Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.



Author Topic: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.  (Read 562 times))

Offline Tuntland and Co.

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • yes
  • Real Name: Jayson
Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« on: February 15, 2019, 01:19:51 PM »
I just finished my first 101 reseal, and currently have 3 more to go.  I am a gunsmith that is relatively new to air gun smithing, and am looking for some help.

I grew up with the Crosman 101, and may be a little biased about their handling and aesthetics.  I also know guys have been tuning them for a long time, but I am new to rebuilding and I can already tell that I would like to be into tuning.  That being said, I have lots of questions.  Please feel free to answer all or just select the ones you are solid on.

1.  Are there any renowned 101 tuners currently offering their services?  I know Dave Gunter used to be the man, but have also learned that he is no longer with us.

2.  What are the strong points and the weak points of the Crosman 100 series rifle as it came stock?

3.  What are the easiest places to upgrade the 100 Series airgun?

4.  What are the basic concepts of tuning a multi pump pneumatic in general?

5.  What areas could use improvement or even redesign for someone who was ambitious and has the machines and tooling?

6.  Best places to source parts for these air guns as well as general seals? 

7.  Best types of seals for certain applications?

8.  Is there a better platform to build the ultimate multi pump pneumatic than the Crosman and Benjamin/Sheridan designs?

9.  If I am not asking the right questions, please tell me what questions I need to be asking, and perhaps even what the answers to those questions are.

I know I am asking a lot, but I hope that in some way, down the line I will be able to reward the air gun community with some quality niche parts and services.  I greatly appreciate all of the help you can be to a young pup starting out. 
  • USA, Illinois, La Moille

Offline 45flint

  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1866
  • yes
  • Real Name: Steve
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2019, 04:42:04 PM »
Funny I happen to be in Moline Illinois about a hour from you over the weekend.  Way too many question to take on all a once so let me just give you some quick thoughts before I get back on the road.  I am no airgun mechanic but the 100 series can be made to do very well.  I happened upon one 3 years ago as one of my first collecting buys.  Itís much more powerful than any 101-2 I have had and Iím sure itís been worked on.  Never had it apart but I think from the way it pumps it has a O ring pump cup.  Could be from Mac-1 in California who makes these?  The gun did come from the west coast.  The 101 when on for a very long time and valves kept changing, one of the challenges for you.  The early valves to me are cool cause they are all brass but iíve not found them powerful?  I know most guyís put the latest valves in when they find the old one.  I need to take my good one apart and see what makes it tick inside.  Just goes against messing with something thatís working.

One of the big advantages to me of working on Crosman 101-2 is there are so many out there so they are not a lot of money.  They come apart easy and are not hard to work on.  They have a totally classic look.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 08:00:27 AM by 45flint »
  • Wooster, Ohio

Offline Tuntland and Co.

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • yes
  • Real Name: Jayson
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2019, 06:30:32 PM »
Thanks for the comment.  Feel free to stop by for a chat if you are ever in the area.  I would love to know what goodies you find in your 101 if you do ever decide to take it apart for a look.   I have seen the flat top, o-ring sealed pistons offered by Mac1, and will be ordering one soon.  Any idea what the pros and cons of the flat top system are?  Obviously I would think there would be more air compressed per stroke.

Thanks Again.
  • USA, Illinois, La Moille

Offline 45flint

  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1866
  • yes
  • Real Name: Steve
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2019, 06:41:56 PM »
Thanks for the comment.  Feel free to stop by for a chat if you are ever in the area.  I would love to know what goodies you find in your 101 if you do ever decide to take it apart for a look.   I have seen the flat top, o-ring sealed pistons offered by Mac1, and will be ordering one soon.  Any idea what the pros and cons of the flat top system are?  Obviously I would think there would be more air compressed per stroke.

Thanks Again.

When I get home Iíll pull out that cup and see what it is.  Thatís not major surgery lol
  • Wooster, Ohio

Offline Tuntland and Co.

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • yes
  • Real Name: Jayson
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2019, 11:42:07 PM »
That is a very nice gesture.  Thank you!
  • USA, Illinois, La Moille

Offline ped

  • Marksman
  • ***
  • Posts: 475
  • yes
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2019, 05:48:41 AM »
FTP don't compress more air but when set correctly deliver more of the air into the valve as they eliminate more head space
so in effect they make it more efficient which reduces pump strokes in relation to a std pump cup
  • uk

Offline 45flint

  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1866
  • yes
  • Real Name: Steve
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2019, 08:46:57 AM »
The above seems to be the characteristics of my rifle pumps up more quickly.  You might want to give us the FPS per pump your getting with your current build? 
  • Wooster, Ohio

Offline ped

  • Marksman
  • ***
  • Posts: 475
  • yes
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2019, 02:25:35 PM »
an o ring piston head to convert the 101 rod from a leather seal
  • uk

Offline Tuntland and Co.

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • yes
  • Real Name: Jayson
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2019, 09:29:12 PM »
I will try to get some chronograph readings soon, to establish a starting point.  I have been having a heck of a time getting a Pro Chrono Plus to work with indoor lighting of any kind (have tried about 8-10 different setups).  Hopefully will get that sorted out soon. 

Thanks for the photos.  That brass FTP looks great.  Did you make it?

Also, the pump rod on the one I just did was adjustable, so I set the headspace to zero.  I can see how a FTP would still have less space and would work a little better.  How reliable do the FTP o ring seals seem to be over time when compared to the cups?

Thanks again guys.
  • USA, Illinois, La Moille

Offline Joe Kid

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • it'll shine when it shines
  • Real Name: Keith
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2019, 04:05:26 AM »
FTP - Since a cup acts as an open check valve on the return / intake stroke and an o-ring seal is bi-directional, sealing on both the charge and return stroke,  would it not try to vacuum the air out of the compression chamber?  Sorry if this may sound dumb.  Just curious.
  • USA, Central WI

Offline ped

  • Marksman
  • ***
  • Posts: 475
  • yes
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2019, 02:36:49 PM »
FTP do vacuum on the return but the valve check seals the air in the valve
the original piston head even when adjusted has little air pockets that will allow some air not to be compressed into the valve
the beauty of o rings are that they're cheap and easy to replace over a leather piston washer
  • uk

Offline louisvanhovell

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 66
  • yes
  • Real Name: Louis van Hovell
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2019, 04:27:09 AM »
Hi, I buy parts mostly from JG Airguns and Precision Pellet.
And Ped! Ped has fantastic skills and lots of cool tuning ideas, as with the o-ring conversion.
Rick Willnecker of Precision Pellet is a real expert and always very helpful.
http://www.airgunshop.net/
  • The Netherlands, Amsterdam

Offline 45flint

  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1866
  • yes
  • Real Name: Steve
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2019, 08:42:27 AM »
Hi, I buy parts mostly from JG Airguns and Precision Pellet.
And Ped! Ped has fantastic skills and lots of cool tuning ideas, as with the o-ring conversion.
Rick Willnecker of Precision Pellet is a real expert and always very helpful.
http://www.airgunshop.net/

JG Airguns and Precision Pellet here as well. 
  • Wooster, Ohio

Offline Tuntland and Co.

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • yes
  • Real Name: Jayson
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2019, 10:31:09 PM »
Ok sorry for the pause.  I finallllly found a light setup that my picky chronograph would accept.  I am asuradely a novice in chrono setup...

Here are my numbers per pump with 14.3g Domed Premiers:
1 - 152
2 - 297
3 - 285
4 - 430
5 - 480
6 - 518
7 - 548
8 - 571 - It had some residual air after firing 8 pumps, so I emptied the compression chamber after each shot from here on out.
9 - 592
10 - 605
11 - 621
12 - 636

A flat top piston is on order from Mac1.  I assume I need to figure out how to get it to dump all of its air.  Lighter spring?  Heavier Hammer? 
  • USA, Illinois, La Moille

Offline 45flint

  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1866
  • yes
  • Real Name: Steve
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2019, 01:08:48 PM »
Ok sorry for the pause.  I finallllly found a light setup that my picky chronograph would accept.  I am asuradely a novice in chrono setup...

Here are my numbers per pump with 14.3g Domed Premiers:
1 - 152
2 - 297
3 - 285
4 - 430
5 - 480
6 - 518
7 - 548
8 - 571 - It had some residual air after firing 8 pumps, so I emptied the compression chamber after each shot from here on out.
9 - 592
10 - 605
11 - 621
12 - 636

A flat top piston is on order from Mac1.  I assume I need to figure out how to get it to dump all of its air.  Lighter spring?  Heavier Hammer?

For reference here is my 102 that Iím sure had work done on it.  Iíve never got close to this on my reseals though in my backyard Iím not sure I need this power in my other rifles:

Crosman 102- probably originally 1930ís

Crosman Premier Ultra Magnums.  22  14.3 grains

Pumps.      FPS.        Foot-pounds
2.              378
3.              453
4.              509
5.              556
6.              594.        11.22
7.              631.        12.65
  • Wooster, Ohio

Offline Tuntland and Co.

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • yes
  • Real Name: Jayson
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2019, 02:20:00 PM »
Thanks for the comparison numbers.  At least I have a base line to know where to start.  I think I know one area that needs addressed, but haven't decided the best way to address it yet.  When the exhaust assembly is tightend down, part of the transfer air hole is blocked off. Three options come to mind.

1. I could try to back it off a bit and see if it still holds air. 
2. I have also thought about shimming the compression chamber rearward .020 or so.
3. Or perhaps just extend/slot the hole in the exhaust assembly and tightening it back down. 

I believe I read somewhere that Mac1 is getting 20 Foot-pounds out of their steroid sheridan builds.  Any confirmation of this? 
  • USA, Illinois, La Moille

Offline 45flint

  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1866
  • yes
  • Real Name: Steve
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2019, 02:30:53 PM »
Here ya go, bought a Mac-1 Steriod C9A last year this is from previous post:

Here is my comparison of two pellets in my Sterioded Benjamin-Sheridan Silver Streak in 20 cal.  The H&N 11.42 grain and the Benjamin 14.3 grain.  The test showed basic physics works: energy is about equally but speed changes.  If accuracy is the same what would you prefer?  My assumption would be target shooter wants the speed and hunters want the heavier pellet?  But energy is the same? 
 

Pumps.           FPS H&N 11.42.                   FPS  Benjamin 14.3
3.                  523.                                    471
4.                  592.                                    528
5.                  648.                                    583
6.                  697.      12.32 FP.                 610.     11.84 FP
7.                  736.      13.74.                     660.     13.84
8.                  776.      15.27.                     686.     14.95
10.                829.                                    735
12.                876.      19.46 FP.                 794.      20.02 FP
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 02:41:32 PM by 45flint »
  • Wooster, Ohio

Offline Tuntland and Co.

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • yes
  • Real Name: Jayson
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2019, 02:43:15 PM »
Holy smokes, that's a hot pumper!  Awesome numbers.  Thanks for sharing.  Personally I would be hunting with the lighter of those two, but there are positives and trade offs for both.  As long as accuracy is reasonable in both, I would take the flatter shooting of the two. 
  • USA, Illinois, La Moille

Offline 45flint

  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1866
  • yes
  • Real Name: Steve
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2019, 04:28:54 PM »
The power is there but the noise gets too much for me.
  • Wooster, Ohio

Offline Tuntland and Co.

  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • yes
  • Real Name: Jayson
Re: Crosman 101 Tuning, Souping, Steriod etc.
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2019, 04:40:24 PM »
I can imagine it gets pretty loud, but such is the beauty of a pumper.  It is only as loud as you pump it.  Might as well have the hot end if and when you desire it. 
  • USA, Illinois, La Moille

GTA - The best place for discussion about Air Guns.
 

Sponsored Ad: