Author Topic: Lead free ignorance... (Read 645 times))

Skeeeets · « **on:** October 10, 2018, 01:40:09 AM »

Getting back into airguns within the last 2 years, and have pretty much dedicated towards lead free pellets... small yard/big garden. Lead free pellets are expensive!! At 4 cents a pellet for the cheapest and are pretty good for my pace, skenco blue arrow 6.4 grain. But lead free jumps quick in price up to 20 cents a pellet!!!!!!!

I don't know much about casting pellets physically, but was extremely curious if someone with knowledge could help me....

Literally using a current day US penny, 97.5% Zinc, 2.5% Copper, would it be able to be melted and casted into a few pellets? Im guessing maybe 3-4 pellets could come from one penny at 12-16 grain a piece.

This has ben bugging me for quite awhile

Wayne52 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 10, 2018, 02:00:22 AM »

I've never cast any lead free pellets but the lead free pewter might be just the ticket, I really don't know for sure

Skeeeets · « **Reply #2 on:** October 10, 2018, 02:24:06 AM »

Lead free is expensive, and for the most part VERY light weight. Heavier weight = more $.

Again, im ignorant towards the process of making pellets. I just had that thought and its ben irritating me. IS IT POSSIBLE....

I understand certain metals can affect the rifling of barrels. From my seat of position, i can get a new barrel any time for the arms i own if anything does cause noticable damage/issues.

Airnut · « **Reply #3 on:** October 10, 2018, 05:06:59 AM »

It may work except there are laws that forbid melting or defacing US currency.

BSJ · « **Reply #4 on:** October 10, 2018, 06:56:03 AM »

I don't think Zinc would fill a small pellet sized mold well.

Pewter might work. I melted a lot of pewter down and cast it into .458 bullets. Simply to have a convenient and consist small "ingots" for alloying in lead. They did come out beautifully though...

Ps. Elemental lead stays where it lands. It doesn't leach into the environment. The fear mongering of lead on/in the ground is overblown. Lead oxide is indeed a problem, but small lumps of lead have little surface area and therefore produce tiny amounts of lead oxide as they age.

jmars · « **Reply #5 on:** October 10, 2018, 10:00:44 AM »

Quote from: BSJ on October 10, 2018, 06:56:03 AM

I don't think Zinc would fill a small pellet sized mold well.

Pewter might work. I melted a lot of pewter down and cast it into .458 bullets. Simply to have a convenient and consist small "ingot" for alloying in lead. They did come out beautifully though...

Ps. Elemental lead stays where it lands. It doesn't leach into the environment. The fear mongering of lead on/in the ground is overblown. Lead oxide is indeed a problem, but small lumps of lead have little surface area and therefore produce tiny amounts of lead oxide as they age.

I think Brian is correct, and lead in your yard is not a problem.

There are many abandoned trap and skeet shooting ranges scattered across the country that would literally have tons of lead shotgun pellets scattered across large areas of land.

These abandoned shooting ranges are often developed into housing areas or used as farm ground. They aren't poisoned "superfund" wastelands.

Contact the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), they WILL have the info that you are looking for.

Don't waste your time, energy and money pursuing "work arounds"
that may be entirely unnecessary. Get the facts first!

PS, one must learn to crawl before they can walk.....If you wish to cast projectiles in the future you need to start with and master the basics; not venture into unknown territory attempting to cast stuff from strange alloys using equipment designed for lead.

The piles of perfectly cast pellets that are pictured in this forum are the product of SKILLED people with much experience.
Small projectiles with skirts and hollow bases are TOUGH
to cast.

bavaria55n · « **Reply #6 on:** October 10, 2018, 10:03:03 AM »

Does zinc and pewter shrink more than lead when it cools?
Would resulting size be problem using a regular mold made for use with lead?
Gary

DanD · « **Reply #7 on:** October 10, 2018, 01:13:05 PM »

An H&N rep told me in an email that their Green pellets are 100% tin.

BSJ · « **Reply #8 on:** October 10, 2018, 01:34:13 PM »

That's good to know. I scrounged all that pewter for its Tin content...

Wayne52 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 10, 2018, 02:13:10 PM »

Pure tin is super anti corrosive too, I've dug up tin stuff that was really old and probably as shiny as the day it was lost! I've got a Mason's token that is about 120 years old that I dug up out of an old dump site that's simply brilliant and it was mixed in with ash, rust and you name it.

rsterne · « **Reply #10 on:** October 10, 2018, 03:47:04 PM »

I have suggested many times here on the Forum that if guys want to experiment with lightweight bullets that they cast with pure tin instead of lead.... Tin has a specific gravity of 7.3 compared to 11.3 for lead, so the bullets come out at 65% of the weight (roughly 1/3 lighter)…. The BHN of pure lead is about 5, and pure tin about 7.... so it is slightly softer than the commonly used 40:1 lead/tin alloy, which is BHN 8.... The shrinkage of tin is very close to that of lead, and it melts at a much lower temperature than lead (200*F lower)....

What's not to like?.... It's quite a bit more expensive than lead.... Rotometals current price on lead nuggets is $2.80/lb (in 5 lb. lots).... while pure tin (cut wire) is $19.49/lb.... although if you buy a 30 lb. box it's "only" $499 (16.67/lb)…. Don't forget, it will cast 55% more bullets per lb. so you would have to buy 47 lbs. of lead to cast the same number of bullets, and that would cost you $132.... That means that on a per bullet basis, pure tin is 3.8 times the price....

If you are casting a 50 gr. bullet, but in tin, it would weigh 32.5 gr.... and you would get 215 bullets per lb. of tin.... That works out to less than 8 cents each in tin, compared to 2 cents each for the (50 gr.) bullet in lead.... If you cast the new 34 gr. NOE Magnum Hunter .25 cal in tin it would weigh 22 gr. and cost about 5 cents each.... For comparison, the 34 gr. JSB King Heavies are 7 cents each (150 count tin), and the 25 gr Kings are 5.4 cents each (350 count tin)….

Bob

Wayne52 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 10, 2018, 04:32:52 PM »

I might even try casting some up with tin in the 22 Magnum Hunter mold you could use them in less powerful guns, I'd like to try something like that in my PP700SA

Wayne52 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 10, 2018, 04:43:25 PM »

Last time I checked I was getting about 16-17fpe with that pistol using JSB 18.13's, a Magnum Hunter with the shortest pin might be around the same weight but longer.

KnifeMaker · « **Reply #13 on:** October 10, 2018, 09:49:21 PM »

Bob, that doesn't follow. Tin as purchased from Roto metals for instance is substantially harder than pure lead.

I can scratch pure lead easily with my thumb nail. 40-1 dead, tin, still easily. 20-1 lead, still fairly easy. POure tin, can only shine it with a thumb nail but not a real scratch.

Now if you cut the tin with pure lead, how on earth would it be harder than un-cut tin? Doesn't follow.

Sure doesn't out of my pots.

Knife

rsterne · « **Reply #14 on:** October 10, 2018, 11:35:12 PM »

Nope, an alloy of lead and tin is harder than pure tin.... just like solder melts at a lower temperature than either lead or tin....

Bob

K.O. · « **Reply #15 on:** October 13, 2018, 03:45:13 PM »

Disadvantages are lower bc and faster twist needed for same comparative length of round...

rsterne · « **Reply #16 on:** October 14, 2018, 01:44:29 AM »

Yes, of course the lower SD means a lower BC, compared to the same SIZE (but much heavier) lead pellet.... However, for the same WEIGHT, a tin pellet will have a longer, slimmer shape, and the better FF that goes with it.... Since BC = SD x FF.... a tin pellet should end up having a better BC than the same SD (weight) pellet in lead....

The longer pellet will indeed require a faster twist.... and a less dense material (eg tin vs. lead) will require a faster twist for the same shape.... On the other hand, if we are talking pellets, twist rate may not be an issue.... Bullets are another matter.... The required RPM for the same bullet made out of Tin would be 25% faster than Lead.... eg. if you need a 20" twist for a given Lead bullet, you would need a 16" for Tin, at the same velocity....

Bob

subscriber · « **Reply #17 on:** November 05, 2018, 02:35:18 AM »

This lead-free bismuth alloy is made specifically for casting bullets:
https://www.rotometals.com/lead-free-bullet-casting-alloy-88-bismuth-12-tin/

Bismuth is non-toxic and is used for bird shot. It is a lot denser than tin and cheaper too at $16/lb; compared to $20/lb:

Back_Roads · « **Reply #18 on:** November 05, 2018, 09:07:27 AM »

I have been experimenting with bismuth bird shot in my Wing Shot, seems to work well. have not shot any crono strings to get actual FPE FPS data. I also have apound of pure bismuth to try casting some .50 cal slugs, but either need to clean out my lead pot , or buy a dedicated one for the bismuth, before I can do more testing.

rsterne · « **Reply #19 on:** November 05, 2018, 12:40:36 PM »

Yes, but the Bismuth alloy is BHN 19.3, wayyyyyyyy harder than pure Tin at 8.... I suspect the Bismuth alloy is much too hard for airgun use....

Bob