Lead free ignorance...



Author Topic: Lead free ignorance...  (Read 278 times))

Online Skeeeets

  • Ignorant Learner
  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 98
  • Possums awaiting! I'm ready!
  • Real Name: Skeeter
Lead free ignorance...
« on: October 10, 2018, 01:40:09 AM »
Getting back into airguns within the last 2 years, and have pretty much dedicated towards lead free pellets... small yard/big garden. Lead free pellets are expensive!! At 4 cents a pellet for the cheapest and are pretty good for my pace, skenco blue arrow 6.4 grain. But lead free jumps quick in price up to 20 cents a pellet!!!!!!!



I don't know much about casting pellets physically, but was extremely curious if someone with knowledge could help me....


Literally using a current day US penny, 97.5% Zinc, 2.5% Copper, would it be able to be melted and casted into a few pellets? Im guessing maybe 3-4 pellets could come from one penny at 12-16 grain a piece.



This has ben bugging me for quite awhile :(
  • USA, Illinois, Chicago
So far so good with my micro arsenal, dont plan on any new airguns anytime soon.

Crosman Fire NP .177

Crosman 1377 .177 out the box

Crosman 2240 customized to .177 and co2/hipac interchangeable

Umarex Trevox .177 that is no bueno



Thanks for all help yal, its appreciated, I love you

Offline Wayne52

  • Moderator
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 12588
  • Real Name: Wayne
Re: Lead free ignorance...
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2018, 02:00:22 AM »
I've never cast any lead free pellets but the lead free pewter might be just the ticket, I really don't know for sure ???
  • Kalamazoo Mi
HHD Sup Com Cam Ranh Bay Vietnam 71-72

Online Skeeeets

  • Ignorant Learner
  • Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 98
  • Possums awaiting! I'm ready!
  • Real Name: Skeeter
Re: Lead free ignorance...
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2018, 02:24:06 AM »
Lead free is expensive, and for the most part VERY light weight. Heavier weight = more $.


Again, im ignorant towards the process of making pellets. I just had that thought and its ben irritating me. IS IT POSSIBLE....




I understand certain metals can affect the rifling of barrels. From my seat of position, i can get a new barrel any time for the arms i own if anything does cause noticable damage/issues.
  • USA, Illinois, Chicago
So far so good with my micro arsenal, dont plan on any new airguns anytime soon.

Crosman Fire NP .177

Crosman 1377 .177 out the box

Crosman 2240 customized to .177 and co2/hipac interchangeable

Umarex Trevox .177 that is no bueno



Thanks for all help yal, its appreciated, I love you

Online Airnut

  • Plinker
  • **
  • Posts: 234
  • yes
  • Real Name: Frank
Re: Lead free ignorance...
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2018, 05:06:59 AM »
It may work except there are laws that forbid melting or defacing US currency.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 05:09:36 AM by Airnut »
  • USA. Yorktown va.

Offline BSJ

  • Plinker
  • **
  • Posts: 262
  • yes
  • Real Name: Brian
Re: Lead free ignorance...
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2018, 06:56:03 AM »
I don't think Zinc would fill a small pellet sized mold well.

Pewter might work. I melted a lot of pewter down and cast it into .458 bullets. Simply to have a convenient and consist small "ingots" for alloying in lead. They did come out beautifully though...

Ps. Elemental lead stays where it lands. It doesn't leach into the environment. The fear mongering of lead on/in the ground is overblown. Lead oxide is indeed a problem, but small lumps of lead have little surface area and therefore produce tiny amounts of lead oxide as they age.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 02:16:35 PM by BSJ »
  • VT (The Islands), USA

Offline jmars

  • Marksman
  • ***
  • Posts: 339
  • Real Name: Jeff M.
Re: Lead free ignorance...
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2018, 10:00:44 AM »
I don't think Zinc would fill a small pellet sized mold well.

Pewter might work. I melted a lot of pewter down and cast it into .458 bullets. Simply to have a convenient and consist small "ingot" for alloying in lead. They did come out beautifully though...

Ps. Elemental lead stays where it lands. It doesn't leach into the environment. The fear mongering of lead on/in the ground is overblown. Lead oxide is indeed a problem, but small lumps of lead have little surface area and therefore produce tiny amounts of lead oxide as they age.

I think Brian is correct, and lead in your yard is not a problem.

There are many abandoned trap and skeet shooting ranges scattered across the country that would literally have tons of lead shotgun pellets scattered across large areas of land.

These abandoned shooting ranges are often developed into housing areas or used as farm ground. They aren't poisoned "superfund" wastelands.

Contact the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), they WILL have the info that you are looking for.

Don't waste your time, energy and money pursuing "work arounds"
that may be entirely unnecessary. Get the facts first!

PS, one must learn to crawl before they can walk.....If you wish to cast projectiles in the future you need to start with and master the basics; not venture into unknown territory attempting to cast stuff from strange alloys using equipment designed for lead.

The piles of perfectly cast pellets that are pictured in this forum are the product of SKILLED people with much experience.
Small projectiles with skirts and hollow bases are TOUGH
to cast.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 11:00:56 AM by jmars »
  • midwest usa

Offline bavaria55n

  • Sharp Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 755
  • yes
  • Real Name: Gary
Re: Lead free ignorance...
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2018, 10:03:03 AM »
Does zinc and pewter shrink more than lead when it cools?
Would resulting size be problem using a regular mold made for use with lead?
Gary
  • Illinois

Offline DanD

  • Did someone say mid-sized springers?
  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1676
  • A solid maybe
  • Real Name: Dan
Re: Lead free ignorance...
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2018, 01:13:05 PM »
An H&N rep told me in an email that their Green pellets are 100% tin.
  • Binghamton, NY

Offline BSJ

  • Plinker
  • **
  • Posts: 262
  • yes
  • Real Name: Brian
Re: Lead free ignorance...
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2018, 01:34:13 PM »
That's good to know. I scrounged all that pewter for its Tin content...
  • VT (The Islands), USA

Offline Wayne52

  • Moderator
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 12588
  • Real Name: Wayne
Re: Lead free ignorance...
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2018, 02:13:10 PM »
Pure tin is super anti corrosive too, I've dug up tin stuff that was really old and probably as shiny as the day it was lost!  I've got a Mason's token that is about 120 years old that I dug up out of an old dump site that's simply brilliant and it was mixed in with ash, rust and you name it.
  • Kalamazoo Mi
HHD Sup Com Cam Ranh Bay Vietnam 71-72

Online rsterne

  • Member 2000+fps Club
  • Bob and Lloyd
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 19940
  • GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
    • Mozey-On-Inn
  • Real Name: Bob
Re: Lead free ignorance...
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2018, 03:47:04 PM »
I have suggested many times here on the Forum that if guys want to experiment with lightweight bullets that they cast with pure tin instead of lead.... Tin has a specific gravity of 7.3 compared to 11.3 for lead, so the bullets come out at 65% of the weight (roughly 1/3 lighter). The BHN of pure lead is about 5, and pure tin about 7.... so it is slightly softer than the commonly used 40:1 lead/tin alloy, which is BHN 8.... The shrinkage of tin is very close to that of lead, and it melts at a much lower temperature than lead (200*F lower)....

What's not to like?.... It's quite a bit more expensive than lead.... Rotometals current price on lead nuggets is $2.80/lb (in 5 lb. lots).... while pure tin (cut wire) is $19.49/lb.... although if you buy a 30 lb. box it's "only" $499 (16.67/lb). Don't forget, it will cast 55% more bullets per lb. so you would have to buy 47 lbs. of lead to cast the same number of bullets, and that would cost you $132.... That means that on a per bullet basis, pure tin is 3.8 times the price....

If you are casting a 50 gr. bullet, but in tin, it would weigh 32.5 gr.... and you would get 215 bullets per lb. of tin.... That works out to less than 8 cents each in tin, compared to 2 cents each for the (50 gr.) bullet in lead.... If you cast the new 34 gr. NOE Magnum Hunter .25 cal in tin it would weigh 22 gr. and cost about 5 cents each.... For comparison, the 34 gr. JSB King Heavies are 7 cents each (150 count tin), and the 25 gr Kings are 5.4 cents each (350 count tin).

Bob
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 03:52:16 PM by rsterne »
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), .22 QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Bench PCP, 6mm Regulated PCP and .257 Unregulated, Two BRods.

Offline Wayne52

  • Moderator
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 12588
  • Real Name: Wayne
Re: Lead free ignorance...
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2018, 04:32:52 PM »
I might even try casting some up with tin in the 22 Magnum Hunter mold you could use them in less powerful guns, I'd like to try something like that in my PP700SA ???
  • Kalamazoo Mi
HHD Sup Com Cam Ranh Bay Vietnam 71-72

Offline Wayne52

  • Moderator
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 12588
  • Real Name: Wayne
Re: Lead free ignorance...
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2018, 04:43:25 PM »
Last time I checked I was getting about 16-17fpe with that pistol using JSB 18.13's, a Magnum Hunter with the shortest pin might be around the same weight but longer.
  • Kalamazoo Mi
HHD Sup Com Cam Ranh Bay Vietnam 71-72

Offline KnifeMaker

  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 3343
  • yes
  • Real Name: Michael
Re: Lead free ignorance...
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2018, 09:49:21 PM »
Bob, that doesn't follow.  Tin as purchased from Roto metals for instance is substantially harder than pure lead.


I can scratch pure lead easily with my thumb nail. 40-1 dead, tin, still easily. 20-1 lead, still fairly easy. POure tin, can only shine it with a thumb nail but not a real scratch.


Now if you cut the tin with pure lead, how on earth would it be harder than un-cut tin? Doesn't follow.


Sure doesn't out of my pots.






Knife
  • Central Texas

Online rsterne

  • Member 2000+fps Club
  • Bob and Lloyd
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 19940
  • GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
    • Mozey-On-Inn
  • Real Name: Bob
Re: Lead free ignorance...
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2018, 11:35:12 PM »
Nope, an alloy of lead and tin is harder than pure tin.... just like solder melts at a lower temperature than either lead or tin....

Bob
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), .22 QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Bench PCP, 6mm Regulated PCP and .257 Unregulated, Two BRods.

Offline K.O.

  • Eternally Tinkering
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 4526
  • yes
  • Real Name: Kirby
Re: Lead free ignorance...
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2018, 03:45:13 PM »
Disadvantages are lower bc and faster twist needed for same comparative length of round...
  • The Great Northwest, United States, Washington
PC77 steel breech 18.7" barrel,  700 fps @ 15 & 755 @ 20 pumps with 7.4g Crosman points

1322 steel breech 14.5" barrel, 640-650 fps @ 22 pumps w/14.3g CPHP

1322 MLT steel breech 19" barrel, 682 fps @ 22 pumps w/14.3g CPHP,  13xx/66 hybrid

1322XLT 22" barrel, 700 fps  @ 11 pumps & 750 @ 16 w/14.3g CPHP,   13xx/2100 hybrid

MK-1322 steel breech 22" barrel, 750 fps @ 17 pumps & 805 @ 22 w/14.3g CPHP,   Mk-177/2240/13xx hybrid

U.S. Shooting Team 953  reduced valve, 525 fps w/ 7.4g points

Online rsterne

  • Member 2000+fps Club
  • Bob and Lloyd
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 19940
  • GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
    • Mozey-On-Inn
  • Real Name: Bob
Re: Lead free ignorance...
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2018, 01:44:29 AM »
Yes, of course the lower SD means a lower BC, compared to the same SIZE (but much heavier) lead pellet.... However, for the same WEIGHT, a tin pellet will have a longer, slimmer shape, and the better FF that goes with it.... Since BC = SD x FF.... a tin pellet should end up having a better BC than the same SD (weight) pellet in lead....

The longer pellet will indeed require a faster twist.... and a less dense material (eg tin vs. lead) will require a faster twist for the same shape.... On the other hand, if we are talking pellets, twist rate may not be an issue.... Bullets are another matter....

Bob
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), .22 QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Bench PCP, 6mm Regulated PCP and .257 Unregulated, Two BRods.

GTA - The best place for discussion about Air Guns.