Author Topic: .38 bullets in the Bulldog .357 experiment (Read 7745 times - 3 votes)
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Kinetic45^ · « **Reply #20 on:** January 03, 2020, 03:00:38 AM »

If it didn't expand in dirt which is dense compaired to mostly water, it's not going to expand in flesh either and will simply punch through. There will be a hydraulic cavity form and cause damage (not hydrostatic shock) but only excellent bullet placement can still ensure a humane kill. A barely adequate situation though.

This is why I keep harping on having a BIG HP for Airguns that will expand at lower velocities and dump it's kinetic energy in the target and increase lethality.
Something like this 130gr .357 HP which WILL expand when fired at 850 FPS muzzle then having slowed downrange.
[These are cast in 2% tin and then coated with FinishLine 'Dry" chain wax then dusted with HBN (Hexagonal Boron Nitride "White Graphite" anti-friction powder for lubrication and no fouling]

Or you can use something like the NOE sketch shows which casts around 152gr in 2% but it may be slow in a stock gun... really needs a Pitbull, Texan or Slayer to drive it to 900+ and then it is AMAZING with its 'smack'. Good accuracy in all my .357 rifles

redlined_b16a · « **Reply #21 on:** January 03, 2020, 09:02:10 AM »

It was soft clay mud when I fired them.
Still no expansion.Id guess I'm in the 720ish fps range at best which is not fast enough for expansion.

Knothead · « **Reply #22 on:** January 03, 2020, 11:59:29 AM »

Quote from: rsterne on January 02, 2020, 10:46:42 PM

My fingernails are BHN 10-11 or so.... If I can't scratch a bullet with them, it is 12 or harder.... and IMO too hard for airgun use.... YFMV (your fingernails may vary)….

Bob

I kept breaking my nails as I got older so i finally broke down and bought a Lee hardness test kit. That and I was trying to out shoot my kid on the gong at 800 yards with BPCR, and that's pretty tough. Back then he seemed to have no freekin pulse when he laid behind a rifle.

https://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/lead-hardness-tester/

redlined_b16a · « **Reply #23 on:** January 04, 2020, 01:43:41 PM »

Ran some chrono test today.
My main test was 5 shot groups of JSB and Hornady
JSB 3000 PSI-2200Psi
935
928
917
903
885
50yards in teathered 1" FTC

Hornady 148 grains
2900 psi -2200 psi
780
774
731
720
703
50 yards 1 1/4" ctc
Un teathered
My Buddy just dropped off his press and die so I'll try some of the sized .357 ones.
Pushed a few slugs thru and the all measured .357 on a digital and manual caliper.

Mail man just delivered some grizzly slugs and Vortex pellets(identical to JSB)

redlined_b16a · « **Reply #24 on:** January 04, 2020, 03:00:46 PM »

Tried sized and upsized Hornady 148 grains.
50 yards.
They look a little over 1"
Edited I went measure.
Un sized under 1"
Sized just over 1"

redlined_b16a · « **Reply #25 on:** January 04, 2020, 04:33:07 PM »

So far it seems to perfer the un sorted and un sized .358 loads.
The NSA for some reason shoots horrible now.

redlined_b16a · « **Reply #26 on:** January 04, 2020, 07:59:30 PM »

What's your thoughts on these
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/federal-syntech-handgun-bullets-9mm-caliber-.355-diameter-115-grain-syntech-jacket-flat-nose-projectile-100-count-per-box/FC-604544626315.html

Kinetic45^ · « **Reply #27 on:** January 04, 2020, 10:08:19 PM »

Quote from: redlined_b16a on January 04, 2020, 07:59:30 PM

What's your thoughts on these
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/federal-syntech-handgun-bullets-9mm-caliber-.355-diameter-115-grain-syntech-jacket-flat-nose-projectile-100-count-per-box/FC-604544626315.html

A round nose, non-expanding AND it's .355?
Well it might be .356 so you are going to get some blow-by maybe which will reduce velocities.
I think you should buy a box and test them and report back.
I would note that I don't target shoot just to plink... I target shoot to HUNT accurately so don't bother with bullets that can not be used for that purpose. This bullet would be OK on small targets (like rabbits or similar sized game) but I would not use one on small to medium small game for any body shots, only head/brain shots.

redlined_b16a · « **Reply #28 on:** January 04, 2020, 10:17:46 PM »

Quote from: Kinetic45^ on January 04, 2020, 10:08:19 PM

Quote from: redlined_b16a on January 04, 2020, 07:59:30 PM
What's your thoughts on these
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/federal-syntech-handgun-bullets-9mm-caliber-.355-diameter-115-grain-syntech-jacket-flat-nose-projectile-100-count-per-box/FC-604544626315.html
A round nose, non-expanding AND it's .355?
Well it might be .356 so you are going to get some blow-by maybe which will reduce velocities.
I think you should buy a box and test them and report back.
I would note that I don't target shoot just to plink... I target shoot to HUNT accurately so don't bother with bullets that can not be used for that purpose. This bullet would be OK on small targets (like rabbits or similar sized game) but I would not use one on small to medium small game for any body shots, only head/brain shots.

Agreed.
I'm searching for a cheaper plinking round.
I just never heard of a lead round jacketed in synthetic before.
My issue is I love to plink.
.357 is expensive to plink.

Kinetic45^ · « **Reply #29 on:** January 04, 2020, 10:28:48 PM »

Coated bullets have been around for a long time but just never caught on.
Do a search for Nyclad which was origionally a Smith and Wesson development but later was produced by Federal.
Liberals were trying to shut down Indoor shooting ranges because of 'lead dust in the air' and federal EPA laws were passed and it made it look like that was all that could be shot. But instead ranges just put in better ventilation and filtering systems, haha.
Low sales killed the coated bullets. The FBI was on board for a while as a PC thing issuing it but quickly changed back to conventional ammo.
Cheap shooting is why do many people get into casting.

I've got a crapton of both weights of the Inceptor bullets which are copper dust and nylon polymer and their design does work to generate a big temporary wound cavity. they were $24 a box and when I heard they were being discontinued I bough 21 boxes (all they stocked) and no, I'm not selling any of them! I get 1 MOA at 100 yards and 1050 FPS (3400 fill) out of my Slayer although they do lose velocity fast. But inside 50 yards they make DRT hog kills. [No way to tell but I wonder if they actually achieve some hydrostatic shock which is usually impossible at subsonic velocities where we would expect to only get hydraulic shock in the temporary wound cavity]

rsterne · « **Reply #30 on:** January 04, 2020, 11:11:21 PM »

Don't just assume because a slug is 0.001" or even 0.002" smaller than the groove diameter that you will get enough blow-by to lose velocity.... I often find that velocity peaks when the slug is 0.002" under bore size, because the reduction in friction is more important than any possible blow-by.... Only by checking the velocity with a Chrony will you be SURE at what point blow-by is costing you velocity.... Even if you are 0.001" smaller than where you get the maximum velocity, accuracy is more important than a few fps.... Select the most accurate size for YOUR barrel....

Bob

KarlH · « **Reply #31 on:** January 05, 2020, 06:43:02 PM »

Mr Rsterne, in my Texan 357 anything not significantly over bore diamater goes slow, I don't use pure lead. Lots of blow by. My barrel is fire lapped if that makes a difference. The difference between a 148gr hollow base wadcutter I've played with a lot in sizing is around 730 fps sized at .3568, 870 fps sized at .3571 and 904 fps sized at .3575. Every slug I have tried does the same to one degree or another. The harder the lead, the greater the difference. For target shooting I use that 148gr hollow base wadcutter made by Zero. It is the hardest lead of anything I have shot. They come sized near .358, and did not shoot all that well in my texan at around 870fps. I resized them to .3568 and they slowed down, a lot and still did not shoot that well. Started working up and at .3575 they run right around 905 fps and are the most accurate slug I've used yet in my texan. Even so I don't use them much, seems the hard lead actually leads the bore a little more. A couple hundred rounds and I have to clean, accuracy actually starts falling off with them around 160 or so rounds.

I have mostly been using the swaged hornady cowboy lead the original poster is trying, being swaged they are a fairly soft lead and will deform some if a rib is hit going in. You can tell it deformed since the exit is not a clean punch out the swc delivers. Not as accurate as the Zero bullets but not bad and much cleaner. Out of all the Hornady cowboy 158 gr rounds, the round nose shoots best in my Texan, the SWCHP the worst, and the SWC is almost as good as the round nose. I wish they were sized bigger. The OP is showing .358 in his pictures, but I have gone through 6 different boxes purchased at 3 different retailers and they are all sized .357 if you take the hard waxy lube off them. I tried cleaning the lube off some of them, and they slowed down significantly, blow by. The lube keeps them sealed in my texan and they run about 905 fps, without the lube and running at the .357 they are actually sized to that drops to 880 ish fps and horrible accuracy in my texan. The 158 gr hornady cowboy SWC is what I use deer hunting when I'm not using a powder burner. Don't need any expansion, punch the swc through both lungs and one dead deer with a good blood trail. I've now shot 4 deer with that slug, the largest was just over 140lbs field dressed. Clean pass throughs on all, good blood trail on all, and so far longest recovery was on one that was nervous and saw me, she made the mistake of taking the time to blow at me instead of instantly running. She made it about 80 yards on a dead run before piling up. I started deer hunting around 1980 and for the first few years I only used my S&W 38 special 6 inch target. Loaded of course with 158 gr semi wadcutters, never lost a deer with it, always had pass throughs and good blood trails. My Texan actually shoots faster than my S&W 38.

rsterne · « **Reply #32 on:** January 05, 2020, 06:58:21 PM »

Whatever works for you, Karl, is great!!!

All I can say is that my experience in several PCPs is different.... For example, in a .22 cal PCP, where the groove diameter is 0.217" and the chamber measures 0.218", with 29.6 gr. BBTs at 2000 psi in a 28" barrel I got the following velocities....

0.219".... 956 fps
0.218".... 956 fps
0.217".... 963 fps
0.216".... 972 fps

I didn't have a 0.215" sizing bushing to try, unfortunately.... The largest size slug, at 0.219", was being sized by the chamber to 0.218", so it makes perfect sense the velocity would be the same as the 0.218" slug.... YMMV....

Bob

redlined_b16a · « **Reply #33 on:** January 05, 2020, 10:35:40 PM »

I'll give these a try.
At $11 for 100 they are worth a look
I like the large hollow point hole.
The NSA 110 frains do not expand well for me since the hollow point wall is so thin.
Expansion isn't really a big deal to me at this time.
Just on a quest to find what(if)cheap ammo I can shoot sub 1" groups consistantly with.
Also learning alot and I appreciate the help.

I did try cranking in the hammer spring.Did not gain much.I assume it's because I'm limited by the transfer port size.

redlined_b16a · « **Reply #34 on:** January 15, 2020, 01:39:37 PM »

The 9mm 130 hp came in but I have no time to test them.
Ordered them in .357 size the just squeeze through die.
Lead feels hard.Hopefully the group atleast 1" at 50 yards.

rintafile · « **Reply #35 on:** January 16, 2020, 12:35:06 AM »

In the middle on picture looks like machine casting pistol bullet. It is probably at least 12-14 BHN.... Did you try do dent on it with nail?

redlined_b16a · « **Reply #36 on:** January 16, 2020, 09:05:07 AM »

Quote from: rintafile on January 16, 2020, 12:35:06 AM

In the middle on picture looks like machine casting pistol bullet. It is probably at least 12-14 BHN.... Did you try do dent on it with nail?

I can scratch and dent it.
It is as hard as the Air Venturi bullets.
I'm going to experiment with my lathe and try to machine another grove in them.
See if that helps.
Once I get home from work for testing.

PakProtector · « **Reply #37 on:** January 17, 2020, 09:24:17 PM »

I think y'all might get some good results with boolits from a Lyman 356158. This is going to be a bit heavier with softer alloy( mostly lead, 2% tin ). It can be lightened with a big HP, and some more by milling off some of the gas check stub. Part of its likelihood for good shooting comes from even having a gas check stub in the first place. The last band will get fully, and consistently formed. it is the last thing to leave the barrel, and its consistency is important.
cheers,
Douglas

redlined_b16a · « **Reply #38 on:** January 18, 2020, 11:56:30 AM »

I work offshore and met a guy that cast all his own ammo as a hobby.
Says he has several .38 and .357 molds and hes happy to cast me some samples.

Great Luck.

Kinetic45^ · « **Reply #39 on:** January 18, 2020, 10:34:02 PM »

In my earlier post I showed a picture of some 130gr HP but didn't say what mold they were from.
These are actually a .355 mold but the bullets throw at .357 unsized and I can shoot them 'as cast'.but usually run them quickly through a 357 die just to true them a bit (they almost fall through but take a tiny bit of sizing to 'circularize' them)
If you are going to have someone cast for you (you could buy the mold and have them use it) this bullet fills out well and casts easily, dropping off the pins with just a shake.
Here's the link:
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/355-9mm/tl357-135-rf-au5
Here's another bullet I use in lower power rifles and as a plinker that in the HP has done a serviceable job
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/355-9mm/359-115-rf-r2

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.38 bullets in the Bulldog .357 experiment

Author Topic: .38 bullets in the Bulldog .357 experiment (Read 7745 times - 3 votes) )

Author Topic: .38 bullets in the Bulldog .357 experiment (Read 7745 times - 3 votes)
)