Open Question: Would you buy, at around $800 a newly built Giss_ Actioned

[Yogi]

Marty,

My understanding is that as the air is compressed in front of the piston, the pressure rises to somewhere between 3,000-5,000 psi for just an instant.  At these pressures, petroleum products easily vaporize and explode.  Maybe a ceramic coating, like they use on the space shuttle would work?

-Y

[MartyMcFly]

Marty,

My understanding is that as the air is compressed in front of the piston, the pressure rises to somewhere between 3,000-5,000 psi for just an instant.  At these pressures, petroleum products easily vaporize and explode.  Maybe a ceramic coating, like they use on the space shuttle would work?

-Y

Yes, the temperature gets very high for a thousandths of a second, but Teflon is a solid with a melting point of 600 K. My thinking was that there would not be enough time for the temperature spike to actually raise it to 600 K and vaporize the Teflon. Just to clarify, I am not advocating it’s use as a paste, but as a coating just like on a frying pan.

-Marty

[Benny]

I'm a little late to the conversation but I think it would be an interesting idea. Kind of like the old Whiscombe and Park rifles but a lot cheaper! 

[HectorMedina]

Hector,

Since you are rethinking “EVERYTHING” about the internals of a spring gun I was wondering what your thoughts are about friction reduction inside the compression chamber. I ask because for the most part the largest change in airgun design pertaining to friction reduction appears to be the use of moly for lubricants and use of self lubricating seals. Sadly, these improvements are often an aftermarket fix. Is DIANA considering any other friction reduction methods, such as coating the compression chamber, trigger sear, or piston contact points with something more advanced like Teflon? I have no clue about the cost vs. benefit, but thought it worth asking the question to gain more insight.

-Marty

Marty;

In a way, yes.

So far, my research tells me that there are things that truly add to the efficiency, and things that do not so much.

And it changes between Breakbarrels and Sliding Chamber guns.

For example the pistons:
The LGV and the 34/340 (when converted to Steel spring to regulate accurately the energy yield), benefit most from an Anti-Bounce Piston.
For the 430, 460, 48->56 models, the best is the ORing piston with Teflon riding rings and slippery sealing ORings.
Now, the problem with delivering "Formula 1" cars to "Sunday drivers" is that many consumers simply cannot be careful enough with all that power. So the gun dies.
And if you want to deliver guns that are "customer proof", then what exists is already as good as commercially possible.
That is the reason why I no longer sell the HMO Piston, and the ABP are sold only on an 'installed' basis. It is not fun to have to replace something that you KNOW was damaged in abuse (not use), and yet, it needs to be done, all in the name of upholding the brands (CCA as welll as DIANA).
There IS a way to achieve something sort of "halfway there", and we are looking into it. AAMoF, I am waiting on some piston BODIES to make some prototypes.
Whether DIANA will adopt the technology or not is a different story, but the technology will be there for them to see.
IF we can achieve a better/less expensive way of making the pistons, and at the same time, make them better, then we will have arguments for the adoption, if not, then this level of refinement will have to stay in the realm of the custom gunsmith catering to a discerning clientele.
A lot of you, and even the creator himself, have asked my why DIANA has not considered the reduced bore compression chamber. The truth is that we HAVE considered and found it inadequate in the countries where elevation differences between venues are larger than 1,000'.
The reduced compression chamber looses too much as the gun is brought to higher elevations.
Best solution here is a short-stroked piston. Again, something that needs to have a dual "ying-yang" argument for its adoption (less cost AND better performance).

And if we now talk of the springs: There are already springs that are Teflon coated and are wider in body diameter, so that they do not need the sleeve.
But some users, and even some "well respected tuners" descry that and refer to these as "springs almost too big for the piston". And I put this between quotes because I have the EMails to prove it. Of course I will not mention names, but we cannot risk that in a production unit.
The metallurgy of the springs has also changed. With so much of the world high-spec steel now being made in Japan, and less and less in Sweden and Germany, there is a clear vacuum of material advancement. But the Japanese companies that make the very specific steels for high-performance/long-endurance springs are not interested in the airgun business. Automotive deals of billions of dollars are what moves these companies, and so, even if the knowledge exists, it is impossible to apply.

Finally consider that the spring-piston airgun is becoming harder and harder to sell in a world where compressors are becoming cheaper and cheaper.

We do understand the appeal of the self-powered airgun, believe me; and so, we are looking at all possible avenues of innovation.

Sorry that I cannot give you a more detailed response, but most of this is work in progress.

Keep well and shoot straight!






HM

[MartyMcFly]

Hector,

Thank you for providing the commercial perspective. Well explained as usual and encouragement for the gun smiths and tinkerers out there that enjoy innovating beyond the original factory specs/optimizations.

I myself like a good bang for the buck and simplicity, but there is also the other Jekyll & Hyde side of me that wants to wringout the last morsel of performance without regard for economics, just because it’s there.

Keep up the good work!

-Marty

[HectorMedina]

Thanks for your kind words, Marty, greatly appreciated.

Today I had a really good conversation with someone that is EXTREMELY knowledgeable about the US Market, and he was commenting that the "breakbarrels are dead".
Interesting statement and one that bears qualification:
He really meant the breakbarrels are not being sold in good numbers any more.

I thought that it would be sensible to use the 65 action as a model because being a breakbarrel it has less parts (less things to make and to fail), and the cost can be kept in line, but if  I am interpreting correctly his figures on the market then, truly, the breakbarrels are destined to go the way of the dinosaurs.
In a way it makes sense, you have in the market the accumulated production of over 130 years of breakbarrels (minus attrition), still that means a LOT of breakbarrels, enough to satisfy the curiosity of anyone interested.
For sure there will always be the $100 breakbarrel, it's simply too much of an impulse buy temptation to NOT have it in a department store / super-center. But the high end gas piston/high quality breakbarrel of new manufacture seems to be destined to extinction.
And how long will it be till the fixed barrels also go that way? When presented in detail with the ideas we've been venting here in this thread, he conceded that a recoil-less, easy to shoot, autonomous, medium-to-high power airgun would have some appeal, he also commented that what he saw from the market was the need for better and less expensive compressors.

So, this conversation gives me food for thought. It raises the bar of performance to the point where it will not be easy to stay within the set MSRP

Anyway, the door is always open to ideas.

Again, thanks for your kind words. Keep well and shoot straight!






HM

[Mossonarock]

I find the talk of some kind of bull-pup configuration to be interesting. I'd really like to see a quality side-lever bull-pup whether single piston or GISS. I say quality because I know there's that Chinese one floating around out there but the quality isn't quite up there enough for me to get one.

I'm a small guy and its hard for me to shoot a rifle off-hand if it weighs more than 6 pounds. However, if its center of gravity was brought back at least behind the forearm (preferably over or just behind the trigger), it would be easier for me to shoot off-hand if it weighs a bit more. Otherwise, I'm shooting from a rest. Also, if I go hunting, its in dense brush/forest and a long gun is unwieldy is such conditions. Something shorter is much easier to handle.

[triggerfest]

I find the talk of some kind of bull-pup configuration to be interesting. I'd really like to see a quality side-lever bull-pup whether single piston or GISS. I say quality because I know there's that Chinese one floating around out there but the quality isn't quite up there enough for me to get one.

I'm a small guy and its hard for me to shoot a rifle off-hand if it weighs more than 6 pounds. However, if its center of gravity was brought back at least behind the forearm (preferably over or just behind the trigger), it would be easier for me to shoot off-hand if it weighs a bit more. Otherwise, I'm shooting from a rest. Also, if I go hunting, its in dense brush/forest and a long gun is unwieldy is such conditions. Something shorter is much easier to handle.

Exactly, a kind of compact side lever Diana 54, with gasram, with an output of about 14-15 ft/lb and a bull barrel. Oh, and a weaver rail please !