I cleaned the barrel then.. what the heck?



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Offline UlteriorModem

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I cleaned the barrel then.. what the heck?
« on: January 22, 2019, 06:52:54 PM »
I was playing today with my recently rebuilt Benjamin Mayhem NP2. Also trying a new scope. Yes I double checked all the screws were tight.

Yea lots of variables there but... it was not very consistant even using it's favorite pellets H&N FTTs. Some high some low some left some right no real 'grouping' at all., maybe like 3-4" at 100 feet. I putzed around trying to zero the scope but it too was chasing a moving target. I dont relly know if it was the scope or if it was me. The scope had a pretty rough trip, you might have seen the bashed up box.

Anyhow I figured I would clean the barrel. Ran a patch worm with a patch with Ballistol on it and it came out black! So I ran several more patches through until it was clean then ran a couple of dry patches through it.

I then proceeded to take a few test shots figuring it wound not have moved much and... what in the heck! It was spraying things all over the place. I mean like 4-6 inches center to center! I felt happy to just hit the darn pellet trap! I had to move the scope like 24 clicks in azmith to get it back any where near 'center'!

What could account for such a dramatic difference?

Offline mobilehomer

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Re: I cleaned the barrel then.. what the heck?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2019, 06:58:14 PM »
Sounds like broke scope syndrome. Do you have another to check against? If you do, when trying it out - DO NOT ADJUST windage and elevation on the "try scope". All you are doing is to verify grouping of the rifle, NOT zero. It doesn't matter if is a foot off aim point. just look for group.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 07:00:57 PM by mobilehomer »
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Offline Brazos

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Re: I cleaned the barrel then.. what the heck?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2019, 09:06:24 PM »
Anytime you clean the barrel expect some accuracy chaos for a while until the barrel pushes all the oil out and leads back up.  So it probably made whatever problem you had worse.  You did the right thing to try cleaning the barrel to see if it resolved your issue.  I suggest to keep shooting to season the barrel but in your case it may not resolve your issue and if it is the scope more shooting may make it worse.  As always I will throw in one disclaimer.  If it is windy, even a little, then that most likely is the culprit.
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Offline Yarddog

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Re: I cleaned the barrel then.. what the heck?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2019, 09:07:58 PM »
The few times I've cleaned my barrels, it takes some time and pellets to shoot back in. I'd sure check my stock and trigger guard screws, too, as long as I was at it.
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Re: I cleaned the barrel then.. what the heck?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2019, 09:28:16 PM »
Sounds like broke scope syndrome. Do you have another to check against? If you do, when trying it out - DO NOT ADJUST windage and elevation on the "try scope". All you are doing is to verify grouping of the rifle, NOT zero. It doesn't matter if is a foot off aim point. just look for group.

This i agree with, try a different scope. Another thing i would sudjest is checkout the barrel seal ring and lube it up. After cleaning my arms, it takes maybe 50-100 pellets to finally break in again.
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Offline UlteriorModem

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Re: I cleaned the barrel then.. what the heck?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2019, 10:35:09 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions all.

I will try another scope, in fact the scope that was "replaced" which seemed a better shooter.

BTW, here is a pic of the box that the scope, and some pellets arrived in :P

Clean Label by Tom Whit, on Flickr

Online AG72

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Re: I cleaned the barrel then.. what the heck?
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2019, 09:26:47 AM »
Most of my guns need a bunch of pellets trough the barrel before the accurasy come back after a cleaning,  shot atleast 30-50 pellets without any adjustement and see what happens if she starts to group the shots you can continue shooting but if it still spray them all over there might be the scope, is it any open sight on your gun?  If so try to shoot with them to see if the pattern is the same or not, here is a image of a target i shot with my Hw30s after a cleaning, no adjustement was done...
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Offline Sfttailrdr46

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Re: I cleaned the barrel then.. what the heck?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2019, 09:33:52 AM »
Back when I was a competitive shooter we always did a little barrel seasoning before shooting for score. After MY Remington 513T .22 was cleaned it would take about 20 shots before the rifle was back to my zero. Any time I clean a barrel I will make no changes to the sights fo at least ~20 + shots. I will also take at least 5 to 10 warm up shots to tune back into the rifle or handgun I am shooting before I worry about POA/POI. Also I always confirm my zero before hunting to insure that nothing was bumped or damaged before the hunt. I hate not making a clean one shot kill.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 09:38:23 AM by Sfttailrdr46 »
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Offline mikeyb

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Re: I cleaned the barrel then.. what the heck?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2019, 10:44:04 AM »
Sometimes (VERY rarely) you get a bad barrel that will never be accurate. Bad choke, poor (or no) rifling, or bad crown. Usually best to return those if that is cause of the problem.

Baffle clipping on suppressors can happen, but that is also pretty rare in my experience. Have heard some stories about barrel cleaning causing baffle misalignment resulting in clipping and accuracy issues, but have never seen it firsthand.

IMO 99% of the time poor accuracy is due to bad scope/mounts, rifle break-in (variable-velocity), or the simplest "loose stock screws" on magnum springers. You've checked those screws already. Longest break-in I've seen is ~200 pellets.

Weak scope mounts are a big problem with magnum springers. Even a good scope can't overcome slipping mounts and a one screw mount with a tiny "stop" pin will eventually fail. The BEST solution is to use a decent quality one-piece 4+ screw mount. This gives the scope a "chance" to provide some accuracy.

I chased far too many magnum springer accuracy issues that were scope/mount related and will no longer purchase ANY springer unless it comes with open sights from the factory. I shoot the open sights for up to 1000 pellets (testing velocity, consistency, and accuracy), THEN maybe I'll mount the included (or better) scope.

Since the Mayhem looks to have factory open sights, I suggest you shoot a couple hundred pellets using those to see if the rifle is worth keeping.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 10:46:58 AM by mikeyb »
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Offline UlteriorModem

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Re: I cleaned the barrel then.. what the heck?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2019, 11:24:52 AM »
It does have open sights though I rarely used them except for indoor 'testing'. I had to remove the rear sight due to it conflicting with the scope install.

I will run a couple dozen more rounds down the pipe and make further assessment before I do anything else.

The scope is a UTG 4-16 x 56 which came with UTG's "Twist Lock see through' rings.

https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/UTG_Accushot_4_16x56_AO_Rifle_Scope_SWAT_EZ_TAP_Illuminated_Etched_Glass_Mil_Dot_Reticle_1_8_MOA_30mm_Tube_Twist_Lock_See_Thru_Weaver_Picatinny_Rings/4223

Not sure why they call the rings 'see through' though.

Offline mikeyb

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Re: I cleaned the barrel then.. what the heck?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2019, 12:49:37 AM »
Just had a chance to review Mayhem specs again. NICE that it has the Weaver/Picatinny rail instead of the 11mm dovetail.  Scope ring movement should not be an issue.

Link looks like a good scope which should be able to handle magnum springer recoil.

Hard to diagnose from a distance, but have some questions.

You checked the stock screws. Is barrel pivot screw pretty snug also?
Wide variations in pellet velocity will spread out groups. Do you have any chronograph data?
On most of my springers, a new breach seal sits about 0.010"-0.015" above the mating surface. Does the breach seal look good and does it pass the tissue test?

I'm assuming this is the rifle with the factory new NP2 piston assembly? I've had new piston seals that needed a few dozen shots to wear-in .
There is always a little fresh-rebuild-dieseling also.  I use a thin coat of moly paste lube in the high pressure area, but also know the moly carrier will diesel for the first 3-5 shots. My chronograph data shows that there can be a 50-100 shot gradual change which I think is the new piston seal wearing-in.

(edit) Have experienced velocity variations (flyers) and a change of average velocity (up to 30fps) until seal is bedded and everything stabilizes. Large groups normally tighten up really well after this wear-in stage.







« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 07:23:56 AM by mikeyb »
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Offline UlteriorModem

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Re: I cleaned the barrel then.. what the heck?
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2019, 10:28:49 AM »
You checked the stock screws. Is barrel pivot screw pretty snug also?

Yes the pivot screw is snug, the barrel will stay in place against gravity when opened.

Quote from:
Wide variations in pellet velocity will spread out groups. Do you have any chronograph data?

I took a few readings right after the re-build and they were fairly consistant but haven't measured any recently.

Quote from:
On most of my springers, a new breach seal sits about 0.010"-0.015" above the mating surface. Does the breach seal look good and does it pass the tissue test?

The seal looks to be in good shape and as you describe, I have not tried the 'tissue test'.

Quote from:
I'm assuming this is the rifle with the factory new NP2 piston assembly? I've had new piston seals that needed a few dozen shots to wear-in .

It has had over 100 rounds through it now.
 
Quote from:
There is always a little fresh-rebuild-dieseling also.  I use a thin coat of moly paste lube in the high pressure area, but also know the moly carrier will diesel for the first 3-5 shots. My chronograph data shows that there can be a 50-100 shot gradual change which I think is the new piston seal wearing-in.

I used Krytox and there was no evidence of dieseling, no smoke, no smell, no pop. Again I need to get the chronograph back out now that it has had many rounds through it.

Quote from:
(edit) Have experienced velocity variations (flyers) and a change of average velocity (up to 30fps) until seal is bedded and everything stabilizes. Large groups normally tighten up really well after this wear-in stage.

Like I said a couple of hundred cycles now so...
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 06:22:00 PM by UlteriorModem »

Offline sicumj

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Re: I cleaned the barrel then.. what the heck?
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2019, 10:28:39 PM »
All my spring rifles took at least 500 rounds to settle down. 
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Offline UlteriorModem

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Re: I cleaned the barrel then.. what the heck?
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2019, 12:54:19 PM »
Well the gun seems to have settled down after sitting a day or two. Maybe I was having an off day but yesterday I was hitting a 1" target from around 30 yards consistently. There were a few 'flyers' mostly due to shoulder pressure being too tight.

So yea I guess that's about 50 rounds later and some time it seems to have sorted out.

How do you word it... "Air Guns" or "AirGuns"?