Condor .25 cal groups before and after choke removal. Updated

[enazle]

So I went into town today and did a little shooting. I shot some 63gr #257's and 51gr bbt's. What I found is the longer heavier 63gr #257 shot tighter groups than the 51gr bbt.  I didn't size any of the 51gr's down to .251 so I will have to go back to the range to see what the results will be?  All my shots were regulated to 3000psi. 

Here are the bullets, one is a Hunters Supply 63gr #257 sized down to .251. The other is a bbt 51gr #253 sized to .253 or .252, these samples shown are rejects.


Here are the before groups shooting the HS#257 before the choke was removed at 80 yards and 30 yards.



Here are the 30 yard groups for the BBT 51gr sized down to .253 and .252 after choke removal.



Here are the 80 yard groups for the BBT 51gr sized down to .253 and .252 after choke removal.



Here are the groups for the Hunters Supply 63gr #257 sized to .251 at 30 yards and 80 yards.

[KnifeMaker]

Yep, as we all know, bullets DON'T like chokes

When you decide to get a real bullet barrel, say from TJ's an have it fitted to your gun, those groups will shrink by a factor of 4 or better. Think one hole at 30 yd, and 1/2" or less at 80 yards.

Knife

[nielsenammo]

Yep, as we all know, bullets DON'T like chokes

When you decide to get a real bullet barrel, say from TJ's an have it fitted to your gun, those groups will shrink by a factor of 4 or better. Think one hole at 30 yd, and 1/2" or less at 80 yards.

Knife

That barrel OK, just need the right ammo

[enazle]

I was hoping for a little better results but I guess I can live with what I got.  I have a TJ's 25 acp liner in my other rifle and these groups are consistent with what I get with it.

[enazle]

The gun was set to shoot the 63gr at 975 fps and the 51gr 1020 fps.

[enazle]

Sized some of the 51gr BBT to .254 and the results are promising at 35yards. Group was within a Quarter. I ran out of air so I'll try again with some sized at .255 to see if Bobs theory is correct. I'll post groups of all the options once I'm through testing.  I could use some help on this Condor trigger. Way to much front end slop for my liking. Anyone know how to take up some of the slack?

[enazle]

I asked Bob what size bullet would work best in my chokeless condor .25 cal.  He told me that with the groove being .255 that should be the optimal bullet dimension. Well Mr. rsterne was correct. I have tried 3 different suppliers and 4 different sizes and found today during testing the 51gr BBT sized to .255 works best.  Below you can see my test at 40 yards of the NSA 60gr .25 cal, the 51gr BBT .254 cal, and the 51gr BBT .255 cal.





I cant express how pleased I am of the modifications and transformation of this rifle! 10 bullets weighed 1.25 ounces or 54 gr each. At 1020 fps that's 124fpe. I can live with that!

[oneshot61]

That worked like a charm. That is a much improved group and some nice power out of your .25. Nice not having a choke in the barrel.

[K.O.]

Nice... but I think you mean .255 groove not .255 land..

I think it is easier to send slugs accurately from a non choked barrel...

but there are .22lr sending slugs just fine thru choked barrels...

with a leade about 95%  of where I feel it needs to be I am getting  .4"- .6" 40 yard groups with BBT 40g at 50 fpe out of my choked barrel Synrod... And it turns out that it is choke in 2 places a slight choke at 15" and then at the muzzle...

Me I want to keep the choke for running pellets...

I keep having to wait to get my choked Berreta .22lr barrel converted for use in a Mrod... but have high hopes for it... at about 50-60 fpe...

[enazle]

Yes you are correct the groove is .255.

Thanks

[enazle]

That worked like a charm. That is a much improved group and some nice power out of your .25. Nice not having a choke in the barrel.

They cut about 3/4" off the length, crowned and lapped the barrel.  I bought an extra baffle from RL for my shroud and returned the stock bushing to its original position, then installed the shroud bushing forward which extended the shroud to 5 baffles. The gun is noticeable quieter than before as well.

[enazle]

Let me tell you how quiet this rifle is.  I was hunting hogs and 10 or 15 turkeys show up eating the corn under my feeder that is 120 yards away.  I shoot at a T-post next to the turkeys 4 times before hitting it and scaring them away.  4 Times!  First 3 shots they never moved like they didn't heard a thing instead looking the other direction where the shot landed.

[nielsenammo]

If your barrel needs .255 I'm surprised my NSA slugs did even that good, they only .250.

[rsterne]

A choke is not necessary for pellets if the bore is tight enough compared to the pellet diameter.... The .25 ACP liner from TJ's (0.250" groove) is deadly with .25 cal JSB Kings or King Heavies.... and his .30 cal airgun barrel, which is 0.300" groove is one of the top barrels available for .30 cal JSB pellets.... Mike's new .217" groove airgun barrel is deadly with many .22 cal pellets, particularly JSB Exacts all the way from 14 gr. to 34 gr....

The problem as I see it, is that many airgun barrels are oversize, and use the choke to make up for that.... JMO.... I have a feeling it might be a leftover from the days of springers where the barrel is made parallel from breech to muzzle, and then pressed into the receiver / hinge block.... Then they choke the muzzle to make sure it's tighter than the diameter at the breech.... Again, JMO.... but it gave airgunners the idea the barrels had to be choked to be accurate with pellets.... I have not seen that to be the case, if the barrel is tight enough and parallel, breech to muzzle....

Bob

[enazle]

If your barrel needs .255 I'm surprised my NSA slugs did even that good, they only .250.

Well they won't go to waste. I think they will be perfect in my TJ's .25ACP 2260 Build.  It has a leak currently so It might be a while before I get to try them.

[K.O.]

The reason I like the choke for pellets is not to make certain pellets better... it does seem to be to me that the choked barrels do well with a broader range of pellets and head sizes...

I actually think with the right sized pellets/rounds a taper lapped parallel barrel is best for accuracy (specially for longer range) but hey everyone has their opinion..

so yeah I agree choked barrels are not necessarily more accurate... they are just more tolerant with many pellets imo... for slugs well that goes a bit deeper into how tight and how abrupt...etc...

I really like the BBT 40g design for my Mrods choke... Blackie is liking them sized .2495 after I did the leade of which there was none... pic below...just hard edge rifling... oh Blackie  did not like the Benjamin domes now he does...  repeatable .4" at 40 as long as you do your part... leade still needs finished...Seems that he is tighter bore and choke than Woodie... final choke is ~ 248 I think... right now I send 5 out @ ~750 fps then repump to 3000 psi... after I finish the leade will be trying a 10# spring in hope of 800-825 fps...

do not know what Woodies leade looks like yet  have not pulled his barrel yet... but with no work it is accurate with pellets and right at 2 moa with the BBT at 700 fps...once I do his leade I think he will be moa to at least 50 yards... and I suspect it will still prefer them sized to .250...

I keep reading the tight MM .22 barrels are very accurate with the right pellets are they choked..? also read they tend to lead up and need frequent cleanin... I have about 100 of the 40g BBT thru both of my .25 Mrods and no leading issues yet...decided light spray silicone lube...

point is each barrel seems to follow general trends for a given maker but in the end each is an individual...and will like what it likes...

If I had the $ I would soon be testing the non choked slower twist( about 1:19)) XL 725 barrel...

in the end only one way to find out...

[K.O.]

I am just glad that there are folks willing to do the work and take the gamble with the smaller bore molds and rifles to find and share what is working for them...

[K.O.]

Let me tell you how quiet this rifle is.  I was hunting hogs and 10 or 15 turkeys show up eating the corn under my feeder that is 120 yards away.  I shoot at a T-post next to the turkeys 4 times before hitting it and scaring them away.  4 Times!  First 3 shots they never moved like they didn't heard a thing instead looking the other direction where the shot landed.

thats nice considering fpe

[enazle]

Here is the final product. Cut the leade to fit the .255 cal 51gr BBT's tonight. Hopefully in the morning I can test it again for accuracy.

[KnifeMaker]

Good luck on the testing. I can never sleep the night before testing. I look forward to it too much I guess. 

If that is a laser on the front of you gun, how do you like it?

If it is a light, move it to the underside of your gun. It will stop flair on your scope when there is moisture in the air when night hunting.

Knife