Is it JSB or Me?

[nced]

Over the past few years.  I've found JSB 7.87's, 8.44's, and 10.3's to be consistently INCONSISTENT.  They are usually undersized, and inconsistent in head size.  I no longer buy .177cal JSB pellets.  I haven't had any issues with the AA pellets of the same weights though... go figure 

So what do you use?

AA 7.87's and 8.44's in the TX200
AA 10.3's in the Regal and HW50S

In the past I've found the AA Falcons more accurate than Exact RSs in one of my Hw30s. But I recently bought the AA 7.87 and 8.44 and when comparing them to the JSB equivalents in my 2 Hw30s, 50 and 95 the AA have a larger extreme spread. Only shooting out to 25 yards I don't see any difference in accuracy. Maybe if I stretched it out to 50yd one might prove better. Also I'm not measuring the heads on any of them. I'm comparing the way they fit in the leade which has more to do with the skirt diameter on these particular pellets. The AA do seem to fit slightly snugger which may account for the wider ES. I'm taking my 50 to the range today I'll try them both at 25 and 50 yards.

Interesting..........when I tested the AA 7.87 and AA 8.44 neither were especially accurate from my .177 Beeman R9 at 50 yards compared to the 7.9 Crosman Premier from the die lot marked and dated 1250 count box, however the AA 8.4s were a tad better at grouping than the AA 7.87 (notice the CPL group in the upper left corner)............


I've haven't shot my newer 4.52mm labeled 8.4 AA pellets at 50 yards yet, however they do look promising from these two groups I shot at upstairs 18 yards using my .177 HW95 while sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks. The .177 HW95 has a tighter leade than the Beeman R9 which probably has something to do with better 8.4 AA accuracy. The tins of 4.52mm labeled 8.4 AA domes were so consistent in head size (measured 4.51mm using my digital caliper) that I ran a few through my home made 4.50mm pellet head sizer (from my digital caliper) and shot a couple 5 shot 18 yard groups. I even went ahead and head sized all 4 tins of the AA domes. As a side note, one of the AA pellet tins was dented and there were a few pellets that had damaged skirts but the remaining pellets were good......


Anywhoo

[accu fan]

I would give those aa pellets a go.

[nced]

I would give those aa pellets a go.

The intent is to do so, however recently I weighed some from a tin and found a large variation of weight relative to the Die "B" CPLs I'm currently using. The weight variation doesn't seem to matter much at only 18 yards but I'll need to get out to my practice lane and try the AAs at 50 yards. Another option is to "weight sort" the 4.52mm AA domes (are resized to 4.50mm) and test grouping at 50 yards.

[uncle paulie]

Sounds like the JSB’s I bought this past spring. Weights and head sizes all over the map. I’m guessing(hoping) It was just a bad batch.

pv

[JimmyD.]

IMPORTANT QUESTION/POLL @ END!!

  Now I can attest, as I have a R1 that can put hole in hole, IF the heads are big enough. I use to do it with older JSB’s. Only 5.54 H&N FTT’s don’t fall past head rim. Out of those, I can set the head in the muzzle & see how deep they sit. Do I need tweezers to get it out? Or do they sit a few thousandths-1/64” above heads largest OD? If they’re true 5.53’s they’ll be right at that heads largest OD rim point or a few thousandths above. If the head falls in, I can shoot & tell you it’s gonna be high & left. 5.54’s sit high and shoot slower but better than pellets rattling down barrel & a choke is not the perfect answer.
 
 I do this with all exposed muzzles that I’m looking for precision from beyond 20 yards. I’m honestly quite sick of paying Match Grade price for sub match grade accuracy. I have to say I see 95% accuracy in sizing from ALL slug makers using Corbin dies. I don’t know what happened to Rat Sniper but his RBT slugs were AWESOME. Shorter sidewall, higher speeds easier to reach. NSA, Varmint Knocker are top notch EXCELLENT slugs. Griffins I bought shoot GREAT out of everything from Marauder to Rainstorm to Condor though POI definitely may need adjusting. AVS, I have not tried. If I’m missing anyone else I apologize. Now stay with me guys.

  I am ONLY interested in slugs for high BC long range target shooting/plinking. NSA’s High Speed Press (HSP) is the only brand that makes buying for that reason feasible for me. The fact that my 75 yard range 55 gallon metal drum lids get punctured by these 28-36 grain .22 slugs makes pellets the preferred choice until fields are plowed & I can see visual strikes & dry dirt blow in a direction. JSB 18.13’s on up retain enough energy to do this at 150-200 but; THE INCONSISTENCIES IN THE PELLETS IS MAKING ME A SLUG MAN 100%!!!! Are you sick of it? I know I am.

  I don’t need massive power at under 100 yards for targets. Besides my .177’s I’d prefer 18.13’s to 33.95’s in .22 and honestly the 25.39 .22’s, to 25.43 Kings are my favorites for anything 75 yards to 200 in pellets from .22 or .25. The fact that I see what these slugs are capable of has kept me from buying a .257 as it’s only use for me would be true Varmint hunting or targets on windy days past 200 yards and I didn’t have much trouble going to 316 with 31.9 RBT’s @ 940 fps. It STILL had enough power to hit a flat slab of 11”x14” Shale & leave only its head welded to rock. That’s a lot of power & my liking Diabolos for safety is still a need. I’d honestly rather shoot a .17HMR or .17WMR if able as V-Max’s at those speeds just disintegrate when they hit almost anything.

  So Here’s The Question. If special dies/tools were available (100% consistent made on super high end CNC machinery +-1 micron impervious to temp change, hardened tool steel, etc.)
  WOULD YOU BE INTERESTED IN SIZING PELLET HEADS CONSISTENTLY?
  There’d be no more batching them once heads were sized consistently. Competitors may take it a step further by weighing but most problems are head size related.

  So said special die/tool would be available in configuration to size up, or down. Set, or slightly adjustable for common range of your ordered head size. Think of buying 3, getting 4th free, & ALL OF THEM would end up being exactly the same as you wanted them. No bent skirts, no bending of pellets at waist when sizing up or down 1-3 thousandth. Would you be interested? I know I am and already onboard & communicating with that engineer!! I don’t have a lot of details yet. All I know is I explained my issues and desires. I explained I don’t want to have to cast, screw & unscrew a heavy die for a 2-6 cavity mold. Not for pellets I sure don’t/won’t do it.

  So guys, answer here please if you’d rather go through a tin sizing all to perfection rather than batching them into possibly useable piles.  🙏 Thank You All!!!

 

 

[uncle paulie]

If such a tool was available I would be interested. Depending on cost of course. I would think it would need to be adjustable as so many guns prefer different head sizes, even those of the same model can be very different.

pv

pv

[SilentMatt]

As I replied on AGN to a similar subject, I wouldn't put any faith in those Harbor Freight and Amazon junk calipers.

[Rick67]

If such a tool was available I would be interested. Depending on cost of course. I would think it would need to be adjustable as so many guns prefer different head sizes, even those of the same model can be very different.

pv

pv

I do have one, the resizing tool:







It was given (?) to me as a gift by a friend of mine, or I think I bought it for P100 or $2 (Philippine money)---I can no longer recall it, lol!

The hole is tapered (drilled with a tapered drill bit), so I would put a washer or 2 (or none) to adjust the head size.

I would poke out the resized pellet with a cotton bud so as not to damage the head.

Sorry but I forgot the machinist's specs  ..

I had to have one because we had competitions where we were required to use local pellets (big heads) and my Air Arms S5 LW barrel would not accommodate them in their original shape.

Some airgun shooters cannot afford JSBs/AAs/H & Ns (they are so expensive in my home country!), hence the ruling to make the competition fair for everyone.

[antithesis]

Their qc just don't seem to be what it once was...now I know that just by their thin skirted design and soft lead, but I have been having a A LOT of deformed skirts for maybe  a year now.

[KnifeMaker]

As I replied on AGN to a similar subject, I wouldn't put any faith in those Harbor Freight and Amazon junk calipers.

Oddly enough, I have one of the HF electronic digita mic's and it matches my high end mic's Both Starrett, Brown and Sharp and Mitutoya  perfectly.


But it is their more expensive mic. 


Knife

[Buldawg76]

I have found JSBs to be very inconsistent for a couple years now and buy only AAs and have so far had good luck with them in all small bore calibers. I do not sort, size or weigh at all and have several guns that will put pellet thru the same hole at 30 yards if i do my part.  .177 TX200 with 22mm kit, Crosman challenger, 1720T, cz200, .22 mutant, AT44 long, .25 flash, Brod to name a few.

So all I have bought for two years is AA pellets.

BD

[nced]

As I replied on AGN to a similar subject, I wouldn't put any faith in those Harbor Freight and Amazon junk calipers.

Since most pellet heads are oval by a couple 1/100ths of a mm I don't put much faith in the "absolute accuracy" of any measuring device at the second metric decimal point. Actually, I really don't think the "absolutely accurate" measurement is important at all, only that the measurement (however rounded off) is consistent.

You're showing a pellet suspended from the anvils of a micrometer. Considering the malleability of lead pellets (especially pure lead varieties), I do question how much displacement of lead during the measurement using that much "micrometer adjustment".

I also have a couple micrometers but found it more consistent to use a good (not most expensive) digital caliper to get relative pellet head sizes using this method..........


I still contend that as long as the pellet heads are large enough to be "sized a tad" when loading into the leade it really doesn't matter if the pellet heads vary a bit at the "second metric decimal point" because all pellets shot will start down the bore exactly the size and shape of the leade. The issue comes when the pellet heads are too small to be sized in the leade. My measurements of thousands of pellet heads of various brands using a good digital caliper with proper technique has proven that pellet heads CAN be sorted accurately enough that differences in head sizes can be felt when loading in the leade. If there is no resistance felt when pushing the pellet into the leade then the pellet head is too small to be "sized" in the leade. At one THAGC field target match I was shooting supposedly 4.52mm JSB Exacts and I had two dry fires during that match. I was thinking that I forgot to load those two pellets but then I noticed a JSB Exact flip out of the leade when re-latching my R9 break barrel. Supposedly 4.52mm Exacts all fit loosely in the R9 leade so I couldn't "gage" pellet seating pressure with the finger tip!

Anywhoo......I solved my pellet head consistency issues by making a pellet head sizer which makes my CPLs a consistent diameter and "roundness"...........
Before sizing........


After sizing.........


I really don't care what the actual "second metric decimal" is as long as consistent. LOL....just for grinns I tried to size some supposedly 4.52mm JSB Exacts down to 4.50mm with my sizer but 75% of the Exacts fell through the sizing ring without being reduced. I tried the same test using 4.52mm Air Arms domes and almost all were "head sized" using my 4.50mm sizer! Matter of fact, I was rather impressed with the consistency of the AA dome 4.52mm pellet heads that I shot a couple groups, one straight from the tin unsized and one with heads sized to 4.50mm (as displayed on the caliper). The sized pellets did seen to group a bit better, however since I do my testing sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks the minor difference could be "shooter induced".........

[antithesis]

The biggest problem I have with cheap calipers is they always shift zero after stretching them out past 3" or so... irrelevant for this conversation I suppose, but repeatability within a thou is usually fine in this range.  Of course it's Chinese, so ymmv🙄

[subscriber]

  So Here’s The Question. If special dies/tools were available (100% consistent made on super high end CNC machinery +-1 micron impervious to temp change, hardened tool steel, etc.)
  WOULD YOU BE INTERESTED IN SIZING PELLET HEADS CONSISTENTLY?
 

James,

This thread discusses pellet sizer approaches:  https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=161620.20

I took another look at that thread because I am poised to make sizers with tapering bores for myself.  With these, you push the pellet in to a pre-set (but adjustable) depth that corresponds to the desired head diameter.  The taper would maintain the typical differential in diameter between head and skirt.

One could add a hard depth stop at the head, that can also be pre-set for depth and thus diameter.  By setting the die and nose and skirt punches to slightly compress the length of the pellet, the skirt, and even the head could be increased in diameter. 

Now, I believe that it is easier to size pellets down consistently, than to bump up their head diameter.  The lack of radial die support at the waist would tend to have the pellet bulge asymmetrically when pushing hard enough to bump up heads, compare to sizing them down.   The force required to flare up the skirt is much lower, but it also has the potential for unintended distortion.

My biggest problem is pellets that are hard to single load in break barrel springers and my IZM 46M SSP pistol (it also has an exposed breech that is finger loaded similar to a break barrel springer).  I find that pellets that have obvious, but light and even force required to fully finger seat the pellet, flush with the rear of the barrel give me the best results.  So, I am mainly interested in sizing down some harder to load pellet types, and evening out some of the moderate loading force one, by making the pellets more consistent in diameter and roundness.

Rather than post my sizer dimensions here, I will post images of the actual sizing dies once I have made them (.177 and .22).

Your questions suggest you have manufacturing ability.  That is a very good thing, as I just have a small hobby lathe and mill at home.

You must do whatever makes sense to you.  My suggestion is to keep your first product simple, and offer it at lower cost; rather than including features that adds hugely to the complexity and cost; with capabilities that might never be used by the average customer.   And that lots of them would not want to pay for.

If I could have the two dies with adjustable pushers for $40 each, I would have sprung for them.  Instead, I have spent almost $100 for tools and materials to make my own.  What these might sell for could become a very important question.  Sure, people will buy them for $20 each, but is there any money in making them for that...

[HunterWhite]

I truly think that we pay WAAAAAYYYYY TOO MUCH for this junk. I have seen 22LR for 3.9 cents per round.
A quick check at pyramid reveals this:

JSB Match Diabolo Exact Jumbo Heavy .22 Cal, 18.13 Grains, Domed, 500ct
$18.99

That's 3.8 cents each!

Then there's the polymags.

Predator Polymag .22 Cal, 16.0 Grains, Pointed, 200ct
Predator International
Starting at $15.99

That's like 8 cents.

Some of these pellets sell for 10 even 14 cents if I remember correctly.

Why are we paying so much for poor quality bits of lead? There is no case, no primer, no powder and no assembly.

I think that we should collectively boycott the profiteers until they stop gouging us.

Hunter

[subscriber]

Why are we paying so much for poor quality bits of lead? There is no case, no primer, no powder and no assembly.

I agree that pellets should not cost anywhere near as much as quality .22 rimfire ammo.  Not when the weight of materials is so much less.

It seems PA's business model is to sell air rifles cheap, and pellets at a huge markup.  This is the same model as inkjet printers being cheap, but replacement ink cartridges costing a fortune.

Obviously you are free to boycott PA, but getting everyone to do that is going to be tough.  The best "revenge" would be for you to make pellets and sell them at a reasonable price.  I would support that idea...

[HunterWhite]

It seems like there are a number of people producing pellets now. I find that the Discovery pellets shoot 95% as well as the 4 cent pellets. Some pellets in 177 cal are 1 cent. Rather than chasing the dream buying more expensive pellets I think that I'll just use the cheap stuff. It's just not much different.

Hunter

[Buldawg76]

JimmyD

I would be interested in sizing dies made to size to a specific size or up/down sizers all depending on costs. I am most interested in sizing .177 from big to smaller sizes such as one for 4.53 and one for 4.52s.

BD

[Bryan Heimann]

I stick to Crosman ammo in the tin, with a few exceptions and most of those exceptions are experimental.  But some are also a staple.

Crosman ammo in the tin is still only 1-2 pennies apiece and also still accurate and deadly.

I have a good supply of .22 baracudas for the new disco and they shoot well.  Suprise suprise however, the gun likes crow magnums so I'll pay a premium price to get more of those.  Also hard hitting .177 RWS Supermags for the RWS 34's. 

At about the same price of some cheaper .22 LR offerings, I will still pay for good pellets when the results justify the expense.  For me that is .22 H&N Crow Mags and Barracudas, and .177 RWS Supermags.

Let's not forget, that .22 Shorts, CB caps, "Sub-Sonics" and all other specialty .22 ammo that is definitely not "value added" all cost more than standard velocity .22 LR despite that there is less material and theoretically should be cheaper right?  There are reasons for that- 1. Volume and 2. Quality.

There is no pellet on this Earth that is produced and sold at the same volume and bulk, bargain priced .22 LR.

Also, try to run a whole brick of that 3.8 cents a round ammo through your .22 auto and record it so we can see the malfunctions.  Also record the target so we can see the fliers.  THEN we talk about the cost of ammo?

I can get away with some cheap pellets, because my airguns still fire the bad ones with acceptable accuracy.  When it comes to .22 LR, I don't shoot anything but CCI.  I keep CCI Standard Velocity, Quiet, and Stingers in stock.  Why?  Because they always go bang and each hit almost the exact same poi at 20 yards in my gun.  I would bet you could shoot 4 rounds of each of these in my guns and that 12 shot group be a better group that some of that bargain &^^& you're getting for 3.8 cents a round.

JSB, they will learn.  People will vote with their wallets, and JSB be forced to adapt.  If you can't beat CPHP from the tin, at the price of .22 LR, you get scrapped.

[gendoc]

never have had good accuracy with cphp's, but do have great results from the
cpd's. so not all guns and ammo are equal which we all have learned from our PB days.....