New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions



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Offline Stinger177

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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2019, 07:49:34 PM »
Yes it is. It stretches a bit. Where mine strectched around the front and up to the fingertip notches was a bit too far and it rebounded, but that's because I undercut it. When I do the permanent ones I'll maybe try some better contact glue like 3M Spray 90.

Mike at TKO sells the material precut for Maximus and Discovery rifles. Give him a call and he might sell you some full sheets (roughly 8x10 or so). He told me he can scan and laser cut from a supplied pattern.

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Offline bReTt

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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2019, 09:01:59 PM »
Peter=Nice shaping on the grips!

Dennis=For more grip on the grip, have you thought about stippling it? 

Iím trying to curb my desire to buy one of these pistols.  Reading this thread ISNíT helping.  To help try and curb that desire, built up a P17 grip with some scraps of rubber (old inner tube, rubber bungee, and some other piece of rubber from a bicycle accessory) and wrapping them in place with friction tape.  It pretty ghetto looking but I makes the P17 feel quite a bit more substantial in the hand. 

Now Iím trying to figure out how I can get a globe front and Williams notched rear sight mounted on it with a longer sight radius.  Once I figure that out Iíll add some weight to the muzzle to help with the flip.



« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 09:09:12 PM by bReTt »
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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2019, 09:20:21 PM »
Brett,

The German custom grip maker site had some great looking stippled grips.  I can see how stippling adds friction, especially if your hand is sweaty. 

https://www.formgriffe.de/en/shpSR.php?p1=400&p2=255
https://www.formgriffe.de/en/shpSR.php?p1=400&p2=375




That said, my 46M's grip sticks to my hand rather well, coupled by positive engagement.  So, right now, I can't see the need for stippling or any other friction enhancing treatment.  I may choose to stipple it later...
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 09:23:35 PM by subscriber »
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Offline Stinger177

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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2019, 09:28:54 PM »
Quote
Dennis=For more grip on the grip, have you thought about stippling it? 

I have thought about it but that's as far as it went.

First, I've seen some 46M grips that are stippled and didn't like the appearance.

Second, I don't like doing things like that which are so permanent (just like I will never get a tattoo). I know that goes against carving up a 46M grip to fit my hand, but that's what Baikal intended for us to do. You will never see me grinding up a pristine HW stock because it is "just not right".

Third, I don't trust myself enough to not mess it up, haha.

Now, though, if you were to give me a set of grips as in subs last post, yeah, I'll takem and luv-em!  :D
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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2019, 09:22:22 AM »
I took a bit more off the inside of the palmrest to allow it to go lower and more parallel to the grip body.

I added four layers of office paper to shim the grip, so it does not rock front to rear when I cock the pistol.  I first added two, then shot the 40 shots on target, but it seemed to get loose again, so I added more.  Don't know if the growing spread was due to fatigue, rushing, or the grips coming loose...

The targets were shot offhand at a measured 10 meters, on official air pistol targets.  Left target was one handed, while right was with two.  Both with a six o'clock hold.  This was after changing out the rear sight blade for one with the next larger gap width than the pistol arrived with.  The larger gap helped me see the front sight better, one handed; but allowed a bit too much slop two handed.   

I feel like I could shoot groups half the size shown with this pistol, after getting more familiar, exploring the best technique and some regular practice.  I was still experimenting with my grip.  It seemed that a grip just hard enough to bring the pistol bear resulted in the most predictable hits.  Not aiming too long, nor rushing it; and not snatching the trigger.  The groups were shot as fast as I could cock and load, without any "resting" in-between.

The large windage error is due to me not doing a good job of centering the rear blade.  To remove that, you have to turn the mounting screws clockwise.  Almost got carried away trying to undo the first one anti-clockwise; then thought I better take a closer look to see how the blade is held in place.  This little tidbit of info should be in the user manual, else it would be easy to mar or strip those tiny screws.

The crown is unusually deep, and not as smooth looking closeup, as it appears with the naked eye.   So much for a crown included angle steeper than 90 degrees being bad for accuracy (estimate included angle is 60 degrees) .  Perhaps it would be better with a flat crown when using cheap pellets, but I am not going to find out. :)

The pellets used were 8.2 grain RWS meisterkugeln - image file name has a typo.  The velocity seems to have settled right around 430 FPS.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 09:25:36 AM by subscriber »
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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2019, 11:41:21 AM »
Great pic of the muzzle. I'm glad you showed it because I always thought it was rather sexy looking (from a distance, as you say  ;)).

I think your groups will tighten up significantly in time. The grip hold is more important on a 46M mainly because the trigger is so friggin light! Having the gun nestle just right without movement allows you to concentrate on sighting in and breathing on the trigger. At least that's all I have to do on my trigger as I have it set so light.

BTW - I would never even think of changing that muzzle crown.
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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2019, 12:59:25 PM »
Awesome info!  Well documented and thanks so much for the pictures.

Have you considered doing a bore polish?  JBs Bore Paste or something similar?  Maybe concentrating a few extra strokes on the breech and muzzle end??? 

Just thinking out loud.  That would be one of the first things that I would do if I had one.

Man itís getting more difficult to NOT place an order....
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Offline Stinger177

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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2019, 01:16:35 PM »
Awesome info!  Well documented and thanks so much for the pictures.

Man itís getting more difficult to NOT place an order....

Doitdoitdoitdoitdoit.............just sayin'  ;)
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 10:59:02 PM by Stinger177 »
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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2019, 09:31:41 PM »
My impression on seeing the slightly frosty white muzzle and breech end of the Baikal barrel was that it has a hard chrome plated bore.  Now, the user manual states the date when the pistol was packed away.  Going further, stating that the corrosion protection should be renewed every 24 months while in storage.  This suggests the bore is simply "in the white".

Looking through the bore, it is geometrically even and moderately shiny; but not as shiny as my red Slavia 634's bore was, even before I fire lapped that.

The Baikal's bore stays looking the same, from the first pellet to the 50th pellet.  That includes the muzzle and breech.  So, while they look like they could  use a polish, functionally there seems no need for it.

That said, the idea to fire lap the Baikal has occurred to me.   I have not decided to do it, based on the question; what problem am I solving?  Also, I am not sure this pistol has the power to drive a pellet through the barrel with the extra friction JB compound would generate.

As for polishing the bore by hand with a cleaning rod.  I am not practiced with this, and know how easy it would be to create a cone or ovality or some other unwanted bias in the bore shape.  If the pistol was cheaper and parts were locally available, I might be more cavalier about this.  Carving on the wood grip and potentially changing the precise dimensions of the barrel are not in the same class of risk.

Now, if the muzzle was snagging fibers from a Q-tip (or leading up), I would not hesitate to polish it, because then there would be evidence of a need.  The right way to do this would be to remove the barrel and run it in my lathe at low speed, while gently running a brass screw with lapping compound on it via my Proxon. 

Right now, I am not even sure how to remove the barrel. My impression is that the single screw holding the two shells of the front barrel support to the compression tube are what position the barrel, front to rear.  I could be wrong about it.  The manual has rudimentary instructions to take the pistol apart...

Polishing the crown with the barrel in situ can be done, but the risk of making the cone oval or uneven is too high (IMO), compared to rotating the barrel at low speed in a lathe to even things out.

I recrowned my .25 Marauder barrel in the lathe, with a round headed brass screw driven by my Proxon grinder; using diamond paste in descending grit size, down to 25 micron.  I used the same screw for the fine grit as the starting grit; which was probably a mistake - hence the "rings" left over in the finish:





« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 09:33:59 PM by subscriber »
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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2019, 09:55:19 PM »
Sub - Nice work on that crown.

Just my 2Ę worth, but I would never go messing with my 46M. Baikal is reknowned for their quality barrels so messing with the bore is an absolute no-no for me. I wouldn't even consider taking it apart until something is obviously wrong. I've had mine for about 14 yrs. now and all I have ever done is a simple cleaning with a cloth patch. It shoots perfectly for me. I would be afraid of following the path of a good friend of mine whose mantra seems to be "if it ain't broke, break it"!

The other reason for not messing with it is - would you buy a used one that you knew someone had messed with?

I'm keeping mine as cherry as I can. (Grips can be replaced).
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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2019, 10:45:13 PM »
Baikal is reknowned for their quality barrels so messing with the bore is an absolute no-no for me.

The other reason for not messing with it is - would you buy a used one that you knew someone had messed with?

I'm keeping mine as cherry as I can. (Grips can be replaced).

My attitude towards most airguns over $400 is they should be good from the factory; so don't mess with them.  That appears not to be completely accurate, judging by a number of quality brands that need some improvement to work to full potential.  Even if it is just transfer port deburring on PCPs, or dinged crown repair.  If it were not for the ding on my Marauder barrel, I would have left the crown alone:




I am also leery of devices that have been "improved", and now suddenly appear on the market.  Sometimes (perhaps too often), airguns and other devices have been spoilt, and are now being dumped.  If I could look at, feel and shoot an airgun before buying it, I would be more inclined to say yes to used and improved. 

If a unknown person proclaimed that they hand lapped the barrel of their now for sale 46M, that would put me right off.  Not so, if the person is a known tuner or builder with a solid reputation.  I would ask what was wrong with the barrel to begin with, that made them lap it.

I see clowns on youtube, clamping a thin walled barrel in a vice, and lead lapping it by hand.  They may only be removing 0.00025" from the surface, but they are almost certainly making it oval at the point where it is clamped in the vice.  And probably cone shaped at the breech and the muzzle. 

Factory hand lapped barrels usually have the last inch or two at the muzzle cut off and thrown away, for good reason.  Hand lapping a completed barrel is risky, unless one knows exactly what you are doing.  Here, shinier does not automatically equal better...

I think fire lapping is less risky, because it does what years of shooting will do to the bore, when you are in any place more dusty than a cleanroom.  It just does it faster.

But as you say, if it isn't broken...
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 10:52:33 PM by subscriber »
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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2019, 11:21:31 PM »
When I mention fire lapping, that would be with a limited amount of carfully applied diluted JB compound.  Not the coarse grit compound Tubbs start with (220 grit?):  http://www.davidtubb.com/final-finish-bullet-kits

It amuses me that Tubbs actually disses JB compound use here, for making barrels too smooth.  I believe a barrel intended for copper jacketed ammo can be too smooth, but have no intention of using any lap so much or so often that this becomes a problem.  Especially not in an airgun barrel: 

http://www.davidtubb.com/catalog/view/theme/davidtubb/pdf/product_information/finalfinish_faqs_sheet.pdf
Quote
4. What about other abrasive processes?
For those who use JB Bore Compound, or similar, to break in their barrel, this is also not the best course of action. If you want to clean you barrel with JB prior to the Final Finish process this should be the last time you use JB on your barrel!

There is no question that JB compound will remove fouling from a barrel, but at what expense? Following feedback from literally hundreds of Final Finish results, it has been ascertained that you can get a barrel interior too smooth. This results in increased bullet jacket fouling in the barrel.

The polishing compound in JB is significantly finer than 1000 grit (more like 1200-
1400) while a Final Finish bullet with a #3 grit coating is approximately 60% coarser.
Most handlapped barrel makers lap in their barrels with a #150 grit non-embedding aluminum oxide compound which breaks down into a finer grit with use, ultimately resulting in a grit of approximately #300 to #400 when the barrel lapping process is finished.

Also keep in mind that Final Finish products are working one direction in the barrel so as to help uniform and/or result in a slightly tapered bore the farther down the barrel the bullet travels. When being handlapped by the barrel maker or by using JB Bore Compound by the shooter cleaning his barrel, the lapping action is multi-directional. This cannot be the most advantageous approach (kind of like dragging a knife edge back and forth across a whet stone (most purists sharpen a knife edge going a single direction on that particular side of the blade). Even the burnishing effect is single-directional.

More than one barrel maker has commented on the effects of JB actually causing the barrel internal finish to change to such a degree that one is actually breaking in the barrel (burnishing) again for a few shots after each and every cleaning.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 11:26:52 PM by subscriber »
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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2019, 11:35:00 PM »
I track with what both of what you guys are saying.  $400+ air guns should be good from the factory and most are BUT we are talking mass produced guns not custom or hand built.  I have only ever bought 3 air guns that didnít need some sort of attention for improvement somewhere in it.  Two of those were used rifles and one had already been gone through from the previous owner (HW97K).  Second one was an Anschutz 2002CA....  that goes without saying since it was a top tier competition rifle and third was my current FX Streamline.  It has been an absolute wonder from day one.  I bought it new but damaged from the retailer.  I repaired the cracked stock and it has performed flawlessly. 

Edit - 4 guns.  The FWB300S was a like new safe queen when I bought it from the original owners family.  I currently have a new breech seal, bumper and spring that will be installed soon.  I have not opened this rifle up before so I am curious to see what kind of improvements, if any, need to be done.

On the other hand I have gone through every other air rifle that I have owned and their is always room for improvement.  Itís just the way it is.  From what images I have seen of the 46s, they donít look very refined in their finish.

JBs is very mild and hand lapping it to the point of being damaged would take ALOT of effort intending to do so.  More aggressive compounds I would be very hesitant to use. 

IF I get a 46m, Iíll at least clean and polish the barrel after initial velocity and accuracy testing.  Of course shaping the grip and taking care of any other issues (loose grips?) will be remedied.  Iím already thinking about stippling the grips also and staining them a darker color (if lighter in color).  I may even attempt to make a set out of walnut if it doesnít look too complicated.  Of course, this is ASSUMING that I get one. 

Itís my birthday soon.  I have notified my lovely bride of my desire for the 46 and it has been noted.  Ha ha!  I will try and be patient.....
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 12:18:01 AM by bReTt »
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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2019, 10:13:55 AM »
So, I put the rear sight blade with the narrower notch back in the Baikal (the one it arrived with).  Then set the trigger over and pretravel to my liking.  I left the trigger weight as it came.  Now that I am more used to it being so light, it is helping me rather than hurting me.  I would guess it is set at 500 grams, or just over a pound.

Now, I don't know if it is cheating, but I took the standard 10 meter air pistol target, and replaced the black bull with a light gray lined open square.  Then proceed to shoot 25 pellets each on all three targets shown. 

First, single handed with the 8.2 grain RWS wadcutters.

Then, for grins I shot a few 8.4 and 10.34 grain JSB wadcutters over the chrony.  To my amazement, the 10.34 grainers were still averaging right at 400 FPS.  I confirmed the 8.2 wadcutters were still travelling right around 435 FPS, to determine that the velocity for the heavy JSBs was correct.  The 8.4 grain JSB domes went around 430 FPS.  (all measured with the muzzle 1 foot from the front crony sensor)

This is particularly interesting, considering that both the 7 and 9.3 grain RWS Meisterkugeln only managed 390 FPS out of the Baikal.  The low speed on these 7 grain pellets may indicate some anomaly with them.  These pistol Meisterkugeln did something similar out of my Slavia 634: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=151727.msg1551712#msg1551712

After, seeing decent velocities with the JSB domes, I decided to try shooting them two handed at 10 meters, unrested.  Both of these pellets really want to group at about 7'o-clock, on the 9-ring.  The scatter beyond that was completely my fault.

After shooting over 100 pellets in total, the bore looked just as clean as when I started.  Nothing seems to build up in it.  I don't clean the bore.  The extent of the bore cleaning I did out of the box, was to make a little ball out of tissue paper; saturate that with mineral oil; load it flush with the rear of the barrel, and shoot it through.  I did this thee times; took a look through the barrel; then shot a few pellets through it.  At that point I was convinced that the preservative oil was gone, or very nearly so.  I think I was right, because the bore simply looks the same from then on, no matter how many pellets pass through it.

I do shoot one very oily pellet (including filling the skirt) at the end of each session as a moisture / corrosion barrier in the bore.  It seems to take three shots for the velocity to settle, as that oil gets wiped out by the pellets during the next session (checked it over the chrony).  Point of impact does not seem to shift from doing this, after the velocity is back to normal (by the fourth or fifth pellet).

As an aside; I don't shoot heavily oiled pellets from my springers.  This is the recipe for spectacular dieseling with them.  With springers, I load an oily ball of tissue paper; then load a dry wadcutter behind it.  Shooting them together does not diesel to any noticeable degree.  There is a little wisp of smoke for about two shots on the next session; but that is it.  I do this for cleaning; but mostly after each session has ended.  Never know how long it will be before I shoot that particular airgun again...

« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 10:20:24 AM by subscriber »
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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2019, 10:31:49 AM »
Don't know if anyone is interested in trying my target, but I find it much easier to use than the regular round black bull.  I was going to sight dead on in the middle, but found a 6 o'clock hold works better.

Maybe this is cheating, but I need all the help I can get, considering the open sights and old eyes.  Perhaps I need this softer aiming point because I am probably violating one of the golden rules: 

I shoot with both eyes open, and first focus on the front sight to place it in the rear notch; then focus somewhere between the front sight and the target; or on the target while I squeeze the trigger... 

I used to shoot both eyes open, and focus on the front sight; but if I try that now, I see double and get confused...

If the PDF attaches to this message, then you have the print-file I was using...
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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2019, 11:37:21 AM »
Your pdf works just fine. I'll try to get outside and do some shooting with my 46M, maybe this weekend.

Since I haven't target shot with it in some time, I can't give you an assessment on those groups, but going from my memory, you should be getting tighter groups. I shoot with the Bushnell Trophy red dot as shown in my previous pics, and find that adjusting the dot size to the smallest setting (and still being able to see it depending on lighting contrast), my groups are tighter. I could be wrong though, and my memory is just hubris, haha. I have found that the red dot, combined with the extremely light trigger force, allows me to just "think-shoot" when the dot is on the bull, and it just happens.

I do tend to think that your bore condition is just fine. I wouldn't get too fussy about it. One thing that I do which is similar to your oily tissue trick is to use felt cleaning pellets saturated with a non-diesling oil or solvent, followed by one with oil. Some people eschew those felt pellets, but I find that shooting them into a waste basket or something to catch them (bath towel works well too) allows me to inspect them. You can usually see where the grooves have left deposits of gunk. Shoot them until the felts are clean and you know it's good.
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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2019, 10:08:38 PM »
Dennis, you reminded me that I do have cleaning pellets in .177 somewhere.  I should use them instead of tissue.

I was very much aware of my lack of stability when shooting those groups.  I am at the point where I can tell where the hole will be, because that is where the sights were as the shot broke. 

When I "get it right", the holes were clustering bottom left of the 9 ring, two handed.  I should make an effort to stick the targets more tightly to a fresh cardboard backing, so that the individual holes are clearer.  That would show just how many pellets went through a surprisingly small hole. 

Because two handed shooting places the rear sight closer to my eye, the notch appears wider, and thus less precise than one handed.  Shooting with a dot optic should be easier.

I consider the shooting I have been doing as familiarization, rather than a serious attempt at showing off.  Otherwise I would just show my best five shot group (off a rest), like so many here do.  What I like to call and "equipment check".  Certainly, that is showing off equipment capability, rather than a demonstration of real skill.

I was using an isosceles two handed grip.  The wood shape is not conducive to this, as it forces my right hand to come out of the grip somewhat.  Perhaps I should experiment with a Weaver stance and see if that is more stable.  The problem with the Weaver is that the rear sight would be even closer to my eye, and I am having trouble focusing on the front at that distance as it is.

If one simply wants to wring the best accuracy out of this platform, for shooting mice at 10 yards, then making a custom skeletonized "rifle stock" out of plywood could be interesting.  That would force the need for a dot or scope, as the rear sight would be right close.  On the other hand, I could make a aperture sight that replaces the blade. 

While such adaptation may be fun, it would be opposite to the purpose built mission the 46M was made for:
 10 meter pistol competition. 

Then again, any mods that are fully and easily reversible would not seem like a terrible corruption.  Like the one shown below, from:  https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=314022&page=3

Can't figure out if it was custom modified (my assumption), or a standard product; that I can't find anywhere else...


« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 10:13:45 PM by subscriber »
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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2019, 10:50:18 PM »
I've seen that stock. I just found it again in a Google image search. Clicking it brings up a thread from another forum from eight years ago. Clicking a link in that post sends you to a spurious link - don't go there!! - but in that link is the name davegcustomstocks.com. Searching that link brings up http://davegstocks.blogspot.com/. Clicking that link (from now ten years ago) brings up a website showing similar stocks for various guns and at the top it shows the former link. Again, don't go there, it's spurious. Maybe with the DaveG stock info you can find it. For me, I have my MP532  :D. I can pick off clover flowers at 10m easy with about one out of ten missed. That's using the rear diopter and front globe sights with my left elbow rested on my knee.

No one is judging you on your shooting, least of all me, and after I shoot this weekend it may prove that your groups outshine mine!! I'm only suggesting that something else is going on for you to not have tighter groups, and I doubt that the bore condition is the issue.

I think you'll find that those felt pellets work much better for cleaning

With my 46M I use the Weaver stance like this but with my left foot forward of my right (not completely in front of the right but a bit to the left). I have no interference issues and my right hand stays "in the pocket".





This is an isosceles stance.




The Bushnell red dot was a fairly common thing to do when the 46M's were available. I got mine as a "combo" purchase from AoA about 13 years ago or so.


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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2019, 01:19:20 AM »
I'm only suggesting that something else is going on for you to not have tighter groups

Well, I think one factor is that when I am shooting at a scoring target, I may be "trying too hard":

The 5 shot group below was placed on the same target as in my earlier post.  I did not care about grouping at all (explained below); but to my surprise, the first and second shots clipped.  The other three landed close enough to give me a 1" group:

I just applied fresh oil to the compression cylinder; and directly into the valve from the TP.  The excess was blowing out the muzzle as a mist on dry firing.  Then I shot a few 7 grain Meisterkugeln to squeegee out the bore - these are the pellets I have no confidence in, due to their low velocity. 

The first of three pellets was slow to reach 10 meters, based on sound, and it hit very low on the trap.  The next one sounded better.  The third one sounded normal.  Then I thought, what the heck, let me go through the motions of aiming a few shots; but away from the other holes, so between "bulls".   Also, "I am not going to try very hard, because there must still be excess oil in the bore, and these pellets are suspect"...

The answer seems to be follow basic technique without trying very hard; don't aim too long or insist on perfection.  Just squeeze the trigger, and see where the holes appear relative to the sights, NOT relative to any scoring rings...

« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 01:25:10 AM by subscriber »
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Re: New Baikal MP-46M air pistol impressions
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2019, 01:37:12 AM »
"trying to hard" and "don't aim too long or insist on perfection" hits it on the head.

The third paragraph of this article states it perfectly. Read the entire article however as there is much more to it.

http://www.usashooting.org/library/Instructional/Rifle/rifle_march_april_2009.pdf
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How do you word it... "Air Guns" or "AirGuns"?
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