Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation



Author Topic: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation  (Read 2421 times - 2 votes) 
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Offline nced

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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2018, 09:56:10 AM »
Ed, i totally respect you have had no issues, seriously you are running 800psi lower pressure than a 22mm kit...it detonates, trust me i tested it ;)

Can we move on from it now?
I'll simply agree to disagree since I don't think that KRYTOX itself is the issue.

Question...........how do your piston seals hold up under heat and pressure exceeding that of my .177 HW95 which did erode piston seal faces.

Offline Brazos

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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2018, 12:43:04 PM »
This question is for Nightcrusher.  I ordered the DYI kit today and the proper spring from PA.  In your write up you said not to use the spring at full length and you may have to cut off a coil or two.  In your case you needed to cut off one coil.  How did you know?  Is there an overall spring length I should be looking for?  Maybe there are instructions with the kit from Tony and I am getting ahead of myself.  You did a great write up as always with great pictures (so glad you got into air guns!).  This was the one question I had when I read it.  Thought maybe you or Tony could expand on this a little more.
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Online Nitrocrushr

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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2018, 02:32:41 PM »
This question is for Nightcrusher.  I ordered the DYI kit today and the proper spring from PA.  In your write up you said not to use the spring at full length and you may have to cut off a coil or two.  In your case you needed to cut off one coil.  How did you know?  Is there an overall spring length I should be looking for?  Maybe there are instructions with the kit from Tony and I am getting ahead of myself.  You did a great write up as always with great pictures (so glad you got into air guns!).  This was the one question I had when I read it.  Thought maybe you or Tony could expand on this a little more.

I was simply going on Tony's recommendation for a 1 coil removal as a starting point.  While the kit is designed to use the AA 12 fpe spring, it is not designed to use it at full length.  Using it at full length is too much and can result in a cracked spring guide.  Unlike standard high volume factory set-ups, where you can see substantial velocity drops as coils are removed, the 22mm kit...not so much.  What you will see/feel is a better feel on the shot.  I am still experimenting to understand this feel that Tony has discussed with me.  From what Tony has told me, going from 1 coil removed to 2 coils removed may barely effect velocity/fpe, but could soften the feel of the shot even more.  I plan on dropping another coil so that I can see this for myself and get a feel for what it does 8)


Glad to hear you have a kit on the way, keep us posted ;)

Steve
  • Lancaster, Pennsylvania
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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2018, 02:45:52 PM »
Ok, I wanted to get things back on track with some follow-up on my original post above.

I made a little more progress today on the recoil sled.  Here are a few pictures - still in progress.  As I mentioned before, it is not an accelerometer and will not be able to measure actual recoil.  But if it works as I am hoping, it will be able to show the movement in the recoil, which I will be able to capture in a physical measurement.  I may even be able to capture the difference in movement of various set-ups in video clips

The sled is very lightweight and has a fixed stop starting point.  It will be set up to keep the rifle level and in a fixed position so that all recoil goes into sled movement rather than the rifle slipping backwards.  It will have a lightweight return spring, which will bring it back to the home position after the shot.  Sled movement is extremely smooth with no slop or play.  The rail on each side of the sled rides on over 30 ball bearings. At this point my plan is to use a small air bladder to activate the trigger so that I will not touch the rifle in any way on the shot.

Still a work in progress ;)









« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 03:19:08 PM by Nitrocrushr »
  • Lancaster, Pennsylvania
Air Arms TX200 .177 Rifle - 22mm skirtless dual seal conversion from Tony Leach

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Offline Jason_Garvin

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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2018, 03:15:21 PM »
Now that is interesting, you could also machine a system close to a FWB300 sled?  Look forward to seeing it in action, or should I say, goal no action?  Only real question comes to mind now seriously, on the ball bearings, do you intend to lube with Krytox, moly, or STP break in oil, we don't want to see it smoking.........lol

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Offline Yogi

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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2018, 04:16:57 PM »
Now that is interesting, you could also machine a system close to a FWB300 sled?  Look forward to seeing it in action, or should I say, goal no action?  Only real question comes to mind now seriously, on the ball bearings, do you intend to lube with Krytox, moly, or STP break in oil, we don't want to see it smoking.........lol

Jason G

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Good one!

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Offline VillageSniper

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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2018, 09:42:30 PM »
  Steve, a great project and beautiful rifle.  The kit looks very nice as well, a dream for sure.    In my prior post I was contemplating an alternate spring for generating  power in the 10-11 Ft lb range, (I stated 10+) not for pushing the kit beyond 12 Ft lb. Nor the pursuit for more power and speed. (I enjoy my rifles all below 11.25).  As there are many springs available now, with some being on hand and others ordered custom and complete from a vendor,  and not require any cutting from the start.  Sorry for any confusion, Just my curious mind at work.   I like the idea of the STP oil, a bottle would last a lifetime.

Best regards,

Vs
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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2018, 02:03:11 AM »
  Steve, a great project and beautiful rifle.  The kit looks very nice as well, a dream for sure.    In my prior post I was contemplating an alternate spring for generating  power in the 10-11 Ft lb range, (I stated 10+) not for pushing the kit beyond 12 Ft lb. Nor the pursuit for more power and speed. (I enjoy my rifles all below 11.25).  As there are many springs available now, with some being on hand and others ordered custom and complete from a vendor,  and not require any cutting from the start.  Sorry for any confusion, Just my curious mind at work.   I like the idea of the STP oil, a bottle would last a lifetime.

Best regards,

Vs

Thanks VS ;)  I was following you on the springs.  I just donít have any suggestions for what else to try.  As the kit arrives it is really designed around the AA 12fpe spring, and the tophat is a nice snug fit with the ID on that spring.  Aside from the coil cut down, its a drop in and go set-up ;D

Have you ever removed a coil or 2 from a spring and redressed the end?

Steve
  • Lancaster, Pennsylvania
Air Arms TX200 .177 Rifle - 22mm skirtless dual seal conversion from Tony Leach

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Offline VillageSniper

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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2018, 10:59:49 AM »
  Yes I have.  I had initially presumed that the 12 Ft lb spring was just a shorter version of the standard FAC spring wire. This prompted my curiosity about using a finer spring wire, not knowing that it already used one, and since vendors sell springs of many sizes and some can be custom ordered for coil count.  Not that there is anything wrong with the spring suggested for use in the kit, just a discussion point.  As for general plinking and pest control, most people would be surprised by the penetration ability of  a 10 Ft lb rifle.

Vs
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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2018, 02:35:00 PM »
As for general plinking and pest control, most people would be surprised by the penetration ability of  a 10 Ft lb rifle.
Vs

Absolutely ;)  The sub 12 rifles are no slouch for hunting, shot placement is everything 8)

Steve
  • Lancaster, Pennsylvania
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Offline TonyL

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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2018, 07:10:43 PM »
  Yes I have.  I had initially presumed that the 12 Ft lb spring was just a shorter version of the standard FAC spring wire. This prompted my curiosity about using a finer spring wire, not knowing that it already used one, and since vendors sell springs of many sizes and some can be custom ordered for coil count.  Not that there is anything wrong with the spring suggested for use in the kit, just a discussion point.  As for general plinking and pest control, most people would be surprised by the penetration ability of  a 10 Ft lb rifle.

Vs

The FAC spring is more like the old Mk2 spring, the sub12 TX355 spring is thinner wire, wider wound to be much softer. The reason i went with this spring is its ID mainly, it allows for a 14.9mm OD guide and i have the ID reamed to 10mm. So you get max wall thickness to ensure max strength. I have used the small springs from Vortek for 20mm builds etc as they are sub20mm diameter, however i had to move to steel guides and with the smaller ID even the thinner wire springs have high spring rates. Springs get complicated ;) its not all just in the wire thickness.

Top give you an idea how soft the TX355 spring is when its shortened and dressed up 1.5 coils shorter, i dropped one into a stock TX set up for the UK and the gun delivered in the 7fpe range, it had a hard time moving that 250g piston.
Also another reason for the TX355 spring is for .177 it allows a decent amount of preload by default even when shortened, in .22 it can get a bit slim at 11fpe, i was seeing just over 8mm preload on 1 build delivering 11.3fpe, the spring was 2.5 coils shorter and i bet would deliver under 6fpe in a stock .177 set up. Just shows you how efficient 22mm can be.
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Offline VillageSniper

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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2018, 07:52:36 PM »
Tony, thanks for sharing.  Your kit looks awesome and is right up my alley.

Vs
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Offline Yogi

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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2018, 08:17:09 PM »
  Yes I have.  I had initially presumed that the 12 Ft lb spring was just a shorter version of the standard FAC spring wire. This prompted my curiosity about using a finer spring wire, not knowing that it already used one, and since vendors sell springs of many sizes and some can be custom ordered for coil count.  Not that there is anything wrong with the spring suggested for use in the kit, just a discussion point.  As for general plinking and pest control, most people would be surprised by the penetration ability of  a 10 Ft lb rifle.

Vs

The FAC spring is more like the old Mk2 spring, the sub12 TX355 spring is thinner wire, wider wound to be much softer. The reason i went with this spring is its ID mainly, it allows for a 14.9mm OD guide and i have the ID reamed to 10mm. So you get max wall thickness to ensure max strength. I have used the small springs from Vortek for 20mm builds etc as they are sub20mm diameter, however i had to move to steel guides and with the smaller ID even the thinner wire springs have high spring rates. Springs get complicated ;) its not all just in the wire thickness.

Top give you an idea how soft the TX355 spring is when its shortened and dressed up 1.5 coils shorter, i dropped one into a stock TX set up for the UK and the gun delivered in the 7fpe range, it had a hard time moving that 250g piston.
Also another reason for the TX355 spring is for .177 it allows a decent amount of preload by default even when shortened, in .22 it can get a bit slim at 11fpe, i was seeing just over 8mm preload on 1 build delivering 11.3fpe, the spring was 2.5 coils shorter and i bet would deliver under 6fpe in a stock .177 set up. Just shows you how efficient 22mm can be.

Interesting.

I thought, all things being equal .22 was 10-20% more efficient.  Your talking about a MUCH bigger difference.  Is this because the TP is "optimized" for .22?

Thanks in advance,

Yogi
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Offline TonyL

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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2018, 05:25:22 PM »
Yogi

Some 22mm conversions and many 21mm conversions 177 are more efficient than .22, small pistons can and often do rewrite the rules. If all the stars are aligned on the gun, IE the lead in is perfect, the breech seals perfect, the spring is exactly the right length and the pellets are a perfect fit with the skirts sealing the lead in just perfect the efficiency can be huge, 177 often matching .22 or surpassing it, i have set up .177 riles here and the spring length and additional preload is exactly the same as i set for .22, imagine being able to take the power plant from a .177 TX set to 11.3fpe and dropping it into a .22 and it gives exactly the same power within 0.1fpe...i have seen this ;)

A stock TX UK spec is around 44% efficient 177, a 22mm TX at the same power 177 is well over 50%, probably over 55% efficient, i have seen a 77k at 62% and touched near 70% with a 20mm diana 52.... the rules are very different with the smaller pistons
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Offline YEMX

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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2018, 07:41:22 PM »
I apologize if thread hacking...

So which caliber is preferred with this conversion kit- .177 or .22?  For me, I'll be using the rifle (not carbine) for both plinking and pesting- mostly HOSP, maybe Rabbits and of course, the dreaded English Starling...  I WILL be acquiring a 12 fpe spring...
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Offline TonyL

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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2019, 01:47:45 PM »
I apologize if thread hacking...

So which caliber is preferred with this conversion kit- .177 or .22?  For me, I'll be using the rifle (not carbine) for both plinking and pesting- mostly HOSP, maybe Rabbits and of course, the dreaded English Starling...  I WILL be acquiring a 12 fpe spring...
caliber does not matter, works awesome in both
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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #56 on: January 01, 2019, 03:10:46 PM »
The recoil sled is complete.  Initial testing shows that this sled is sensitive enough to show both stages of recoil.  I can run this sled fully floating, or with a light return spring.  Trigger is set off remotely with an air bladder ;)




Look for test results and video clips this coming weekend.




Steve
  • Lancaster, Pennsylvania
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Offline prosportfan

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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2019, 03:49:27 PM »
The recoil sled is complete.  Initial testing shows that this sled is sensitive enough to show both stages of recoil.  I can run this sled fully floating, or with a light return spring.  Trigger is set off remotely with an air bladder ;)




Look for test results and video clips this coming weekend.




Steve

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Offline Yogi

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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #58 on: January 01, 2019, 08:46:17 PM »
Do your kitchen drawers slide as easily? :D

What drawer slides are you using?

Happy NY!

-Y
  • San Francisco, CA
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Re: Tony Leach 22mm Skirtless Conversion Kit Installation
« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2019, 08:50:59 PM »
Do your kitchen drawers slide as easily? :D

What drawer slides are you using?

Happy NY!

-Y

Happy New Year Yogi!!!

Richelieu 22Ē with ball bearings ;D 100 pound capacity.  I flushed the grease out of them and lubed with weaponshield.


I wish I had these in my kitchen drawers....lol

Steve
« Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 08:53:32 PM by Nitrocrushr »
  • Lancaster, Pennsylvania
Air Arms TX200 .177 Rifle - 22mm skirtless dual seal conversion from Tony Leach

HW98 .177 - Vortek 12fpe


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