Questions for you Tuners . . .



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Offline chico

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Questions for you Tuners . . .
« on: December 05, 2018, 02:07:48 PM »
I am looking to get started in air rifle shooting and have been reading and learning about tuning. initially, i want to focus on .177 cal, 10M shooting, then branch out a little further to maybe 50 or 100 yards. at longer distances, i would prefer to stay at .177 cal, but am not opposed to a larger caliber, as the larger size and power will be necessary to maintain accuracy. but, i have some questions:

1) can a daisy M887 or daisy M853 sporter rifle be tuned and/or modified to shoot as well as a precision air rifle at 10M ?

2) at what maximum distance i can expect to hold MOA from a properly tuned/modified daisy mentioned above ?

3) are there other air rifles that would be better choices for upgrading/tuning/modifying ?

4) i guess i am looking to get the best accuracy i can without stepping into the "precision" level.

5) your suggestions ??
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Online Hoosier Daddy

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Re: Questions for you Tuners . . .
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2018, 02:29:24 PM »
Not being a "Daisy" guy... is there a reason to stay with a SSP?
 Going with what I do know, have you looked at the Beeman AR2078-B / AR2079-B?
The "B" is their most accurate version and internally it is basically a QB-78. There are tons of tuning options on a QB-78.

That said, I don't know if you will ever be able to get a $200 target gun to be up to a precision air rifle performance. Close, but not quite.
Pistols
Crosman: PC77, 1740, 1701P
Benjiman H9A

Rifles
Air Arms: S400-SL Carbine FAC
Beeman: RS2 Silver Kodiak,
Benjamin: 312, 342, 392P, 392PA, Maximus
Crosman: Genesis NP .22, Quest 1000X, Raven, 2nd & 3rd var 160's
Feinwerkbau: FWB 300S
Gamo: Recon
SAG: AR2078-B, QB58
Sheridan: C Blue Streak, C9 Blue Streak, Model F Co2
Weihrauch: HW98
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Offline chico

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Re: Questions for you Tuners . . .
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2018, 03:06:48 PM »
Not being a "Daisy" guy... is there a reason to stay with a SSP?
 Going with what I do know, have you looked at the Beeman AR2078-B / AR2079-B?
The "B" is their most accurate version and internally it is basically a QB-78. There are tons of tuning options on a QB-78.

That said, I don't know if you will ever be able to get a $200 target gun to be up to a precision air rifle performance. Close, but not quite.

thanks, Hoosier Daddy, i'm still learning . . . . there are so many manufacturers/models it can be overwhelming.

i mentioned Daisy because it is the easiest for me to acquire right now. i have no loyalty to any manufacturer and am open to any and all suggestions and recommendations.

i will look into the Beeman when i get home from work tonight.

thank you!
  • Port Clinton, Ohio

Offline nced

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Re: Questions for you Tuners . . .
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2018, 04:29:13 PM »
I am looking to get started in air rifle shooting and have been reading and learning about tuning. initially, i want to focus on .177 cal, 10M shooting, then branch out a little further to maybe 50 or 100 yards. at longer distances, i would prefer to stay at .177 cal, but am not opposed to a larger caliber, as the larger size and power will be necessary to maintain accuracy. but, i have some questions:

1) can a daisy M887 or daisy M853 sporter rifle be tuned and/or modified to shoot as well as a precision air rifle at 10M ?

2) at what maximum distance i can expect to hold MOA from a properly tuned/modified daisy mentioned above ?

3) are there other air rifles that would be better choices for upgrading/tuning/modifying ?

4) i guess i am looking to get the best accuracy i can without stepping into the "precision" level.

5) your suggestions ??

A few comments:
"then branch out a little further to maybe 50 or 100 yards. at longer distances"
You'll need a really "precision level" gun and pellet properly tuned to group well at 100 yards. I personally keep my .177 cal air gunning ranges to 50 yards and prefer keeping the distances to 30 yards or less, however I have shot a few pretty good 50 yard groups with my home tuned .177 HW springers......


i would prefer to stay at .177 cal, but am not opposed to a larger caliber,
If your airgun has the power then the larger pellets can have an advantage, however for long range shooting I personally believe the .20,.22 etc are best with PCPs. I've used .177, .20, & .22 barrels on my Beeman R9 (rebadged HW95 with different "furniture") and found that past my 30 yard zero distance the trajectory of the larger cals was too loopy to guess the proper holdover.

1) can a daisy M887 or daisy M853 sporter rifle be tuned and/or modified to shoot as well as a precision air rifle at 10M ?
2) at what maximum distance i can expect to hold MOA from a properly tuned/modified daisy mentioned above ?"

I don't have a clue because I've never owned (or shot) the guns you've mentioned.

3) are there other air rifles that would be better choices for upgrading/tuning/modifying ?
A factory stock .177 HW95 springer is a good choice if you like break barrels or a HW97 if you prefer a fixed barrel springer if you don't mind the extra weight .

This might be disappointing but I didn't notice that my .177 Beeman R9s and .177 HW95 was much more accurate after a tune than when in "factory twang mode" because straight from the box I haven'y had a HW springer that couldn't shoot 1/2" ctc or smaller. An initial bore cleaning, finding the most accurate pellet (indeed "gun dependent") and after shooting a couple dozen pellets to 'season the bore".

My home tuning jobs do make my R9s and HW95 more pleasurable to shoot since there isn't any twang or felt vibration, there is a more consistent poi from day to day. I do reduce the factory muzzle velocity about 30fps compared to the factory setup. My last HW springer was a .177 HW95 bought a couple years ago and in "factory twang mode" it shot 7.9 grain boxed Crosman Premier lights at 880 fps, currently the gun is shooting CPLs at 850fps.

Another benefit of my home tuning is that I can strip out the diesel prone petroleum based factory lubes and replace them with non-dieseling and longer lasting Dupont Krytox GPL205 "space station lube".

"4) i guess i am looking to get the best accuracy i can without stepping into the "precision" level."
LOL....what do you consider "precision level"?

Online Hoosier Daddy

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Re: Questions for you Tuners . . .
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2018, 06:37:37 PM »

"4) i guess i am looking to get the best accuracy i can without stepping into the "precision" level."
LOL....what do you consider "precision level"?
And what is your budget?
 There are old Tier 2 10m guns that are more than capable at closer ranges but the power trade off to reach past 50 yards is the kicker.
I have learned accuracy at 10m is usually low power guns and does not equal accuracy at 50+ and vice versa.
 My FWB300S was an Olympic gun in the '80s at 10m... but past 35m it is another story all together.
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Crosman: PC77, 1740, 1701P
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Air Arms: S400-SL Carbine FAC
Beeman: RS2 Silver Kodiak,
Benjamin: 312, 342, 392P, 392PA, Maximus
Crosman: Genesis NP .22, Quest 1000X, Raven, 2nd & 3rd var 160's
Feinwerkbau: FWB 300S
Gamo: Recon
SAG: AR2078-B, QB58
Sheridan: C Blue Streak, C9 Blue Streak, Model F Co2
Weihrauch: HW98
Xisico: XS60C .22, Sentry 702-3 .22

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Offline avolluz

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Re: Questions for you Tuners . . .
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2018, 12:53:34 PM »
I havenít gotten around to tuning this quite yet, but I have gotten it to a tuneable state. Now that I have the gun on a HPA regulated source, I can start messing with different pressures. Being able to keep a higher velocity with heavier pellets and maintain accuracy is my goal. I experimented with a 1200psi regulator, but my velocity dropped from 650fps with a 7.4 gr Crosman pointed to 530fps. This indicates I need a heavier striker spring, which I havenít taken the time to remove and check size. Itís a start though. Iíd like to get at least 12fpe while maintaining good accuracy. Iíll keep you posted. In this state, itís not much of a 10m gun anymore, but getting 600 shots per fill makes it a really fun plinker.
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Offline chico

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Re: Questions for you Tuners . . .
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2018, 05:41:56 PM »
great looking gun, adam - bet it's really fun to shoot !
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Offline Back_Roads

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Re: Questions for you Tuners . . .
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2018, 08:24:01 PM »
 I see there is a civilian marksmanship program in your area. They would be able to help you find a great 10 m rifle , and get you started out on a budget I am sure :)
 Here is a link to  a map.
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GIWA_enUS663US664&q=air+rifles+Port+Clinton,+Ohio&npsic=0&rflfq=1&rlha=0&rllag=41529743,-82983996,3693&tbm=lcl&ved=2ahUKEwilh-q--o7fAhWiyoMKHRxpBkQQtgN6BAgAEAU&tbs=lrf:!2m1!1e2!2m1!1e3!3sIAE,lf:1,lf_ui:10&rldoc=1#rlfi=hd:;si:;mv:!1m2!1d41.5475947!2d-82.9403557!2m2!1d41.5118923!2d-83.0276379
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Offline mobilemail

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Re: Questions for you Tuners . . .
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2018, 10:21:53 AM »
A lot of your questions depend on your level of interest and your level of investment.   Do you plan to shoot in a local 10M competition?  If so, are you shooting sporter class or the full-dress precision class? 

If you're brand new and shooting informally, or shooting against guys with sporter class rifles, the 853 is probably the most affordable way to get going. I've seen some older guys shoot one ragged hole at 10M with these guns using a scope but no precision shooting paraphernalia.  If you get serious about precision, its downside will be weight and adjustability.  At $!00-150 to buy a good used one, it's a great starting point.

If you reach the point where feel you are capable of more than this rifle is doing for you, you could look at a better sporter like the Air Arms T200 or Crosman Challenger. Either of these will set you back over $500, plus the equipment to put air in them.   At this price point you can also start to get into a vintage FWB300S or similar rifle. While these rifles are still insanely accurate and a joy to shoot, they will be outclassed in a modern full precision competition. You might also be able to find a precision CO2 rifle that you could still be quite competitive with indoors, without the added expense of the supporting PCP gear.

If that's not enough and you want to get into a full precision rifle, you can start by looking at some of the semi-vintage SSP rifles like the FWB603.  This will meet the needs of all but the most accomplished precision shooter. While you may sink $1K into the rifle, you won't need any supporting PCP gear. 

If you are competitive at this level, and/or you just have a compelling need to spend your kid's college fund, then you can start looking at the modern competitive 10M precision PCP rifles.

For all of these steps, your local shooters are absolutely the best source of information, and often even the used guns. 

Let us know which way you decide to go!
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Online Hoosier Daddy

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Re: Questions for you Tuners . . .
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2018, 10:55:47 AM »
I didn't realize you were in Port Clinton, definately head over to the CMP shop and check out what they have to offer and get their advice.
Pistols
Crosman: PC77, 1740, 1701P
Benjiman H9A

Rifles
Air Arms: S400-SL Carbine FAC
Beeman: RS2 Silver Kodiak,
Benjamin: 312, 342, 392P, 392PA, Maximus
Crosman: Genesis NP .22, Quest 1000X, Raven, 2nd & 3rd var 160's
Feinwerkbau: FWB 300S
Gamo: Recon
SAG: AR2078-B, QB58
Sheridan: C Blue Streak, C9 Blue Streak, Model F Co2
Weihrauch: HW98
Xisico: XS60C .22, Sentry 702-3 .22

Proud Member of F.U.G.L.Y.

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