Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?



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Offline AG72

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Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« on: August 12, 2018, 04:38:45 AM »
I do most my shooting from a triggerstick, and almost all my airguns like it, but my hw30s in 177 hates it, i have struggle with this gun since i got it, tried different pellets, but cant shoot it consistently accurate, then it strucked me, she is hold sensitive, i put my hand in the V at the triggerstick and shot 5 shots, and the group shrunked a lot! Now this is not a comfortable way to shoot so i will try to shoot from a bench and a sandbag to see if that helps, but my question is: what cause hold sensitivity and is there a easy solution to it beside artillery hold? Is a plastic sleeve around the spring one way to fix it? Is the 177 cal more hold sensitive than other?
The collection so far:
Hatsan 55s
Hatsan striker AR
Artemis cr600w
Artemis CP1 .177
Hw30s .177 Synthetic
Beeman P17 .177
Lov-21 177 co2
Crosman 2240 co2
Crosman vigilante 177 co2
Weihrauch Hw30s .20
Crosman C31 co2 BB gun
519 Special .20
Hatsan 125th .25
Weirauch HW35 .177
Browning x-blade .177
Walther LGV master pro .177
FWB 300s Universal .177
Benjamin Marauder .25
Air Arms s510 carbine .177
Hatsan AT44 .22
Weihrauch HW97k .22
Weihrauch HW50s
Zoraki HP-01 .177

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Offline Novagun

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2018, 05:09:35 AM »
The cause of hold sensitivity is the smoothness of the shooting cycle. That is why Weihrauchs shoot better then Gamos but I don't think that is the complete answer. The shooter has a lot to do with the result.

The experts tell me that the trick is to shoot the air rifle with exactly the same hold and shoulder/ cheek placement trigger squeeze every time. Easy to say but not so easy to do. It seems to me that those that get consistently good groups at a distance use sand bags front and rear.
Not for me I like to hold my rifle but it does work, especially for pcps.

I notice that a lot of air rifle shooters especially FT shooters use the same sort of glove as small bore .22 LR shooters. The ten metre air rifle shooters do as well and they are very very good but they are shooting pcps.  I noticed shooting my air rifle that the fore hand and how you hold it ungloved, makes a difference to where the rifle points. Wide open flat palm the rifle points at the spot. Half close the hand and the rifle points higher and close a bit more and it points higher still. So that explains the reason for the stiff glove, same forehand rest every time.
The stiff glove is a bit of an encumbrance shooting a springer or a pumper because to load you need mobility in both hands. That mobility really precludes the use of a sling such as used in smallbore. You would have to unclip and reclip every shot and your hold would change a little.

The next thing is that the effort in cocking and reloading a springer or pumper involves exercise, more so than reloading a .22 target rifle and very much more so when shooting prone on a mound.  That exercise raises the pulse. That can be mitigated with a couple of good breaths before going into the aiming, firing cycle but not completely when there is a string of shots to fire. 13 on a small bore range at a small bore target.

I don't have a satisfactory answer to your question so lets hope your thread brings out the complete one.

PS. Under my name Novagun is says Sharpshooter, Yea right.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 05:14:29 AM by Novagun »
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Offline A.K.A. Tommy Boy

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2018, 05:53:08 AM »
Hi Jorgen.

I have both multi-pumps and springers ( No PCP's). Most of my springers are gas ram but not all.  This is how I shoot all my guns. I place my off-hand out and rest the palm on a tree trunk, door frame, tree branch, log etc.  I rest the gun in the Vee formed between the thumb and fingers. The trigger pull (squeeze) may vary from gun to gun but the hold is basically the same. The palm is always facing away from me. If I am shooting off of a horizontal log I just rest my palm on the log and shoot the same way. If don't have anything to rest my palm on, I brace my arm and elbow on my body or knees and shoot the same way. The end result is I am always resting the gun between my fingers and thumb with palm facing away from me.  I DO NOT GRIP THE FORE-STOCK. I let the gun float between my thumb and fingers.  I shoot this way either standing or sitting with either a rifle or pistol.  It is a variation of the artillery hold.  I don't think anyone else here in the GTA shoots this way but I have had good results shooting like this.  I suppose that you could call it the  "Tommy-Boy Hold".   You may wish to give it a try and see if it works for you too.   

Best Wishes - Tom   

P.S.
I can shoot this method in either warm weather or cold.  Gloves on or off.  I can also shoot like this with heavy mittens on.  I have used this method while wearing snow shoes and cross country ski's.  I originally started shooting like this, hunting in deep winter, while I was wearing mittens on my hands.   I then applied it to everything else, year round.  Shooting like this, you can still maintain control of your ski poles. I can even shoot this way with ice & snow on my gloves, whereas the palm flat method is not so good under those conditions. ;D
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 06:35:21 AM by T. Wood - A.K.A. Tommy Boy »
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Offline AG72

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2018, 05:53:51 AM »
Thank you Hugh, Some god info there!
The collection so far:
Hatsan 55s
Hatsan striker AR
Artemis cr600w
Artemis CP1 .177
Hw30s .177 Synthetic
Beeman P17 .177
Lov-21 177 co2
Crosman 2240 co2
Crosman vigilante 177 co2
Weihrauch Hw30s .20
Crosman C31 co2 BB gun
519 Special .20
Hatsan 125th .25
Weirauch HW35 .177
Browning x-blade .177
Walther LGV master pro .177
FWB 300s Universal .177
Benjamin Marauder .25
Air Arms s510 carbine .177
Hatsan AT44 .22
Weihrauch HW97k .22
Weihrauch HW50s
Zoraki HP-01 .177

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Offline AG72

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2018, 06:03:38 AM »
Thanx Tom! I used to shoot like so in my youth, don't know why i have not tried it yet, but thank you for the reminder!
The collection so far:
Hatsan 55s
Hatsan striker AR
Artemis cr600w
Artemis CP1 .177
Hw30s .177 Synthetic
Beeman P17 .177
Lov-21 177 co2
Crosman 2240 co2
Crosman vigilante 177 co2
Weihrauch Hw30s .20
Crosman C31 co2 BB gun
519 Special .20
Hatsan 125th .25
Weirauch HW35 .177
Browning x-blade .177
Walther LGV master pro .177
FWB 300s Universal .177
Benjamin Marauder .25
Air Arms s510 carbine .177
Hatsan AT44 .22
Weihrauch HW97k .22
Weihrauch HW50s
Zoraki HP-01 .177

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Offline Springrrrr

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2018, 10:33:55 AM »
Some say that the spring guns recoil before the pellet ever leaves the barrel.  Others discount this idea. Here are two videos that show barrel movement and how important it is to maintain consistency.





Either way and for the most part, a spring gun should be held as close to the same for each shot as possible.  I have tried holding the forstock with the back of my hand resting on a solid object, resting the forstock on a foam base and resting the forstock on a pretty solid shooting bag.  They all changed the point of impact, some more than others.

A spring release is quite violent.  The more it can be kept in check with as few harmonics as possible the better chance the gun has of being accurate.

I have three higher end spring guns.  An HW97 Motorhead tuned, an LGU tuned by yours truely and a TX200 with a 12 FPE Vortek kit in it.  They are all about the same in accuracy with the slightest edge going to the LGU.

I have not gotten into the HW97.  No need to mess with near perfection.  The other two have a tube/shroud of sorts holding the spring on the straight and narrow.  I fabricated a metal tube for the LGU and am using the Vortek set up as it came.

Doesn't matter which gun it is, after the shot breaks, I often loose the target from recoil and have to acquire it to see where the pellet landed.  This is after taking every precaution to tame the recoil I know.  Even with the recoil, all the guns can make a one hole group at 40 yards and will often rival my Daystate Wolverine R for accurate shots, but it is MUCH harder to do.  Even the Wolverine has minor recoil that has to be considered.
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Offline Hoosier Daddy

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2018, 10:44:53 AM »
I have the most success when I find the placement of the front hand or bag on or very close to the balance point of the gun on the fore-grip. Usually no much ahead of the trigger instead of out at the end of the wood.
 Let the gun do it's thing (recoil / twist / torque) and it will do it the same every time.
Don't try to stifle it.
 I also do not wrap the thumb on my trigger hand around the palm-swell. Let it lie right in line with my trigger finger.
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Offline LAalex

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2018, 11:30:46 AM »
I have the most success when I find the placement of the front hand or bag on or very close to the balance point of the gun on the fore-grip. Usually no much ahead of the trigger instead of out at the end of the wood.
 Let the gun do it's thing (recoil / twist / torque) and it will do it the same every time.
Don't try to stifle it.
 I also do not wrap the thumb on my trigger hand around the palm-swell. Let it lie right in line with my trigger finger.


+1.
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Offline AG72

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2018, 12:03:06 PM »
Thanx for all the info and help! The way i shoot is that i rest the gun on the triggerstick where the front stockscrews are placed, and usualy have my left hand in front of the triggerstick, and this works with all my airguns except the one mentioned, even the fwb 300 universal works perfect this way... But i will try different holds to see what happens
The collection so far:
Hatsan 55s
Hatsan striker AR
Artemis cr600w
Artemis CP1 .177
Hw30s .177 Synthetic
Beeman P17 .177
Lov-21 177 co2
Crosman 2240 co2
Crosman vigilante 177 co2
Weihrauch Hw30s .20
Crosman C31 co2 BB gun
519 Special .20
Hatsan 125th .25
Weirauch HW35 .177
Browning x-blade .177
Walther LGV master pro .177
FWB 300s Universal .177
Benjamin Marauder .25
Air Arms s510 carbine .177
Hatsan AT44 .22
Weihrauch HW97k .22
Weihrauch HW50s
Zoraki HP-01 .177

Proud member of F.U.G.L.

Offline selittle

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2018, 12:58:58 PM »
This probably going to sound like a crazy idea but what if one were to put some kind vibration dampening device in the barrel or stock? Like a limbsaver for a bow?
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Offline Bryan H.

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2018, 01:08:59 PM »
If i remember right, the general consensus is power vs. weight plays the biggest factor that you can't control with a good tune.  A good balance point is about 1 pound of weight per foot pound of energy.  I think that is part if the reason for the heavy stocks and big hamsters on some of the HFT springers.  That is also probably why the fixed barrel springers are often considered more accurate, they are heavier and easier to shoot accurately.

The HW30S should be right at or below the threshhold of a pound per fpe.  A proper tune should get it there if it doesn't come that way from the factory.  I think a JM kit might help as well, with properly fitted spring guides and etc.
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Offline Wolverineshooter

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2018, 01:21:35 PM »
This probably going to sound like a crazy idea but what if one were to put some kind vibration dampening device in the barrel or stock? Like a limbsaver for a bow?

Limbsaver makes the dampening devices as well, some swear by it. However I find it hard to tune to the right spot to make a difference
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Offline Novagun

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2018, 05:05:26 PM »
Barrel vibration is a problem in some rifles but not so much in others. I have muzzle brakes on nearly all of mine.  Most are delrin additions because I like the look and they provide rust proof handles for cocking and handling but they make no difference to accuracy.  However I have two rifles, a Daisy 953 and a Webley Tomohawk that I have turned up steel brakes; quite heavy. They shoot very poorly without the brake but with it on the barrel vibration is very much tamed.

As far as recoil goes, the sleeving of the spring and tuning goes so far but reducing spring power makes a big difference. Light rifles with big springs like some Hatsans and Gamos benefit by reduction but you do lose some power.

Then of course triggers. A lot of factory triggers are just bad and with a bad trigger with inconsistent let off or excessive creep there is an impediment.

I mention this because perhaps consistant hold can be confused by other things that influence accuracy. Even flinching on discharge and following through after discharge.

PS. Is the dampimg device spoken of with bows the rod with weights on it that I have seen and does that parallel the barrel weights on target rifles.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 05:56:55 PM by Novagun »
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Offline mobilehomer

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2018, 05:44:07 PM »
Part of the problem is no cushioning between the stock and the trigger stick. Try a piece of pool noodle or other foam on each side of the fork. Also, if you move the contact point fore or aft, it will change the POI a ton. You will find that one location will be the most consistent. Keep trying different things, you will find IT.
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Offline guero_gordo

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2018, 06:13:19 PM »
you can also span the top of the y with a strip of fabric. IIRC UTG makes one like this.
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Offline avator

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2018, 06:21:19 PM »
Springers have a double recoil. Rearward as the spring launches and forward as the piston reaches the end of the air chamber. Our bodies react to this without us even knowing it. Another cause is the lockup. If it's loose or weak your barrel will droop when the gun is shot.
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Offline Back_Roads

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2018, 08:59:13 PM »
 I will add to this spring torque adds a spiral motion to the mix, if side pressure from a shooting stick yoke or similar front rest, or hand hold, can bounce a gun sideways a bit during the shot cycle . Polishing spring ends and adding thrust washers can help remedy that.
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Offline ssbn617

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2018, 09:09:40 PM »
I just received a John in Pa tuned AAtX200 and as my first springer. I got to tell you, I have a long way to go before I can shoot this beauty accurately.
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Offline c_m_shooter

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2018, 08:33:59 AM »
Pad the yoke of the sticks with either a pool noodle or wrap an old sock around it.
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Offline Korak-again

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Re: Hold sensitive guns, cause and solution?
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2018, 09:02:18 AM »
This probably going to sound like a crazy idea but what if one were to put some kind vibration dampening device in the barrel or stock? Like a limbsaver for a bow?

     I placed one on my D34 pro compact, I had removed the muzzle weight. I could not tell any difference accuracy wise even placing the damper at different points on the barrel. However Im not a great shot.  The big improvement came when slapping the barrel.open. It took all of the sting away. I'll be adding one to my HW50 for that reason alone.
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