break barrel.

That's why all my crosman break barrels have bronze bushing sized to each gun individually for the correct barrel to fork clearance fitment.

Definitely to different animals as far as quality and assembly procedures are concerned.

Just my .2 cents and opinion from what I have found works for my cheap B18/19 platform guns. 

BD

WOW....no wonder my Crosman Quest 100 (a Chinese Gamo220) and the Gamo440 I owned had such mediocre accuracy, even after tuning since there was no attention put into the barrel pivot tension! Funny thing is that if only accuracy was the criteria the $19.00 Chinese B3 bought from a Cummins truckload sale decades ago shot more accurately than either the Crosman Quest or Gamo440.
25 yards using factory sights.......

At 25 yards using a 6x Buris Compact scope that cost 4x more than the B3..........

To get that velocity I kept the factory spring but fitted it with a Delrin spring guide and oring sealed piston cap to replace the factory leather seal.........


Anywhoo......thanks for the "heads up" concerning Crosman break barrels and the Chinese clones!

[Buldawg76]

Ed
There is a huge difference between the tolerances of an HW and a NP crosman gun in terms of design and execution of the fitment between the barrel block and the receiver forks. For a crosman break barrel to have any chance at repeatable accuracy it is a must that all play be removed between the barrel and the fork. Crosman  B18/19 platform guns use cheap plastic pivot bushing with a steel shim or two between the barrel block and the plastic shim to make up for poor tolerance stack ups.

If the barrel on a crosman is adjusted the same as an HW it will never be capable of hitting the same POI repeatedly with any consistency. The barrel is not adjusted so its over tight in the fork but just enough to prevent any side to side movement when latched closed. The pivot screw also has a taped head that corresponds to the taper of the hole in the left side of the fork so it will only tighten so far before the pivot screws taper and fork hole taper create a friction fit preventing it from loosening during use.

The key to getting the fitment correct between the barrel block and fork is to measure the width of the barrel block with bushing and shims in place and then measure the fork width with the screw installed and tightened securely. Then when you have those two measurements you need to either add or subtract shims so that when it is assembled there should be approx. .003" to .005" preload on the bushing/shims with the pivot screw tightened securely. As an example if the receiver fork width with the pivot screw tight measured .750" than you want the barrel block with bushing/shims to be at .753 to .755" in width so when assembled You have the .003 to .005" preload to keep the barrel from moving in a sideways direction during a shot in order to have any chance of repeatable accuracy from a crosman break barrel.

That's why all my crosman break barrels have bronze bushing sized to each gun individually for the correct barrel to fork clearance fitment.

Definitely to different animals as far as quality and assembly procedures are concerned.

Just my .2 cents and opinion from what I have found works for my cheap B18/19 platform guns. 

BD

WOW....no wonder my Crosman Quest 100 (a Chinese Gamo220) and the Gamo440 I owned had such mediocre accuracy, even after tuning since there was no attention put into the barrel pivot tension! Funny thing is that if only accuracy was the criteria the $19.00 Chinese B3 bought from a Cummins truckload sale decades ago shot more accurately than either the Crosman Quest or Gamo440.
25 yards using factory sights.......

At 25 yards using a 6x Buris Compact scope that cost 4x more than the B3..........

To get that velocity I kept the factory spring but fitted it with a Delrin spring guide and oring sealed piston cap to replace the factory leather seal.........


Anywhoo......thanks for the "heads up" concerning Crosman break barrels and the Chinese clones!

Believe me it took me a lot of patience/frustration before I figured out the key to getting decent accuracy from the Crosman/Chinese B18/19 platform guns and that's not even taking in to account if the barrel is even capable of decent accuracy as well. I have 4 of them in both .177 and .22 caliber with coil springs and gas rams and finally can get sub inch groups at 30 yards with them. They will never be a match for my TX, FWBs or even the B40 but can be minute of squirrel head accurate with some TLC.

Yea my B3-2 is quite accurate after a cleaning of the old Chinese lubes and a spring upgrade as well and for 20 bucks I cannot complain at all about it.

D

[jus Tom]

I just found this thread while jumping through the headers, and I found myself saying "hey, I had a very similar experience"  back when I was becoming frustrated with my NP Nitro Venom.
Wayne, as you likely have realized by now, this site has an exceptional following of contributors that are VERY willing to help out new airgunners when questions are asked.
I was a bit surprised though that it took 26 posts before buldawg76 mentioned the pivot bolt tightness and side to side barrel wobble due to the plastic pivot washers. As miniscule as the wobble was on my gun, once I found out about those plastic washers and how to make my own from brass as replacement and installed....my gun became a whole different "chipmunk killer" of a rifle, my "go to" break barrel rifle.

I also found the H&N FTT pellets to shoot most consistent from my NP though I use 5.54 headsize getting 725fps.

[Buldawg76]

There are so many new threads started every day it came takes some time to read thru them to be able to contribute info we have learned or gained from others on this forum. All good thing take time to come to fruition and be disseminated to the masses.

BD

[tektrixter]

Ed
There is a huge difference between the tolerances of an HW and a NP crosman gun in terms of design and execution of the fitment between the barrel block and the receiver forks. For a crosman break barrel to have any chance at repeatable accuracy it is a must that all play be removed between the barrel and the fork. Crosman  B18/19 platform guns use cheap plastic pivot bushing with a steel shim or two between the barrel block and the plastic shim to make up for poor tolerance stack ups.

If the barrel on a crosman is adjusted the same as an HW it will never be capable of hitting the same POI repeatedly with any consistency. The barrel is not adjusted so its over tight in the fork but just enough to prevent any side to side movement when latched closed. The pivot screw also has a taped head that corresponds to the taper of the hole in the left side of the fork so it will only tighten so far before the pivot screws taper and fork hole taper create a friction fit preventing it from loosening during use.

The key to getting the fitment correct between the barrel block and fork is to measure the width of the barrel block with bushing and shims in place and then measure the fork width with the screw installed and tightened securely. Then when you have those two measurements you need to either add or subtract shims so that when it is assembled there should be approx. .003" to .005" preload on the bushing/shims with the pivot screw tightened securely. As an example if the receiver fork width with the pivot screw tight measured .750" than you want the barrel block with bushing/shims to be at .753 to .755" in width so when assembled You have the .003 to .005" preload to keep the barrel from moving in a sideways direction during a shot in order to have any chance of repeatable accuracy from a crosman break barrel.

That's why all my crosman break barrels have bronze bushing sized to each gun individually for the correct barrel to fork clearance fitment.

Definitely to different animals as far as quality and assembly procedures are concerned.

Just my .2 cents and opinion from what I have found works for my cheap B18/19 platform guns. 

BD

I found a metal bushing in the pivot on mine. It was not in place correctly. At first I couldn't get the barrel block out of the forks as the bushing was not squarely in the hole. A little careful tapping to push the high side by a millimeter or so and I was able to get it flush and the two pieces separated. I then noticed that the bushing is not centered between the forks, its still to one side. I was unable to move it enough with the tools on hand to center it, I'll give that a try when I get a chance. When I find my calipers I'll take the measurements you suggested and find shims to ensure a good fit.



Thank you again to everyone giving recommendations, tips, and advice!

[tektrixter]

I just found this thread while jumping through the headers, and I found myself saying "hey, I had a very similar experience"  back when I was becoming frustrated with my NP Nitro Venom.
Wayne, as you likely have realized by now, this site has an exceptional following of contributors that are VERY willing to help out new airgunners when questions are asked.
I was a bit surprised though that it took 26 posts before buldawg76 mentioned the pivot bolt tightness and side to side barrel wobble due to the plastic pivot washers. As miniscule as the wobble was on my gun, once I found out about those plastic washers and how to make my own from brass as replacement and installed....my gun became a whole different "chipmunk killer" of a rifle, my "go to" break barrel rifle.

I also found the H&N FTT pellets to shoot most consistent from my NP though I use 5.54 headsize getting 725fps.

Do you have a link to how to make the brass washers? I'd be interested in how to get the thickness just right when dealing with small tolerances.

[tektrixter]

All those pellets you have listed havent ever done well in anything I have owned,  by no means saying others havent had good results.  I would bet if you step up to some better pellets HN or JSBS you will see a great difference, and I sure wouldnt  rest the barrel on anything. David

I'm not resting the barrel itself on anything. I rest the front of the stock (near the balance point) on a rolled up sock to give a soft point of contact. When I get some money available I'll be investing in some shooting sticks and/or the Vanguard Porta Aim (I plan on both bench shooting and pest control).

[Buldawg76]

Yes the B18/19 platform guns all have a metal bushing that goes in the hole the pivot screw passes thru and the reason you had trouble getting it to move is it also holds the detent chisel in place in the breech block. You need to depress the chisel partially to remove the load on the bushing to center it in the breech block. It needs to be centered with an equal amount protruding from each side of the breech block in order to hold the pivot washers in place in the machined recess in the sides of the breech block.

Sorry no pics but here is a thread on how to make them and see the attached PDF from Roadworthy in reply #1 to written instruction on making the brass washers. Its where I got my info from.

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=165818.msg155853178#msg155853178

Also another good thread on the pivot washers. Sadly the ones from Gene SC are no longer available.

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=31087.0

If I had one of my guns apart I would include pics but right now they are all assembled.

BD