You're Killing Smalls - My K98 Woes

[Steelontarget]

I took the K98 to the range the other day and the light was still to bad for a chronograph.  However, there was gentleman there with a doppler radar chronograph.

I shot a round by it and it clocked a 10.5 grain pellet at 711 FPS.  That seems a little anemic to me.  So I decided to order a spring kit from Vortek.

BTW, I decided to try some cheap Crosman hollow point 7.9 grain pellets and got better groups with them but didn't get a chance to chronograph them.

What does everyone else think about the pellet speed for the 10.5 grain pellet?  By comparison, my Beeman R9 before the Vortek kit was shooting the same pellet at 761 FPS.

[dan_house]

sounds like you, rather your rifle, needs a tune....

Should be plenty of info on tuning the base rifle its built on. FWIW, adding a heavier spring may actually make it perform worse, or be so violent to shoot its not any fun..... you'll have to balance your speed/power desires against the "shootibillity" of the gun. heavier spring may making cocking more difficult.

And do some research just on making spring guns shoot "better" (a word that'll be defined in a number of ways). many are easy to to do and will add up to making it an even sweeter gun......

oh and keep us informed. Im sure youve given the bug to a few GTA members.....

[Steelontarget]

sounds like you, rather your rifle, needs a tune....

Should be plenty of info on tuning the base rifle its built on. FWIW, adding a heavier spring may actually make it perform worse, or be so violent to shoot its not any fun..... you'll have to balance your speed/power desires against the "shootibillity" of the gun. heavier spring may making cocking more difficult.

And do some research just on making spring guns shoot "better" (a word that'll be defined in a number of ways). many are easy to to do and will add up to making it an even sweeter gun......

oh and keep us informed. Im sure youve given the bug to a few GTA members.....

Mea culpa! Mea culpa!  I can't leave well enough alone. 

You are correct, that speed isn't everything.  If only I could get just a few more FPS out of it....

Besides the couple of imperfections that I ran into, I really like this gun.  It makes me wonder if I should get the 460 that it's based off of.  Okay, I have to get that thought out of my head.  It can cost me too much money.

[Steelontarget]

I installed the Vortek kit and got a replacement 1st stage trigger adjustment screw from Umarex.

Recall that the Crosman Premier Heavy pellet at 10.5 grains chronographed at 711 FPS with the doppler radar chronograph.

I measured the average speed for three different pellets on my Chrony today:

Crosman Premier Hollow Point 7.9 grains - 989.9 FPS average
Crosman Premier Heavy 10.5 grains ------ 843.2 FPS average (That's an improvement of over 132 FPS over the stock spring but I doubt that the Vortek would bring it up that much)
H&N Baracuda Match 10.34 grains -------- 829.4 FPS average

The only reason that I can think that the H&N pellet was slower than the heavier Crosman pellet of 10.5 grains was because the H&N was a tighter fit in the barrel.

The K98 likes the cheap 7.9 grain pellets over the heavier pellets.  I didn't bother trying any match wadcutter ammunition as I'm getting a little less than 1 inch groups at 30 yards.

The Crosman Heavy and the H&N pellets spread out a little more at that distance.  So, I decided to stick with the lighter pellet.  Plus it is so cheap at Wally World.  Everytime I'm in there, I buy out their remaining stock of that pellet.

I used the Vortek spring compressor to install the spring kit and it performed as advertised.  It was the 2nd time that I used it and it makes taking apart a spring gun sort of fun.

 

[Novagun]

Maybe your mates led you astray. Should have right of return if not completely satisfied. If it is not a better shooter than any other German air rifle then it is just a marketing ploy to grab American money. Gamo do it all the time now Diana are in to the same practice.

[Steelontarget]

Maybe your mates led you astray. Should have right of return if not completely satisfied. If it is not a better shooter than any other German air rifle then it is just a marketing ploy to grab American money. Gamo do it all the time now Diana are in to the same practice.

You are correct.  However, I found this rifle to be easier to work on than the Beeman/Weihrauch rifles.

Once I got a couple of bugs worked out on the K98, I really like it.  It's heavier than the Beeman/Weihrauch rifles but not much more than my R1 but weighs less than the FWB 300s.

So the weight issue is a moot point with me.  Besides, I was not satisfied with the Beemans and Weihrauchs; so I "Vorteked" them as well.

Now that I know about the K98's idiosyncrasies, I might keep my eye out for one in .22 caliber. 

[Smaug2]

16.6 FPE still sounds kind of weak. When BB Pelletier tested his in .22, he was getting around 20 FPE.

My Diana 52 (in. 22) is shooting about 20 FPE, and my old Diana 56TH (.177) shot 20 FPE also.

This one has apparently been detuned for that shorter cocking lever. (which was a smart move, IMO)

Still, 16.6 FPE is enough medicine for squirrels out to 30-40 yards. Try H&N Baracuda Hunters and Polymags.

[Steelontarget]

I like to use JBM Ballistics.  Here's the breakdown of some of my air rifles, starting with the most powerful first:

Beeman R1, .22 caliber, 21.04 grains, 639.2 FPS, 19.1 FPE
Diana K98,   .17 caliber,   7.9  grains, 989.2 FPS,  17.2 FPE
Beeman R9, .17 caliber,  10.3 grains,  784.8 FPS,  14.1 FPE
HW 95,        .17 caliber,  10.5 grains,  772.2 FPS,  13.9 FPE

When I shot the Crosman 10.5 grain pellet out of the rifle with the stock spring, it clocked at 711 FPS.  After installing the Vortek spring the same pellet left the muzzle at 843.2 FPS.

I like the CPHP pellets because they are so cheap and so readily available.  In addition, the worst groups that I'm getting with them at 30 yards is about an inch on a breezy day.  I also put the UTG fixed power 4 X 32 Tru-Hunter scope on it. 

With that scope, I discovered, that each mil-dot was worth three mils and not one.  Nevertheless, using 2 dot (6 mils) holdover, I'm able to hit a soup can at 100 yards from the bench about 75% of the time. 

With the pellets being so inexpensive, how can I pass up that kind of fun when it costs so little?  Nevertheless, I might give the polymags a try as I have been curious about them for some time.

You are correct that this rifle has enough energy for squirrels however, I find that due to the muzzle-heavy nature, that offhand shots are a little more difficult than with the Beemans or Weihrauchs.  The 2nd photo is what I did to the 100 yard soup can.

[AG72]

Now that you have had the gun for some time, how do you like it? Build quality and "feeling" of the gun, is it worth the pricetag? I Think it looks supercool!

[Steelontarget]

Now that you have had the gun for some time, how do you like it? Build quality and "feeling" of the gun, is it worth the pricetag? I Think it looks supercool!

After I worked some of the bugs out of the rifle I really like it.  Had my eyesight been better, I would have kept the scope off of it.  Because the front sight, for me, is hard to see, I decided to put a scope on it.

After several scopes I decided to put the UTG 4 X 32 mildot scope on it.  With that scope, I'm able to hit soup cans at 100 yards, from the bench, about 75% of the time.  Now that's fun!

For hunting, I don't mind carrying it even though it's heavy.  With the scope the rifle weighs 10.8 pounds.  My FWB 300S weighs more at 10.92 pounds.  My Beeman R1 weighs a little less at 10.26 pounds.  The difference between these two rifles and the K98 is not so much the weight but where it's distributed. 

The K98 is a little muzzle heavy. I thought I could adapt to that but have to admit that it is a little difficult to make off-hand shots.  So, I have to either be sitting down or brace myself against a tree to make a humane shot at an animal.

Like I said, I had to work out a few bugs.  The major problem was the cocking lever dropping out of the slot when I put the rifle on a rest to sight it in.  I discovered that after the rifle sounded like a PB three times.  The retaining spring wasn't strong enough to hold the cocking lever in place when sitting it down on shooting bags.  Go back to the beginning of this thread to read my fix with adhesive backed velcro.  I've ran close to a couple thousand pellets through the rifle after my velcro fix without anymore problems.

What was amazing to me was how well the cheap Crosman hollow points shot out of the rifle.  After all, I can hit the soup cans at 100 yards with those cheap pellets.

If you were to purchase this rifle, you should, at a minimum do something to ensure that the cocking lever isn't going to drop out of position.  I like my velcro fix, not because I thought of it, but because it's a cheap and easy fix that stays in place after thousands of pellets expended.

My advice to anyone wanting to use this rifle for hunting is to look elsewhere.  It's too muzzle heavy for offhand shooting.  On the other hand, it comes ready for a sling if you want to purchase the replica K98 sling.  I bought one and it's quality is excellent. Having a sling on a hunting rifle is a definite plus.

If you want to purchase the rifle for the novelty aspect, it's an excellent buy.  It's a lot of fun to shoot, either from the bench, supported from a wall, tree or tripod or sitting.

I wanted this rifle in .177 to shoot the heavier 10.5 grain pellets but they didn't perform as well as the light weight versions.  With that said, I would have bought the rifle in .22 if I had to do this over again.  It wouldn't have made much difference but the larger caliber barrel weighs less than the .177 barrel.  It might have helped with the muzzle heavy characteristic (but not by much). 

[Sfttailrdr46]

Still a pretty rifle and like you it reminds me of years ago when you could pick up a good used one in better than fair condition at the Army/Navy surplus store and a couple boxes of ammo for about $40 to $50

[AG72]

Thanx for the info, if i am buying one, i'll do it for the looks! Could hang it at the wall as a piece of art that you can take down and have fun with, try that with your Picasso!

[Sfttailrdr46]

I will Probably buy one as a plinker/conversation piece  since it does look real appearance wise

[Back_Roads]

 I hastily put a scope on mine to shoot a FT match. I did a rough sight in to 50 yards, right before the match discovered I was shooting flat from 20 - 40 yards with 1 mildot hold under, I didnt bother to adjust the scope,bug buster btw, it was  dead on with the dot  so I used that as my aim point, hit 32 out of 54  shots, and did better than a couple in the pcp class. Nice rifle but not what one would  typicaly use for field target.

[Steelontarget]

I hastily put a scope on mine to shoot a FT match. I did a rough sight in to 50 yards, right before the match discovered I was shooting flat from 20 - 40 yards with 1 mildot hold under, I didnt bother to adjust the scope,bug buster btw, it was  dead on with the dot  so I used that as my aim point, hit 32 out of 54  shots, and did better than a couple in the pcp class. Nice rifle but not what one would  typicaly use for field target.

What caliber is your rifle?

[Back_Roads]

 .22

[Zmonster]

I really want one of these, but cant decide 22 or 177. . I wish I could find a used one for a great price. Unfortunately I've missed a few and I haven't seen many pop up either. These threads are making it tough to resist. I don't plan on scoping mine either, and figured it would be fun to plink out to the 100 yard bell.

[Steelontarget]

I really want one of these, but cant decide 22 or 177. . I wish I could find a used one for a great price. Unfortunately I've missed a few and I haven't seen many pop up either. These threads are making it tough to resist. I don't plan on scoping mine either, and figured it would be fun to plink out to the 100 yard bell.

If I had to do it over again, I would have ordered the .22.

The reason that I ordered the .177 was because I really like how the 10.5 grain pellets (Baracudda and Crosman) shoot out of my Beeman and Weihrauch rifles.  I was hoping to get similar results with the K98.  That didn't happen as the rifle performs better with the lighter pellets.  I'm shooting the 7.9 grain CPHP and get lucky with 1/2 inch groups at 30 yards on some occasions.  On my worst days, I'm getting 1 inch groups at the same distance.  The average seems to be 3/4 inch groups.

For hunting and bucking the wind, I like the heavier pellets.  Yet, I don't have much to complain about since I can hit a soup can at 100 yards from the bench about 75% of the time with the 4X32 UTG scope.

Everyone else with the .22 caliber K98 seems to be getting really good groups.  That's one reason I wished I would have got the .22.

The last reason is very minor and may not make much of a difference; almost like trying to weigh a feather.  In a .22 caliber, the exterior dimensions of the barrel remain the same.  That means the only metal taken away with the larger caliber .22.  The barrel would weigh less and the entire rifle not be so muzzle-heavy.

Like I said that wouldn't make much of a difference except in my head but that's my best excuse and I'm sticking to it.

With the concept of a lighter barrel contributing to less muzzle-heavy tendencies in an under-lever rifle, you wonder why they haven't come up with a .25 caliber gun.  After all, the RWS 460, which the K98 is based from, is reputed to be very powerful.  If it's that powerful, then why don't they make it in .25 caliber?

Anyway, my advice is to go for the .22 caliber if you decide to get one.

[Yogi]

What the heck does " You're Killing Smalls" mean?
It has bothered me ever since this thread was posted.

-Yogi

[Sfttailrdr46]

What the heck does " You're Killing Smalls" mean?
It has bothered me ever since this thread was posted.

-Yogi

It's a quote from a movie but at my age I can't remember which one