Author Topic: Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero? (Read 2879 times))

JungleShooter · « **on:** October 09, 2018, 04:11:21 PM »

Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero?

I have a Leapers UTG Hunters 6-24x50 True Strength scope (1" tube).
I has no published Elevation Adjustment Range or “total elevation adjustment.”

By simply clicking it all the way up and down, I get about 250 clicks (at ¼" per click that’s about 60 MOA).

However, there is no firm end of the adjustment range – I mean, I was able to keep clicking and it just got progressively harder and harder to click. Finally, I figured I better stop clicking before something broke....!

So, the 250 clicks are the clicks I could get without exerting “too much force” on the turret dial.

However, here’re my questions, since I don’t know how much “too much force” is:

(1) Can I use all those 250 clicks and not loose zero with a springer?

(2) Do you have experience operating a UTG scope close to the limits of its elevation adjustment range?

(3) Some scopes have a published elevation adjustment range.* Can I use all those MOAs/ clicks without losing zero?
*(cf. list below)

(4) Do you know if the scopes with published elevation adjustment range have a firm stop when you reach the end of the range, or does it keep going, just harder and harder like my UTG?

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

Scopes on My Wish List, with Published Elevation Adjustments

Nikko Sterling
Series: Diamond FFP 30mm | 6-24x50 | Code: NSFFP62450HMD
Turret Range 50MOA

Series: Target Master 30mm | 6-24x56 | Code: NSTT3062456
"Up/Down 25MOA" probably 25up and 25down = 50MOA

Series: Diamond Long Range 30mm | 6-24x50 | Code: NDSI62450LRHF
"Up/Down 20MOA" probably 20up and 20down = 40MOA

Series: Target Master 30mm | 5-20x50 | Code: NSTT3052050
"Up/Down 20MOA" probably 30up and 30down = 60MOA

Optisan EVX 5-24x56
Max Windage + Elevation Adj – 50moa

Hawke
Sidewinder 30 SF 6-24x56 / 30mm
Elevation Adjustment Range: 62 MOA

Airmax 30 SF 6-24x50 / 30mm
Elevation Adjustment Range: 65 MOA

Athlon
Argos BTR 6-24x50
60MOA

Helos BTR 6-24x50
60MOA = 18MIL

Midas TAC 6-24x50
Total Elevation Adjustment    25 mil = 83 MOA
Total Windage Adjustment    15 mil = 50 MOA

MTC Viper Pro 5-30x50
Max Windage Adj and Max Elevation Adj – 42 MOA

Sightron S-TAC 4-20x50
W/E Travel (@100 Yds.):    40/80 MOA

Vortex Diamondback Tactical 6-24x50 FFP
65 MOA total

Vector Optics: Counterpunch 6-25x56 FFP Rifle Scope High Profile | Part Number: SCFF-03C
Elevation / Windage Range: 21 MIL = 70MOA

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Sun Optics
Series: First Focal Plane Variable | 6-24x50 | No. CS41-62450
¿Does anybody know how much elevation adjustment this gives me?

Series: Varmint Seeker 30mm Rifle Scope | 6-24x50 | No. KS-AP62450
¿Does anybody know how much elevation adjustment this gives me?

Aztec 5.5-25x50 with DYND-1 Reticle
¿Does anybody know how much elevation adjustment this gives me?

mobilehomer · « **Reply #1 on:** October 09, 2018, 05:06:21 PM »

Especially with a springer, the closer you can keep the reticle to mechanical center, the better. Go too far one way and the springs lose tension. Too far the other way and coil bind can set in. After mechanically or optically centering the scope, many here recommend adjustable rings or mounts. I and many others recommend barrel bending. At twenty yards try to get as close to center as possible by external means, then use turrets to fine tune.

UlteriorModem · « **Reply #2 on:** October 09, 2018, 05:17:31 PM »

Tom Gaylord says 75% max fwiw.

I use shims. I know a lot here say no don't do that. But then again I don't have any 'expensive' scopes.

Typically I will use a strip cut from a beer can if that's not enough then a plastic 'credit card' One gun has an old NRA card on it

Xptical · « **Reply #3 on:** October 09, 2018, 05:25:29 PM »

Optically center the scope. I, too, tried the "turn and count" method and found it lacking. Keep a small makeup mirror (walmart or sally's or the wife's kit) with you and check it outside. It may be hard to see the "shadow" they talk about at first, but it is there. Just keep clicking and looking till you see it, then bury the shadow behind the crosshairs.

Shoot at something about 20' away. If it's up/down/left/right a bit, that's cool. Mine was like 10" high at 15'.

I shimmed at first, but, really, bending the barrel was the solution. A springer will be hard on any shims.

While you are at it, clean those useless sticky pads off the scope mounts. 200 shots on a Benj Prowler, and my sticky pads had rolled up under the scope.

If you just really don't want to bend the barrel, then get an adjustable scope mount.

JungleShooter · « **Reply #4 on:** October 09, 2018, 05:45:25 PM »

Friends,
you have good advice.
And I already have considered it, and thus bought adjustable mounts. So, I get to move the scope where I want.

The reason I'm asking is that with a medium-low powered gun to shoot 18 or 21 grainers to 80 or 100 yards is requiring a lot of clicks, and those clicks will get me close to the scope elevation adjustment limits.
So, before I set up my new adjustable scope mounts, I wanted some advice

: How close can I get to the limits of the elevation adjustment range before loosing my zero is likely to occurr?

(And no, it is not an option for me to make changes of the scope mounts between long and short shots -- because I go from shooting 80 yards to 20 yards and then 100y just like that.

)

Xptical · « **Reply #5 on:** October 09, 2018, 06:20:19 PM »

You want something like a mildot adjustable scope then?

It's not a barrel issue, it's just you want to shoot at 25 yards then, say, work the DoPE to 100 yards.

Be aware that centerfire LRS is mainly possible due to the flat (ish) trajectories of the ammo they use. And general bad-butt-ery.

A 3.5km shot needed something like 300 MoA adjustment. I know it happened, but it seems crazy.

Also, it seems a bit *too* convenient. If 1 MoA is 3.5" at 100 yards, then 3500 yards at 300 MoA would be like 300 meters of holdover! Or maybe it's too late in the day to do that math.

In any event, when numbers *almost* line up, it makes one take a second look at the engagement.

Back to your problem: Build yourself a DoPE sheet for your pellets. Once you have 2 or 3 data points, you can calculate the rest. Then, run the numbers for drop at 100 meters, convert to mils, and see if that final number is within the 75% range of your scope.

Alternatively, zero at 25 yards then shoot a 4'*8' plywood sheet at 100 yards and just measure the drop. The DoPE is only *really* needed for arbitrary engagement ranges.

JungleShooter · « **Reply #6 on:** October 09, 2018, 07:25:48 PM »

Thanks, Corey, I did the math (and yes, it's already too late in the day for it, but I tried).

So, using my trusty ChairGun Pro (while sitting in a somewhat softer chair, wonder why the software designers didn't call it BeanBag Pro...?), I need the following elevation clicks up (standard zero of the scope is JSB 15.9gr, 35 yards):

For Baracuda -- to 100 yards -- I need 230 clicks up
For Baracuda Hunter Extreme -- to 100 yards -- I need 209 clicks up
For JSB Heavy -- to 100 yards -- I need 187 clicks up
For JSB Domed (15.9gr) -- to 100 yards -- I need 143 clicks up

So, I could adjust the scope in the adjustable mounts so that it shoots my standard pellet (JSB 15.9) at my standard zero (35y) almost all the way clicked down, 10 clicks above the bottom adjustment limit.
Then, if I shoot Baracuda to 100y, I have 240 clicks left until I hit the top adjustment limit.
Remember, my UTG scope gives me 250 clicks in total -- so theoretically, that would cover even the Baracuda at 21gr out to 100y.

But that was precisely my question: Am I going to loose my zero if I get within 10 clicks of the lower and upper extremes of the elevation adjustment range of 250 clicks?
Or how many clicks?

(Tom UlteriorModem, I registered your answer, 75% of the total range, says the Godfather of AG. Thanks. You wouldn't have a link for that, eh?)

The other question was if the scopes with published elevation adjustment ranges (cf. the list at the bottom of the OP), have a hard and fast stop at the limit, or does it just get harder to keep clicking?

Xptical · « **Reply #7 on:** October 09, 2018, 07:51:41 PM »

1. Yes. Go look at a mildot scope. You'll use a combo of clicks and holdover/under. Like at 100 yards, use the bottom dot as a impact. Or just get a scope with more clicks.

Also, see Texas (Kentucky?) windage.

2. They click for a while then they break. Look up optical centering if you want to find the center. Then, you have maybe 125 up/down. Now, adjust 80 clicks down (well within 75% limit) and zero to 25 yards using scope mounts. Now you have 160+ (good) clicks of up. Well within DoPE for the JSB Domed.

You will have to either do the math or just shoot till you sort out all the intermediate ranges. 25/50/75/100/125 yards and calculate it as clicks.

Please note a lot of low-end scopes *will* change windage as you adjust elevation. i.e., you'll adjust upward but also get an unwanted right/left movement as well.

sscoyote · « **Reply #8 on:** November 22, 2018, 02:46:26 AM »

I also like to shoot long range with all my guns. I often use Burris Signature rings with inserts and if that still gives me more down adjustment once I'm sighted in for a certain distance, i'll calculate the amount of down left, and take MOST of it up with a calcd. thickness of plastic shim in the bottom of rear ring between insert and scope tube. I often have so much useable up adjustment in the optic then that I'll set it to an intermediate adjustment while stored. One of the best tools I've ever used for this purpose is a Bushnell grid magnetic boresighter. I recently thought to put a 6X Jap. Tasco handgun scope on some pistol thinking that the 30mm scope tube would have a lot of UP adjustment in it, but once the optic was on the handgun, when I checked the turret adjustment and repeatability with the boresighter I found that after 30 or 40 MOA adjustment the turret kept clicking away but the reticle didn't move. Handy gizmos I tell you. It tells me just about everything I need to know about my optics.

UlteriorModem · « **Reply #9 on:** November 22, 2018, 10:04:29 AM »

Quote

(Tom UlteriorModem, I registered your answer, 75% of the total range, says the Godfather of AG. Thanks. You wouldn't have a link for that, eh?)

Sorry I missed your question when you first posted it.

In this video link at around the 5:00 mark...

bandg · « **Reply #10 on:** November 22, 2018, 12:19:14 PM »

That link shows video unavailable.

UlteriorModem · « **Reply #11 on:** November 22, 2018, 12:35:37 PM »

Click the link under "Video unavailable" It says "Watch on you tube"

JungleShooter · « **Reply #12 on:** November 22, 2018, 01:03:06 PM »

Tom, thanks for the link, yupp, there it is:
Tom Gaylord: “When you get all the way up, when you get three quarters up on some scopes, the return spring for the erector tube loses all tension. You loose your zero. [... Too far] to the right and too high – bad things.”

So that means I can click my scope pretty much all the way down (compressing the erector tube springs), and still hold zero (of course, when the turning gets too hard toward the end I should probably stop and not force anything...).

Then, how much elevation adjustment do I really have?
If I apply this to my UTG scope: It has about 250 clicks of total elevation adjustment range.
75% of that are 188 clicks.

If my rifle has no barrel droop,
and if the scope rail engraved on the barrel lined up for a reasonable zero say at 30 yards with a typical pellet (14gr),
then I would have half of those 188 clicks available for making elevation adjustments. 188 / 2 = 94 clicks
(barrel droop gives me less clicks....)

94 clicks at ¼" per click allows me to compensate for 23.5" of pellet drop at 100y.
at 70y: 16.5"
at 50y: 11.8"
at 30y: 7.1"

If I wanted to use an 18gr pellet like JSB Heavy instead of a 14gr, I will need to compensate.
In my gun with around 13FPE, at 30y I need 23 clicks up from a 14 grain pellet. No problem. I have 94 clicks available.
18gr @ 30y: 23 clicks up from the 14 grain pellet
18gr @ 40y: 41 clicks up
18gr @ 50y: 64 clicks up
18gr @ 60y: 91 clicks up ➔ NO MORE elevation adjustment available!

Now, for a 21 grain pellet like the H&N Baracuda will limit my clicking range even further.
21gr @ 30y: 43 clicks up from the 14 grain pellet
21gr @ 40y: 61 clicks up
21gr @ 50y: 91 clicks up ➔ NO MORE adjustment available.

(Other muzzle energies [ME] produce different numbers, of course; more ME means a flatter trajectory and thus less compensation for pellet drop is needed.)

So, if I want to shoot out any further and click my scope instead of holding over, or if I want to use heavier pellets, I will need adjustable scope mounts.

The Situation with Adjustable Scope Mounts
On the bottom of my 250 clicks adjustment range, the turning gets pretty difficult for the last 30 clicks or so. So, deducting 30 from 188 = 153 clicks of usable elevation adjustment range.

I adjust the scope in the mounts in such a way that my zero at 30 yards for my lightest pellet (14gr) is right at the bottom of the adjustment range. That makes basically 153 clicks available for elevation adjustments.

Now, I can click the 18gr all the way out to 76 yards.
And the 21gr I can click out to 68 yards.

If I want to shoot out to 100 yards, I need to use a lighter pellet, or a more powerful gun....

Am I thinking this through correctly, or do you see any flaw in this?

rsterne · « **Reply #13 on:** November 22, 2018, 02:51:16 PM »

If you do a lot of shooting at 100 yards, get a set of Hawke 25 MOA scope shims.... When you sight in for close range, you will be somewhat below the middle of your scope's adjustment range, close to the middle at 100 yards, and still within a reasonable range of center at 200 yards.... Problem solved....

Bob

JungleShooter · « **Reply #14 on:** November 22, 2018, 03:27:05 PM »

Yes, Bob, I'm already doing the scope adjustment, but instead of a fixed shim of 25 MOA up, I have adjustable scope mounts* that I can set basically right at the bottom of my adjustment range. That was I don't waste any clicks on the low end.

However, even by maximizing my clicks, I run out of adjustment range.
It's because my scope has only about 40 MOA elevation adjustment range.
And...

...it's because my gun is so weak....

13 FPE more or less.

*Adjustable Scope Mounts
I'm using the first on the list below, Eagle Vision seemed to be the best of them all, with big double adjustment screws, and with $10 reducers from 30mm to 1" tubes, and with Picatinny rails on top for adding additional gear. Ebay has it, shipping from the UK was no problem (it adjusts for elevation only, not for windage).

● Eagle Vision
http://eaglevisioncam.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=62_71&product_id=77

● FX No Limits
http://www.straightshooters.com/fx-no-limit-weaver-mount-2-pc-1-adjustable.html

● Sportsmatch
http://www.sportsmatch-uk.com/products

● Diana Bullseye ZR 1-Pc Mount with Tapered Rail + Recoil Compensation
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/bullseye-zr-1-pc-mount-fits-1-and-30mm-tubes-11mm-dovetail-0-04-droop?a=5495

● Beeman 5039
http://www.straightshooters.com/adjustable-1-piece-1-mounts.html

● Sun Optics
http://sunopticsusa.com/rings/adjustable-airgun-rings-ring-base-combos/

● BSA Adjustable Scope Mounts
URL=?

● B-Square Adjustable Scope Mounts
URL=?

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Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero?

Author Topic: Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero? (Read 2879 times))

JungleShooter

Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero?

mobilehomer

Re: Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero?

UlteriorModem

Re: Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero?

Xptical

Re: Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero?

JungleShooter

Re: Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero?

Xptical

Re: Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero?

JungleShooter

Re: Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero?

Xptical

Re: Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero?

sscoyote

Re: Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero?

UlteriorModem

Re: Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero?

bandg

Re: Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero?

UlteriorModem

Re: Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero?

JungleShooter

Re: Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero?

rsterne

Re: Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero?

JungleShooter

Re: Scope Elevation Adjustment Range –– What’s the Limit and Still Hold Zero?