Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy



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Offline fsa46

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Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« on: February 26, 2018, 03:48:29 PM »
 I've been having a ball shooting my FWB 65 all Winter in the basement with a cheap red dot sight but just felt I should do better.

This is the first time using a red dot sight and I really like it. However, I tried a simple mod that's really  easy and it paid off for me.

I made a paper template of the window and punched a 3/16" hole in the center. I then made a circle using a fine tip magic marker on the window.

What this does, is allow me to put the circle around the target and bring the dot into the circle and on the "bull". Using a red dot sight is instinctive bringing the dot into the center every time. With the circle in the center of the glass, I can consistently bring the dot to the EXACT same location every time.

Once I got accustom to it I instantly put the circle around the target first and then the dot resulting in better accuracy.

It's like having iron sights with a front and back sight to line you up.

This isn't for rapid fire shooting, but, it you're a 10-15 yard target shooter I think you'll like it.

The 3/16" circle works great for the distance I'm shooting but might require a different size at a different distance.

You might want to give it a try, if you do please let me know what you think. The marker come off easy with a Q-Tip and acetone.

Although the circle is crude ( I'm going to take it off and make another ) I'm just having to much fun to change it right now. It looks like it isn't in the center of the glass but it is, I wasn't holding the camera 90 degrees to the window.

I sent this idea to nine of the scope manufactures to see what they think. It's something that can be easily engineered into the window at very little cost that ( I believe ) target shooters and plinkers will like.



« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 11:18:37 AM by fsa46 »
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Offline DameSp

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2018, 05:08:48 PM »
I donít get it...  so you drew a circle around the dot?

Iím not trying to be rude.  Iím just confused.  Maybe I missed something?  Maybe itís just a personal visual thing?  I just donít see how adding a circle would change anything when the red dot is still the intended poi.

Again, not trying to be rude.  If something is going straight over my head please correct me.
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Offline North Country Gal

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2018, 05:45:22 PM »
Somewhere in the distant past, I wrote a post on using red dots for 10 meter shooting. The basic takeaway from having used a variety of red dots at 10 meters is that using red dots that close can have parallax and, in some models, quite a bit of parallax. Very definitely an issue that affected my scores.

The way to solve any parallax issue is to make sure the eye is in the same position behind the optic for every shot. In my case, I accomplished this by placing a peep sight behind the red dot. It did eliminate parallax by forcing me to put my eye in the same position for every shot. It was strictly an experimental setup and not something I still use, but it worked.

Bottom line is drawing a circle to center around the bull and making sure the red dot is in the center is accomplishing the same thing. Sure beats using a peep sight and a red dot to get the same results. Well done, Frank.
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Offline fsa46

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2018, 06:00:26 PM »
I donít get it...  so you drew a circle around the dot?

Iím not trying to be rude.  Iím just confused.  Maybe I missed something?  Maybe itís just a personal visual thing?  I just donít see how adding a circle would change anything when the red dot is still the intended poi.

Again, not trying to be rude.  If something is going straight over my head please correct me.

 I did not take your post as being rude and glad you asked the question.

When using a red dot the dot is not in the center of the window, you have to put it there. If you move your head side to side or up and down the dot moves ( parallax ) in the window. We instinctively put the dot in the center when aiming with a red dot, however, if we're off even a little, the poi is also off.

By making a circle in the center of the window, I always bring the dot in the EXACT same spot in the window. This makes for a more consistent aiming, ( at least in my view ) with every shot.

Although I was shooting respectable rounds without the circle, I see a noticeable improvement with the circle.

This is so easy to do and easy to remove. I would love to see some of you pistol shooters give it a try and let me know what you think. Obviously I can't stress the importance of making the circle in the center of the window.

How to see parallax
Rest your rifle so it is steady without you holding it. Now, look through the scope at a target. With the scope reticle resting on a small target, move your head up and down and from side to side and watch the reticle move in relation to the target. If the scopeís parallax knob has been adjusted correctly, the reticle movement will be very little, but you should be able to see some movement at all times. That movement is parallax, and it demonstrates how important your eye placement is relative to the scope. If your eye moves, you will aim for the target in the wrong place Ė like the fish under water.


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Offline fsa46

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2018, 06:02:28 PM »
Somewhere in the distant past, I wrote a post on using red dots for 10 meter shooting. The basic takeaway from having used a variety of red dots at 10 meters is that using red dots that close can have parallax and, in some models, quite a bit of parallax. Very definitely an issue that affected my scores.

The way to solve any parallax issue is to make sure the eye is in the same position behind the optic for every shot. In my case, I accomplished this by placing a peep sight behind the red dot. It did eliminate parallax by forcing me to put my eye in the same position for every shot. It was strictly an experimental setup and not something I still use, but it worked.

Bottom line is drawing a circle to center around the bull and making sure the red dot is in the center is accomplishing the same thing. Sure beats using a peep sight and a red dot to get the same results. Well done, Frank.

Thanks Joanie, that's EXACTLY what I was talking about.
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Offline ranchibi

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2018, 06:02:47 PM »
Frank, that is brilliant thinking on your part!
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Offline Artie

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2018, 06:04:03 PM »
Very interesting idea, especially in light of Frank and Joanie's past experiments. I believe I will file this tidbit for future reference. I've been considering a low magnification and lightweight red dot (if a reliable one exists) to sub for open sights. These old eyes need a little help I'm afraid.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 11:26:11 PM by Artie »
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Offline DameSp

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2018, 07:54:54 PM »
I donít get it...  so you drew a circle around the dot?

Iím not trying to be rude.  Iím just confused.  Maybe I missed something?  Maybe itís just a personal visual thing?  I just donít see how adding a circle would change anything when the red dot is still the intended poi.

Again, not trying to be rude.  If something is going straight over my head please correct me.

 I did not take your post as being rude and glad you asked the question.

When using a red dot the dot is not in the center of the window, you have to put it there. If you move your head side to side or up and down the dot moves ( parallax ) in the window. We instinctively put the dot in the center when aiming with a red dot, however, if we're off even a little, the poi is also off.

By making a circle in the center of the window, I always bring the dot in the EXACT same spot in the window. This makes for a more consistent aiming, ( at least in my view ) with every shot.

Although I was shooting respectable rounds without the circle, I see a noticeable improvement with the circle.

This is so easy to do and easy to remove. I would love to see some of you pistol shooters give it a try and let me know what you think. Obviously I can't stress the importance of making the circle in the center of the window.

How to see parallax
Rest your rifle so it is steady without you holding it. Now, look through the scope at a target. With the scope reticle resting on a small target, move your head up and down and from side to side and watch the reticle move in relation to the target. If the scopeís parallax knob has been adjusted correctly, the reticle movement will be very little, but you should be able to see some movement at all times. That movement is parallax, and it demonstrates how important your eye placement is relative to the scope. If your eye moves, you will aim for the target in the wrong place Ė like the fish under water.

Ah see, when you put it like that it makes sense.  I only use a red dot on my p17 for quick indoor target practice.  Everything else is either an expensive scope or open sights.

And I just wanted to make sure.  I try to put myself in other people shoes when I reply to threads.  When I read back my reply I felt like you might take it in a condescending manner.  Iím glad you didnít :) 
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Offline Mole2017

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2018, 11:15:38 PM »
The beauty of the reflex/holographic/red dot scopes is that heads up view works so well from the user point of view. But as I understand it, there is potential for some parallax error if the optics aren't really well designed. Better units claim minimal parallax error. Frank's modification is simply just trying to minimize the parallax error that comes from using the red dot from just any eye position that lets you acquire both target and red dot.
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Offline Horatio

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2018, 11:55:50 PM »
The beauty of the reflex/holographic/red dot scopes is that heads up view works so well from the user point of view. But as I understand it, there is potential for some parallax error if the optics aren't really well designed. Better units claim minimal parallax error. Frank's modification is simply just trying to minimize the parallax error that comes from using the red dot from just any eye position that lets you acquire both target and red dot.

It is that ^.

AND, it is bracketing the target circle which will also help put the dot in exactly the center of the bull.
Interesting idea.

To this post, I also donít know if any piece of glass will ever be parallax free. I know my TRS25 isnít. I also wouldnít be surprised if mounting the glass closer or further from your eye will change the parallax.

So the OP changed a red dot from a quick sighting system to something approximating a 2 aperture peep sight. I like it.
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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2018, 01:35:35 AM »
The discontinued(?) Daisy Max View red dot uses a similar setup. Along w/the small circle, it has a crosshair (not actually needed but it's there). It suffers from the lens having having a lot of reflection because it's uncoated (it sold for $10).
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Offline fsa46

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2018, 06:38:43 AM »
I have contacted several scope manufactures to see what the think.

In my opinion, there are three things a close range target shooter would want in a red dot sight,  eliminate parallax, a clear dot ( not fuzzy ) that doesn't cover the target but small enough to fit inside or at least cover the "9" ( not the entire target ) at 10-15 yards and a dot that doesn't wander.

Given these three things and you have an red dot optic that target shooters would love. The reason I say this is because I can see the remarkable improvement in my shooting since I added the circle. If I now had a smaller dot, say a 1 MOA or even a 3/4" MOA , I would be able to be even more precise in my aiming.

 Keep in mind, this is being accomplished with a person that has glaucoma and poor vision. If I seem to be excited about this, you're right. I can't believe something this simple could make that dramatic of a difference.

 


 
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Offline Mole2017

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2018, 08:58:16 AM »
I have contacted several scope manufactures to see what the think.

In my opinion, there are three things a close range target shooter would want in a red dot sight,  eliminate parallax, a clear dot ( not fuzzy ) that doesn't cover the target but small enough to fit inside or at least cover the "9" ( not the entire target ) at 10-15 yards and a dot that doesn't wander.

Given these three things and you have an red dot optic that target shooters would love. The reason I say this is because I can see the remarkable improvement in my shooting since I added the circle. If I now had a smaller dot, say a 1 MOA or even a 3/4" MOA , I would be able to be even more precise in my aiming.


 Keep in mind, this is being accomplished with a person that has glaucoma and poor vision. If I seem to be excited about this, you're right. I can't believe something this simple could make that dramatic of a difference.

 

Some reading online puts the Daisy red-dot at about 3 to 5 MOA, covering about 1" at 25 yards. If you have $300 to $1000 EOTech has "holographic" scopes (essentially a red dot, just way better optics, I think) that get 1 MOA. There's others in between, but the cheapest of the middle ground ones that I considered where something like $40, but still had a pretty big dot.


UPDATE: Guess it's been a while since I shopped. Checking just now, Pyramyd as a number of red/green dot scopes claiming 1/2 MOA near the $40 mark.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 09:08:32 AM by Mole2017 »
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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2018, 10:59:18 AM »
Just be sure the "MOA" being referring to is the actual red dot size and not to the windage and elevation adjustment 'resolution'. But if there's red dots in the $40 range that have a 1 MOA dot size, that's something I'd like to look into. I just started searching for them and am coming up empty, if you saved a link or remember a brand/model of one, I'd appreciate knowing.

Good luck.
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Offline SteveP-52

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2018, 12:03:33 PM »
I have an inexpensive Vokul holographic reflex sight that has that circle dot feature already built in as one of the 4 choices I can use when I turn it on. Mine's a little different than this one but you can at least see the 4 choices, https://www.amazon.com/Vokul-Tactical-Reticle-Reflex-Weaver-Picatinny/dp/B00WQPDA5O/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1519746756&sr=8-4&keywords=vokul+red+dot+sight 

We have a creek behind the house...fairly steep bank with a lot of trees and brush leading down to it and I have that reflex sight mounted on my brush gun. Works better than trying to line up a scope as I can look around and over it, then just snap the red dot on target and not have to try and line up with a scope.
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Offline Frank in Fairfield

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2018, 12:31:23 PM »
Frank,
I have a UTG Tactical Dot Sight.
Red/Green intensified
The reticle has the circle you describe.
If I knew you wanted one of these I would sent it to you.
I still might... ;):
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Offline Mole2017

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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2018, 12:42:36 PM »
Good point, Mark, about the MOA part--I just looked at one that said "1/2 MOA click value 20 yards."

However, here's an inexpensive one that reviewers figure to be 1 or 2 MOA red dot size (and 1/2 MOA click value at 100 yards), dovetail mount: https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Hatsan_1x30_Red_Dot_Sight_Fits_11mm_Dovetail/6662

I like the pyramyd website for the reviews. If the description isn't quite clear, someone often gives a review with their experience. A lot of them are weaver mounts, but there are inexpensive adapters to get them to dovetail (and vice versa, too, I think).



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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2018, 01:01:22 PM »
I've been having a ball shooting my FWB 65 all Winter in the basement with a cheap red dot sight but just felt I should do better.

This is the first time using a red dot sight and I really like it. However, I tried a simple mod that's really  easy and it paid off for me.

I made a paper template of the window and punched a 3/16" hole in the center. I then made a circle using a fine tip magic marker on the window.

What this does, is allow me to put the circle around the target and bring the dot into the circle and on the "bull". Using a red dot sight is instinctive bringing the dot into the center every time. With the circle in the center of the glass, I can consistently bring the dot to the EXACT same location every time.

Once I got accustom to it I instantly put the circle around the target first and then the dot resulting in better accuracy.

It's like having iron sights with a front and back sight to line you up.

This isn't for rapid fire shooting, but, it you're a 10-15 yard target shooter I think you'll like it.

The 3/16" circle works great for the distance I'm shooting but might require a different size at a different distance.

You might want to give it a try, if you do please let me know what you think. The marker come off easy with a Q-Tip and acetone.

Although the circle is crude ( I'm going to take it off and make another ) I'm just having to much fun to change it right now. It looks like it isn't in the center of the glass but it is, I wasn't holding the camera 90 degrees to the window.

I sent this idea to nine of the scope manufactures to see what they think. It's something that can be easily engineered into the window at very little cost that ( I believe ) target shooters and plinkers will like.



I have done this mod on one of my red dots (mine was the round type) too. I just went to a car parts store and bought a brake rubber cup that fits my RD and stuck it on the ocular section. It makes the FOV constricted though but it does refine your aim  :D
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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2018, 01:30:25 PM »
brillinat!!

now to find a decent small rd dot sight.....
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Re: Simple Mod On Red Dot To Improve Accuracy
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2018, 02:34:12 PM »
Good point, Mark, about the MOA part--I just looked at one that said "1/2 MOA click value 20 yards."

However, here's an inexpensive one that reviewers figure to be 1 or 2 MOA red dot size (and 1/2 MOA click value at 100 yards), dovetail mount: https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Hatsan_1x30_Red_Dot_Sight_Fits_11mm_Dovetail/6662

I like the pyramyd website for the reviews. If the description isn't quite clear, someone often gives a review with their experience. A lot of them are weaver mounts, but there are inexpensive adapters to get them to dovetail (and vice versa, too, I think).
That red dot's a good find David. And I agree also re the reviews at Pyramyd- they often help clarify things for me.
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