We need a tapered pellet sizing die from NOE

[Nvreloader]

Thanks Guys

I'll have to do more studying on this, so back to my corner...........    

Tia,
Don

[subscriber]

I can see that the shallowness of the die taper would be related to caliber, because larger calibers generally have longer pellets. 

I can see that pellets sized for PCP applications might prefer or could use head and skirt diameters that are closer together.  Whereas, pellets sized for springers should maintain a "wide skirt".   This is because the force required to size down the skirt in the breech on firing is part of what determines the operating pressure of the airgun; and thus its performance.  Thus the die taper for springer applications should be steeper than for PCP applications.

[Insanity]

I dont think the skirt diameter matters near as much as the head diameter. Why? As mentioned already the blast of air should deform the skirt to fill the lands. Also as stated with the the skirt being higher up it will always be larger than the head. If I were at NOE it would be a fixed taper to fit my blocks and that is what it is.

[rsterne]

I can see that the shallowness of the die taper would be related to caliber, because larger calibers generally have longer pellets.

Absolutely correct.... However, they also tend to have a greater difference between the head and skirt diameters for high quality swaged pellets like JSBs.... We may perhaps need a slightly shallower taper for the larger calibers.... or maybe not?.... They also have a greatly increased base area, and a lot more force available to make the skirt comply to the groove diameter....

I agree that the primary advantage to sizing pellets at all, is to get the head diameter that shoots best in YOUR barrel.... and consistent from pellet to pellet.... The skirt will always end up blown out to the groove diameter....



Fired pellets on the left, pushed through the same barrel on the right.... Note the significant obturation of the skirt when expanded by the air pressure behind it....

Bob

[subscriber]

The skirt will always end up blown out to the groove diameter....

...when you shoot them at 3000 PSI.  What about shooting them from a SSP or CO2 gun at less than 1000 PSI?

That said, I think it would be easy to derive land and groove, plus desired starting skirt interference values for a given caliber and typical pellet length.  These would point at the desired die angle. 

I suspect that one degree per side is already pretty close for such a sizing die.  If it turns out to be two degrees, the optimist would say, that was only one degree off.  The pessimists would argue a 100% error

[rsterne]

I believe that photo, taken by Lloyd Sikes, was using a Disco at between 1200-2000 psi.... How much length of the skirt obturates will depend on the air pressure, the skirt thickness (and length) and pellet hardness.... Certainly, photos I have seen of pellets from springers obturate in a similar fashion to the ones in that photo.... CO2, I don't know, I've never seen any photos of pellet shot from them.... MSPs generally have higher pressures than CO2, and SSPs even higher (at least initially)…. IMO, the skirt OD on firing will always at least match the groove diameter.... the difference will be how long is the area pressed out to match the groove....

The head is a different story.... Pellet manufacturers market several different head ODs, because that is supposed to make a difference in accuracy.... Of course it is not uncommon for the actual head OD to be wildly different than that marked on the tin,  and also from pellet to pellet.... yet shooters still claim that 0.01mm makes all the difference in the way their gun shoots.... If we have a tapered pellet sizing die, those so inclined can experiment to their heart's content until they find that PERFECT size....

I think that 1 deg. per side may be a bit steep, but the advantage is that a shorter bushing is required.... On the other hand, I think that the 1:48 taper of a pin reamer (~0.6 degree per side) may be a bit on the shallow side.... and require 67% longer sizing bushings.... I'll see what Al says when I talk to him....

Bob

[Nvreloader]

Bob

Question
On your diagram, is the length figured on the length of NOE's sizing buttons, that are about .625" long?

Tia,
Don

[rsterne]

The length on my drawing is 0.60".... and yes the NOE bushings are 5/8" deep.... To get the same minor and major diameters with a pin reamer would require a 1" long bushing....

Bob

[subscriber]

Gents,

The image below is a scale analysis to see what taper angle might be appropriate for a .22 caliber sizing die.

The top drawing represents an unfired JSB 15.9 grain pellet.  The effective taper between a head diameter of .216 and a skirt diameter of .226 across a bearing length of .226" is 1.267 degrees per side.

The middle drawing uses the .215 land and .221 groove diameters of a LW barrel, to calculate the effective taper across the same JSB pellet's bearing length.  That calculates to 0.761 degrees per side.

The lower drawing provides the answer to; what would the skirt diameter of a 15.9 grain JSB length pellet be for a .216" diameter pellet head, if sized in a 1 degree per side taper die?  The answer is .224"

This simple analysis suggests that a taper die angle of 1 to 1.25 degrees per side should work for a .22 caliber taper sizing die.  If I had a choice, it would be for 1.25 degrees, so I can shoot the pellets from a springer too...

Of course, if you want to size JSB 25 grain Monster pellets, then a 1 degree taper per side may be better for you.  Certainly, shallower than 1 degree will probably be less than ideal for springers, while maybe still being OK for PCPs.

[nced]

I've been shooting airguns for a lot of years and the fit of the pellet to the barrel is one of the most important keys to accuracy.

I've bought every brand and weight of pellet to try in a rifle to find the 'perfect' one that it likes so many times.

A couple of years ago a friend aquired a tapered sizer from overseas, British I believe, and we found that we could take some fairly poor shooting pellets and get a lot better accuracy after the sizer trued up the skirt and sized the head and skirt to their best diameters. That made me think for years that there was a need of available pellet sizing dies for the American shooter and I've decided that the time has come to push for it.

Then I have been buying a lot of molds from Al at NOE and since he sells such good pellet molds and regular sizing dies I wondered if we could get him or some other manufacturer to make a tapered pellet sizer for this side of the pond.

How many of you would get one if they were truly available at a reasonable cost?  And not having to wait 6 months after ordering for delivery either?

I think we need a three different sizes, a.177, .22 and .25. I am sure there are experts here who could determine the angle of taper so the heads were the proper size and the skirts were just right larger.  I think this ratio is consistent so a tapered hole that you set the depth the pellet was pushed into then after the ram was retracted a tap on a rod would push the pellet down on the top of the nose and let it drop free.  If you set it deeper into the die the head of the pellet would be smaller but the skirt, sized down too would be just enough larger.  Want a larger head and skirt? Just set the depth a little shallower.

Maybe we could get a group buy or maybe we could have Al add it to his catalogue so it would be available as new people join our community and need the gear to increase performance.

Some pretty smart people here, how would YOU design a tapered pellet sizing die that would fit in a sizing press (a reloading press that a lot of us already have) like slug sizing dies do? Or a handheld one like the foreign one?

This is the pellet sizer I made for my .177 HW springers.........
The sizer "flares/rounds" the pellet skirt plus sizes the pellet rifling surface with one push of the ram, then the sized pellet is pushed back out of the sizer with the finger (or pencil eraser). It takes about 5 seconds to size a pellet which comes to 12 pellets per minute (720 pellets per hour). I had initially made two sizers, one with a 4.48mm sizing ring for my tight leade .177 HW95 and another with a 4.52mm sizing ring for my looser leade .177 Beeman R9...........

Later I lapped the 4.48mm sizer ring opening it up to 4.50mm and found that a CPL with a 4.50mm head is accurate from both my looser leade Beeman R9 and tighter leade HW95. Also, even for the tighter leade HW95 a CPL with pellet head sized to 4.50mm can be loaded without the "sore finger syndrome" I got trying to shove an unsized CPL with 4.55ish mm heads into the tighter leade. Here are some measured unsized CPLs........

This pic shows the "rifling surface" of a 4.55ish mm CPL head after passing through the 4.52mm sizing ring in the die.......


I found that my home made sizers are also handy for sorting out pellet "deformed" skirts as well as making oval pellet heads round. CPLs with "normal skirts" drop to the sizing ring when inserted into the die, however the pellets with damaged skirts "hang up" at the entrance.
Normal CPL previous to sizing.......

CPLs with deformed skirts are rounded with sizing, even those with "too much squishing". The pellets with minimal deformation are saved after sizing, however the pellet skirts with kinks are tossed even though they are round after sizing........




LOL.......I didn't appreciate how small a 1/100th of a mm measurement was till I started making pellet sizers for myself (.01mm= 0.0003937008in). Initially I tried simply making a "D" reamer in the appropriate size but that was a failure with my tools. The next attempt was to make piloted and unpiloted "D" reamer that reamed the tool steel "die insert" before hardening and however the "sizing ring" was left undersized at 4mm. Then after hardening the insert the sizing ring was lapped till a pushed pellet head was the correct size...........


Anywhoo.......while my "4.50mm pellet heads" probably aren't exactly 4.50mm as measured with my digital digital calipers, I do know that every sized pellet is "round, not oval" and exactly the same diameter. Over the years I've sized thousands of pellets while simply watching YouTube videos of reading web sites since the sizing of a pellet with the sizer is a rather mindless process of dropping a pellet into the die, pushing it through the sizing ring with the ram, pushing the pellet back out of the die, then putting it into the pellet pouch, or back into an empty the pellet box/tin for later use. As mentioned, I did time the sizing process and about 750 pellets per hour are casually sized. 

[subscriber]

Valuable info, Ed.  What skirt diameter did pellets have after sizing in your dies?  How did this compare to unsized pellets?

Thanks

[nced]

Valuable info, Ed.  What skirt diameter did pellets have after sizing in your dies?  How did this compare to unsized pellets?

Thanks

Humm, I never consider skirt size since it gets "sized" simply when pressed into the leade. I don't have any unsized CPLs to measure but I just measured three sized CPL skirts as best as I can and found that they were 4.65mm,4.64mm,4.65mm with heads of 4.50mm (readout from my caliper). This is kinda interesting because the ream of the hardened insert measures 4.56mm (just measured with my caliper) so the measurement was about .001mm less shown in this sketch. LOL...........that small variation could simply be the digital caliper rounding off the third decimal, of perhaps just my measuring this time...........


Actually, I never had accuracy issues with shooting CPLs "straight from the box" by simply weeding out the half dozen or so pellets (per 1250 count box) while shooting if they "fit looser than normal" because normal CPL head sizes do run large and they get "sized" simply when pushed into the leade of my .177 HW springers. I made the pellet sizer simply because loading an unsized CPL into the tight leade HW95 would give me a sore loading finger after shooting a hundred pellets or so at one sitting. Reducing the CPL head diameter did ease the "sore finger syndrome" with the HW95 and much to my surprise a CPL sized to 4.50mm still fits the R9 snugly and is still accurate.

[subscriber]

Thanks Ed

[Nvreloader]

This is the preliminary sketch I sent to Al....


The exact sizes are not yet determined.... but that drawing would be 0.60" long to produce the minimum and maximum diameters shown using a 1 degree taper.... The smallest .22 cal barrel I am aware of is the MMHF, which is 0.213" groove and likely about 0.209-0.210" land.... and the largest is the LW, which is 0.215" land and 0.221" groove.... although there may be something larger....

The NOE pellets are designed at 0.217" nose and 0.224" skirt, so this die should enable them to be customized for anything I am aware of.... The "Hunter" pellets are 0.200" long from the back of the nose to the back of the skirt (so would end up with a 0.007" difference between them)…. and the "Magnum Hunter" pellets are 0.260" from head to skirt (so would end up with a 0.009" difference).... That would mean that if I stay with the 1 degree per side taper, the head would get sized slightly before the skirt touched the die....

This is what happens using a taper, longer pellets end up with a greater difference between the head and skirt diameters.... so we may have to play with the taper angle to try and accommodate different pellet lengths....

It would of course be necessary to come up with a compromise, as it would only be practical to have one die per caliber....Bob

Hi Bob
Do you have any more information the taper needed per pellet size?

I have added some information from my pellet data base,
I am working on the taper for each pellet using Bearing length and head/skirt diameters
and will up date when finished.
(NOTE: The inside waist diameters for each caliber did not post,
attempting to figure out why.)

Skirt Depth = Is from the bottom of the skirt to the top of the inside waist, that the bolt probe pushes against.
Bearing Length = Is from the center of the head diameter band to end of skirt length.                           
Skirt angle = the degree of the inside and or outside skirt cone dimensions.                           
                           
177 Caliber                           
Lightest Weight         4.3                        
Heaviest Weight        16.36                        
Smallest Head size      .169"                     
Largest Head size      .183"                     
Smallest Skirt Dia      .173"                  
Largest Skirt Dia      .189"
Smallest Inside Skirt Waist Diameter
Largest Inside Skirt Waist Diameter                  
Shortest Skirt Depth      .040"               
Longest Skirt Depth       .179"               
Shortest Bearing Length   .130"            
Longest Bearing Length   .240"            
Shortest Over All Length   .178"         
Longest Over All Length   .350"         
Shallowest inside skirt angle in degrees   04.54*      
Steepest inside skirt angle in degrees      22.61*      
Shallowest outside skirt angle in degrees                           
Steepest outside skirt angle in degrees

https://calculator.academy/taper-calculator/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                           
20 Caliber                           
Lightest Weight      09.2                        
Heaviest Weight       23.7                        
Smallest Head size      .194"                     
Largest Head size      .211"                     
Smallest Skirt Diameter   .199"                  
Largest Skirt Diameter   .301"
Smallest Inside Skirt Waist Diameter
Largest Inside Skirt Waist Diameter                  
Shortest Skirt Depth      .047"               
Longest Skirt Depth       .235"               
Shortest Bearing Length   .160"            
Longest Bearing Length   .310"            
Shortest Over All Length   .220"         
Longest Over All Length   .409"         
Shallowest inside skirt angle in degrees   05.39*      
Steepest inside skirt angle in degrees      13.93*      
Shallowest outside skirt angle in degrees                           
Steepest outside skirt angle in degrees
                           
https://calculator.academy/taper-calculator/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        
22 Caliber                           
Lightest Weight      9.0                        
Heaviest Weight     34.5                        
Smallest Head size      .209"                     
Largest Head size      .220"                     
Smallest Skirt Dia      .209"                  
Largest Skirt Dia      .228"
Smallest Inside Skirt Waist Diameter
Largest Inside Skirt Waist Diameter                  
Shortest Skirt Depth      .052"               
Longest Skirt Depth       .204"               
Shortest Bearing Length   .148"            
Longest Bearing Length   .280"            
Shortest Over All Length   .228"         
Longest Over All Length   .382"         
Shallowest inside skirt angle in degrees   07.40*      
Steepest inside skirt angle in degrees      28.69*      
Shallowest outside skirt angle in degrees                  
Steepest outside skirt angle in degrees   15.97*   
                           
https://calculator.academy/taper-calculator/                           
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------                           
25 Caliber                           
Lightest Weight      15.0                        
Heaviest Weight      37.0                        
Smallest Head size      .240"                     
Largest Head size      .255"                     
Smallest Skirt Dia      .247"                  
Largest Skirt Dia      .262"
Smallest Inside Skirt Waist Diameter
Largest Inside Skirt Waist Diameter                  
Shortest Skirt Depth      .158"               
Longest Skirt Depth       .220"               
Shortest Bearing Length   .202"            
Longest Bearing Length   .280"            
Shortest Over All Length   .285"         
Longest Over All Length   .428"         
Shallowest inside skirt angle in degrees   11.33*      
Steepest inside skirt angle in degrees      17.94*      
Shallowest outside skirt angle in degrees                           
Steepest outside skirt angle in degrees                           

https://calculator.academy/taper-calculator/

   
Your thoughts and suggestions....
Tia,
Don   

[OTmachine]

Don, thanks for digging this up.  I bored my pellet sizer at .6 degree per side which gives .002 included taper per .100” length for a total length of 1 inch ending at .216 diameter which is a 1/4” straight bore to align the pusher / shaper pin.  Made an inner skirt pedestal with the same dimensions + as the chosen pellet.  Made the head pusher with a 1/8 concave radius to match the H & N Baracuda 18 gr pellets. Need to fit up the barrel to the Xisico yet to test it out.  Will possibly need to make different shape pedestals for different pellets.  If I have good results, I will post some sketches.  Keith

[Nvreloader]

Thanks Keith
I have done just about the same stuff for my sizing press,
but have changed a couple of items, seems  to work better, for me.

On the bushing holder,
I have the 2 types, one to fit NOE sizing bushings,
and another bushing holder to fit other diameter's for other size bushing's like,
Drill bushings, PB neck sizing die bushing's and other custom made bushing's,
for special operations.

On the skirt pin,
I have threaded this pin, to fit it's base holder,
I now have an adjustable length for almost 1", if needed.
I make pins to fit all the different pellet skirt diameters/shapes/brand names. 

On the head pin,
I use Ball end, center cutting end mills of various diameters, (Metric/ASE),
and can make several different radius Dome/Round head types,
depending on the diameter used.
Also have several different type of HP pins also.

I have a very sharp/smart member here,
that has helped with the tapers needed, for all the calibers,
he went so far as diagraming a 22 cal pellet size down to 20 cal sizing bushing.

That was the reason for all the entries in the above XL program on the data base etc.
I hope he posts, as I don't want to throw him under the bus..........LOL.

For some reason, these 4 areas of information did NOT show up in the above Caliber blocks,
I am attempting to figure out why, as I am NOT the sharp knife in the drawer,
when it comes to this electronic stuff..........LOL

Smallest Inside Skirt Waist Diameter
Largest Inside Skirt Waist Diameter
 
Smallest Outside Waist Skirt diameter
Largest Outside Waist Skirt Diameter

Several members helped and provided pellets and or information for the data base,
which I greatly appreciate their help. (I owe all of them a cool one).
rsterne
Subscriber                  
Scott (Motorhead)                   
U J                   
Steve (19Sheridan57)                  
Steven P-52-                   
Franklink    

If you want the other info/data, drop me a PM.
I have another Brand of sizing press I am making the 3 parts for,
and will take photo's of these parts, so I can post them here, I hope.
Posting photo's here is my DOWN FALL,
I can't seem to understand the process and get it right etc,
Back to my corner.........LOL

Your thought and suggestions...........
Tia,
Don               
                  

[Wayne52]

I haven't gotten any store bought pellets for a long time, I cast everything I shoot from 90% of my guns. NOE is supposed
to be coming out with a .177 BBT mold sometime in the near future   I've never even considered sizing any of the pellets
that I cast because they all seem to be pretty darned accurate in my opinion.  NOE's first mold was definitely a flop, I think
the number is NOE 250-35-RF, those pellets from that mold were worthless for any accuracy.  I highly recommend casting
your own, it really enables a lot of perks for sure.  I never worry about almost being out of pellets anymore.  Recently I've
been casting mostly 22 wad cutters for my vintage pistols because I use them much more during the winter for in door shoot-
ing.  They're an excellent wad cutter I like a lot, a little heavier than what most people shoot at 16.5 g but they sure do shoot
great.  This morning I did four five shot groups and one group amazed me, the other three were clover leafed but easy to
completly cover with a dime.

[triggertreat]

Thanks, Don.  I am still digesting your last post to understand what all you have going on with sizing.

Now for posting pictures I simply use the ImgBB website to host all of my pictures.  When I want to post one of those pictures, I simply copy the full image BBCode from the choices they list and paste that into my post.  This is all free and you don't have to worry so much about the image size limits here on the GTA.  This said when uploading images to ImgBB I size them to 1150 pixels using their simple tool, so people don't have to scroll so much to see the whole image on a PC screen of decent size.  Hope this helps.  Here is a random picture I just copied the Full image BBCode of to paste here for an example:

[Nvreloader]

Keith
To keep it KISS, for me........

I use standard Cast bullet Lube sizer, and convert the press for sizing pellets,
with this press I have several options for sizing the pellets, some of the options are,
I can full length size (one diameter),
Expand or reduce head sizes,
Expand and or uniform bent pellet skirts,
Head and Skirt size at the same time,
I can also size down 22 caliber pellets to 20 caliber.

I only make the 3 parts needed, and can use 1 press to size all the standard calibers,
17-20-22-25 calibers, by using NOE sizing bushings.

The reason for the XL information post (with all the selections),
is that I was constantly looking up information as to the pellets dimensions needed to convert/make the sizing bushings/dies etc.
With the Xl program, I can look up the information needed.

To figure out the required tapers needed for the different pellet sizes,
you have to know the small/large diameters and overall length for the pellet etc,
as you are aware of..........    

I would post a sample, but this site does not allow it to post correctly etc
makes the XL information a jumbled mess.

As for the photo part, I also use ImgBB site, but it still takes me a hr to post  a photo,
so I must be doing some thing wrong., and the photo's are never in the correct order,
when I attempt to post them.

I have a strong feeling that it is this plastic box (computer) is causing most of the problems,
I have a new tablet (Android) coming, and hopefully that will make it easier for me.

Your thoughts and or suggestions............
Thanks,
Don
ps, Those look pretty, 25 caliber?             

[bigHUN]

Nvreloader   some pictures would help.

Currently I am using the TrroBB seizers in .22 and .25, but when I got them I did some modifications to my liking.
I don't have a lathe otherwise my life would be much easier