Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy



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Offline Horatio

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2018, 04:22:22 PM »
Just be sure the "MOA" being referring to is the actual red dot size and not to the windage and elevation adjustment 'resolution'. But if there's red dots in the $40 range that have a 1 MOA dot size, that's something I'd like to look into. I just started searching for them and am coming up empty, if you saved a link or remember a brand/model of one, I'd appreciate knowing.

Good luck.

I don't think dot size is a limiter to accuracy nearly as much as some people propose. If the Army and USMC trained soldiers to consistently hit a target thinner than the front sight width, why would dot size be determinant?
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Offline Artie

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2018, 04:49:45 PM »
Quote
I don't think dot size is a limiter to accuracy nearly as much as some people propose. If the Army and USMC trained soldiers to consistently hit a target thinner than the front sight width, why would dot size be determinant?

Are you referring to the 300 meter range? I could always see my popups out to 300 meters with iron sights. No way I would attempt a 300m target I couldn't see. The CCO's (dot) sure made it a lot easier though.
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Offline George Schmermund

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2018, 05:01:46 PM »
The red dot sights that I've collected are useful in some situations. The down side is that the dot can move if your head moves while sighting. Maybe my experience is because I've only bought cheap sights. I've never looked through a really good one so I can't claim that the dot moving around at the POA is endemic to all red dot sights.

Working with the ones I've got required some way to assure that the dot was always where it should be for best accuracy. I was going to post my approach to a cure in another thread last year, but the discussion had such a derisive tone I decided not to get involved.

This thread is much more civil and what is being discussed as a treatment for a real problem is reassuring. It's not being regarded as another UFO sighting. The photo shows the method that I've found most useful. It's the o-ring method. I just used a small one I had laying around. Home depot has lots to choose from. There are no specific dimensions, but the one in the photo is 3/16" I.D. That seems to work well, but when I find one with about the same I.D. with a thinner wall I'll switch them out. Spit works good as a temporary glue even after it dries. this allows testing and adjustment until you're ready to commit.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 04:57:22 PM by George Schmermund »
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Offline Artie

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2018, 06:21:15 PM »
I like the idea of using a dot sight at 10-20 yards. I have two or three lightweight 500 fps guns and I would prefer to keep them that way. I'm thinking red dot may be the answer but I would need a bit of magnification. I have to use glasses to see my target at 10 yards. It is paper with a series of one inch circles having @ 3/16" bullseyes.  Even with fine fiber optic open sights the bullseye is 90% obscured.
The circle/o'ring idea would almost be a requirement since most dot sights I've used have parallax under 50 yards and that range is most of our shooting. The circle would certainly aid in centering the red dot to minimize parallax for close range targeting.
The other bebefit with the dot is rapid target acquisition, very handy for pesting and varminting.
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Offline fsa46

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2018, 06:49:07 PM »
[quote author=Horatio l
I don't think dot size is a limiter to accuracy nearly as much as some people propose. If the Army and USMC trained soldiers to consistently hit a target thinner than the front sight width, why would dot size be determinant?
[/quote]

 The only reason I would like a smaller dot is for 10- 15 yard target shooting as stated above. The dot on the cheaper sight I think is 2 MOA. I say think because I have a Vortex Venom that's 3 MOA and the dot on the sight I'm using now is definitely smaller and that's the reason I'm using it.

The 3 MOA dot completely covers the "bull", and than some. The 2 MOA just barely covers the " bull". I would like a tiny dot that I could see inside the "bull" and for me, feel it is a lot more precise aiming and hence better accuracy.

The best way I can explain how I feel is, (and I'm not talking MOA ). A 3" dot covering a 3" circle isn't going to be as accurate as a 1/16" dot precisely aimed inside a 3" circle. I know this is a dramatic example  but makes my case.

I ran into the same thing with my FWB 300S collection. These are very accurate 10 meter shooters, but, I use a scope on them and shoot from 10 yards to 25 yards .The scopes I was using had to thick of a reticle for target accuracy. When I went to the Hawke 4-12X40 AO, with the thin AMX reticle the results were there with a lot tighter groups. All five of my 300 S springers have the same scope on them for that reason.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 06:52:48 PM by fsa46 »
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Offline Horatio

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2018, 10:56:28 PM »
[quote author=Horatio l
I don't think dot size is a limiter to accuracy nearly as much as some people propose. If the Army and USMC trained soldiers to consistently hit a target thinner than the front sight width, why would dot size be determinant?

 The only reason I would like a smaller dot is for 10- 15 yard target shooting as stated above. The dot on the cheaper sight I think is 2 MOA. I say think because I have a Vortex Venom that's 3 MOA and the dot on the sight I'm using now is definitely smaller and that's the reason I'm using it.

The 3 MOA dot completely covers the "bull", and than some. The 2 MOA just barely covers the " bull". I would like a tiny dot that I could see inside the "bull" and for me, feel it is a lot more precise aiming and hence better accuracy.

The best way I can explain how I feel is, (and I'm not talking MOA ). A 3" dot covering a 3" circle isn't going to be as accurate as a 1/16" dot precisely aimed inside a 3" circle. I know this is a dramatic example  but makes my case.

I ran into the same thing with my FWB 300S collection. These are very accurate 10 meter shooters, but, I use a scope on them and shoot from 10 yards to 25 yards .The scopes I was using had to thick of a reticle for target accuracy. When I went to the Hawke 4-12X40 AO, with the thin AMX reticle the results were there with a lot tighter groups. All five of my 300 S springers have the same scope on them for that reason.
[/quote]

I 50/50 agree. But to share something personal, the fact that Im so bad at offhand shooting, and the fact that Im not great at shooting with both eyes open. And having a slight astigmatism makes the dot look slightly like a comma.

Stated in reverse, if I put the comma (dot) in the same exact spot on the target, and the comma is In the same part of the window (especially on a cheap red dot), I get the same POI. If I shot better with both eyes open, I think the dot size would not matter as much.
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Offline fsa46

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2018, 07:47:20 AM »
Just curious if anyone has given this a try and how you like it. Having use this for quite some time now, I am convinced the improvement in accuracy is dramatic.

Keep in mind, if you do not have a parallax issue with your Red Dot this isn't going to help you. On the sight I'm using, if I move my head left to right there isn't any parallax issue, but when I move it up and down the "dot " moves and this mod corrected that problem .

It's hard to believe but I sold the Vortex Venom because like I actually like this $20.00 Red Dot sight a lot better then the Venom after I made this mod.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 10:56:30 AM by fsa46 »
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Offline d-cuttler

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2018, 03:48:22 PM »
Maybe you could use a "hole saver" the kind sold in office supply stores to repair torn holes in paper for 3 ring binders. You could darken one with a felt tip marker, and just stick it on. They come with an adhesive back, and cost almost nothing.
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Offline falvesjr

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2018, 09:40:52 PM »
...has that circle dot feature already built in as one of the 4 choices I can use when I turn it on.

Steve,

Unless the circle is etched or printed on the reflector, it doesn't help at all. Think of it this way, if the circle is projected along with the center dot, it will move with it as you move your eye. By having it physically on the reflector, it gives you a "target" to place the red dot on that stays put in the center of the view.
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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2018, 11:26:25 PM »
I find this whole concept quite brilliant and I'm wondering why the manufacturers havent thought of it. If I were you I would look immediately into a patent.

Just throwing this out there, but could the use of thin clear glass like a cell phone screen protector material be of use?

The inner circle could be laser etched, and the overall diameter laser cut.

I love the whole idea because I have begun making my own clear globe sight inserts, playing with different hole sizes and inner circle sizes.

Just sayin'........
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Offline Rick67

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2018, 02:48:07 AM »
Like I have said, rubber brake cups work well and do not look funky. If you want the hole to be smaller just install an O-ring.

I have done this mod a long time ago back in 2009 or 2010, iiric. The idea was concocted by a member of the Crosman Pistol Forum. I think was Mr. Larry, aka BreakfastChef.
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Offline Hoosier Daddy

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2018, 08:01:23 AM »
I saw where you mentioned it before and since you brought it up again, I am going to ask...
 What are you calling "rubber brake cups"?
 I have have been thinking of both disc brake and shoe brakes systems and can not visualize what part you are talking about.

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Offline Wolverineshooter

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2018, 08:27:39 AM »
Interesting idea, will have to try it
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Offline Ol'DeadEye

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2018, 08:46:40 AM »
I saw where you mentioned it before and since you brought it up again, I am going to ask...
 What are you calling "rubber brake cups"?
 I have have been thinking of both disc brake and shoe brakes systems and can not visualize what part you are talking about.

  It's early, I need more coffee
I think this is what he's talking about.   
Drum brake cylinder rebuild kit.   
https://www.amazon.com/Raybestos-WK21-Professional-Cylinder-Repair/dp/B000CP8PH8?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B000CP8PH8
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 08:53:15 AM by Ol'DeadEye »
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Offline Hoosier Daddy

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2018, 09:06:38 AM »
Of course! the Dust boot on a wheel cylinder.
All I could think of was the inner piston seal cup.
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Offline bandg

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2018, 10:30:31 AM »
I haven't used a red dot on any of my air guns and haven't felt a need for anything along these lines but I was thinking how it could be made to work for those who need such a thing.  What about a glass or plastic lens with a crosshair or even just a small dot etched into the lens.  The dot or crosshair might appear to float in the red dot field of view without obscuring the view through the sight but would provide a secondary "floating" aiming point to be seen to align with the standard dot.  Just a thought.
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Offline Rick67

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2018, 11:23:19 AM »
I saw where you mentioned it before and since you brought it up again, I am going to ask...
 What are you calling "rubber brake cups"?
 I have have been thinking of both disc brake and shoe brakes systems and can not visualize what part you are talking about.

  It's early, I need more coffee

Not actually the dust boot, HD sir.

It is this one:



http://www.seekpart.com/product/rubber-cup-for-wheel-brake-3318502.html

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Offline Rick67

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2018, 12:08:40 PM »





This guy and his European cnc machine can make gaskets, seals, etc., of all kinds and specs. Cost was from $1 upwards depending on the size and material.

He made one for me eventually for my RD but I was not able to take pics of it.

This was when I was still in the Philippines:





You can go the caveman approach though, cut a paper, perforate it at the center, and Sharpie it. I am very meticulous and I want my stuff nice and classy.
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Offline Hoosier Daddy

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2018, 12:21:45 PM »
Thanks!
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Offline Rick67

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2018, 12:36:53 PM »
Thanks!

No problem, HD sir.

I was spoiled when I was still in my native country because I had personal access to so many machine shops.

The automotive stores there are ubiquitous, you can find them everywhere.

Super cheap too!

Can you imagine a rubber cup costing a penny?

This reduced RD window does work, btw, so kudos to the OP  8)
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