Big bore break barrels?????



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Offline HectorMedina

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Re: Big bore break barrels?????
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2016, 12:50:51 PM »

I've a lot of perspective on accuracy and slow with heavy bullets. Another passion of mine is muzzleloaders... one of which is a volunteer, a replica of an 1860's thereabouts "military" rifle that it and the gun it replicated, the Whitworth, designed by Joseph Whitworth... who also figured out how to categorize screws so that there was some conformity in construction.. anyway... his guns shot 500 plus grain .451 caliber bullets that are accurate today out to 1,000 yards.. and very similar to many long range cartridge rifles of those hefty bullets that shoot at such ranges routine. Trajectory can of these projectiles can be measured in the 10's of yards on the way to target, but they strike in the black more often than not with a good shoulder behind the trigger... long, heavy, and slow.

Airguns.... I shoot the heaviest bullets I can find, not so much for wind, but for penetration and carry... something I just got used to with with my muzzleloaders. Accuracy lies with the shooter, and if you can get a heavy bullet to accurately leave your bore, IN MY OPINION, it will be more accurate downrange than a lighter bullet.

Now that being said, I just bought a mold for my Hatsan .30 breakaction that drops a 68 grain pellet/bullet actually and I'm hoping this helps helps offset the .11 per pellet one has to fork over for the .30 or 9mm. I'm curious what the drop in velocity would be from a 44.75 grain pellet to one of 68 grains.

Much Aloha..  8)

Thanks for those comments!

Can you please tell me which mould you bought and what OD you expect your castings to come out at, or if you will be sizing, which diameter you will be sizing to?

I am assuming that as the knowledgeable shooter that you clearly are, you have slugged your barrel to order the right mould.

TIA!




HM

Off topic.- Are you casting the hex section bullets for your Whitworth? :-)
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Offline Rattus58

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Re: Big bore break barrels?????
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2016, 02:39:11 PM »

I've a lot of perspective on accuracy and slow with heavy bullets. Another passion of mine is muzzleloaders... one of which is a volunteer, a replica of an 1860's thereabouts "military" rifle that it and the gun it replicated, the Whitworth, designed by Joseph Whitworth... who also figured out how to categorize screws so that there was some conformity in construction.. anyway... his guns shot 500 plus grain .451 caliber bullets that are accurate today out to 1,000 yards.. and very similar to many long range cartridge rifles of those hefty bullets that shoot at such ranges routine. Trajectory can of these projectiles can be measured in the 10's of yards on the way to target, but they strike in the black more often than not with a good shoulder behind the trigger... long, heavy, and slow.

Airguns.... I shoot the heaviest bullets I can find, not so much for wind, but for penetration and carry... something I just got used to with with my muzzleloaders. Accuracy lies with the shooter, and if you can get a heavy bullet to accurately leave your bore, IN MY OPINION, it will be more accurate downrange than a lighter bullet.

Now that being said, I just bought a mold for my Hatsan .30 breakaction that drops a 68 grain pellet/bullet actually and I'm hoping this helps helps offset the .11 per pellet one has to fork over for the .30 or 9mm. I'm curious what the drop in velocity would be from a 44.75 grain pellet to one of 68 grains.

Much Aloha..  8)

Thanks for those comments!

Can you please tell me which mould you bought and what OD you expect your castings to come out at, or if you will be sizing, which diameter you will be sizing to?

I am assuming that as the knowledgeable shooter that you clearly are, you have slugged your barrel to order the right mould.

TIA!




HM

Off topic.- Are you casting the hex section bullets for your Whitworth? :-)
I actually have the Volunteer that has Henry Rifling... however... an attorney friend of mine has a Whitworth Hexagonal and shoots my .451 490 grain bullets with little loss of any kind of accuracy. That is the genius of lead, and how amazingly close to velocity you can still get with the Whitworth and conical bullets. Sam Fadala tested the Whitworth with the same bullet I shoot unsized at .457 (Lyman Mold 457121) with superb accuracy. I bore sized mine to actually on the Volunteer, .452.

As to the Hatsan bullet, I got it from NOE... http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=374_378&products_id=3301&osCsid=ohgmu2q9evkiq64bgl7fpqk2p2

I don't know yet what the bore diameter is so haven't looked to sizing options just yet.

Aloha,

Tom 8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 03:09:09 PM by Rattus58 »
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Offline Rattus58

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Re: Big bore break barrels?????
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2016, 03:05:23 PM »
Wow.. 68 grain will be quite the thumper !

Haha.... Could be... that's what I'm hoping anyway... Someone posted on the testing the Hatsan thread that he was getting 565 fps with the 45 grain JSB and 545 fps with the 50 grain JSB. Willfully disregarding potential aerodynamic and mechanical foibles to such thinking, extending that 20 fps loss per 5 grains would translate to a 72 fps loss... (68-50=18 divided by 5 = 3.6 times 20 = 72 from 545 = 473 give yourself some slack =460 fps) or...

grains   68
speed   460
Bullet Diameter   0.3
KE   31.94316794
Momentum   0.138883339
momentum_1   1.388833389
Taylor   1.340571429

which is what I'm anticipating if it don't become a barrel obstuction... :) ...  Not to mention the economy of pouring my own lead... :D

Much Aloha... 8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 03:15:04 PM by Rattus58 »
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Offline packard8

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Re: Big bore break barrels?????
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2016, 03:40:21 PM »
Wow.. 68 grain will be quite the thumper !

Haha.... Could be... that's what I'm hoping anyway... Someone posted on the testing the Hatsan thread that he was getting 565 fps with the 45 grain JSB and 545 fps with the 50 grain JSB. Willfully disregarding potential aerodynamic and mechanical foibles to such thinking, extending that 20 fps loss per 5 grains would translate to a 72 fps loss... (68-50=18 divided by 5 = 3.6 times 20 = 72 from 545 = 473 give yourself some slack =460 fps) or...

grains   68
speed   460
Bullet Diameter   0.3
KE   31.94316794
Momentum   0.138883339
momentum_1   1.388833389
Taylor   1.340571429

which is what I'm anticipating if it don't become a barrel obstuction... :) ...  Not to mention the economy of pouring my own lead... :D

Much Aloha... 8)

If you go to Chairgun Pro and fudge the numbers for the JSB .30 pellet to 67gr @ 460 FPS you get 31.4 FPE at the muzzle, 28.8 FPE @ 15 yds. Just an approximation, but it shows a 92% retention of energy at short range and a 1.75" drop @ 15 yds. Of course this doesn't account for the projectile design and BC. If you ever "go into production" on the project, I'd buy a few just to play with ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 03:45:07 PM by packard8 »
  • Tulsa OK
Dianas: 52 .177, 48 .22, 34 .22, 34 .177, 34P .177, 350 Magnum .177, 240 .177
HW95 .22
Sheridan Blue Streak .20 (1972)
Benjamins: 392, M-rod .25, P-rod, Trail NP2 "Elite Stealth" .177 Wood
Hatsans: AT44-10 .22, 135QE .30, 135's .177 & .25, 100X's .177, .22 & .25 (X2), 1000X .25, Edge .25, 200S .22
Noricas: Black Eagles .22 & .177, Spider GRS .22, Dragon GRS 22, Dragon GRS Max .22
Mendoza RM 600 .22
Webleys: Patriot .177 (X2), Tomahawks .177 & .22, VMX .20, Cub .22
Stoeger X20S .22

Offline Rattus58

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Re: Big bore break barrels?????
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2016, 04:16:03 PM »
Wow.. 68 grain will be quite the thumper !

Haha.... Could be... that's what I'm hoping anyway... Someone posted on the testing the Hatsan thread that he was getting 565 fps with the 45 grain JSB and 545 fps with the 50 grain JSB. Willfully disregarding potential aerodynamic and mechanical foibles to such thinking, extending that 20 fps loss per 5 grains would translate to a 72 fps loss... (68-50=18 divided by 5 = 3.6 times 20 = 72 from 545 = 473 give yourself some slack =460 fps) or...

grains   68
speed   460
Bullet Diameter   0.3
KE   31.94316794
Momentum   0.138883339
momentum_1   1.388833389
Taylor   1.340571429

which is what I'm anticipating if it don't become a barrel obstuction... :) ...  Not to mention the economy of pouring my own lead... :D

Much Aloha... 8)

If you go to Chairgun Pro and fudge the numbers for the JSB .30 pellet to 67gr @ 460 FPS you get 31.4 FPE at the muzzle, 28.8 FPE @ 15 yds. Just an approximation, but it shows a 92% retention of energy at short range and a 1.75" drop @ 15 yds. Of course this doesn't account for the projectile design and BC. If you ever "go into production" on the project, I'd buy a few just to play with ;)

Ahhhhh Chairgun... had completely forgot about them ....  ;D  Thank you.... I'd be happy to share some with you for you to try out as soon as I get the mold... :D

Aloha.... 8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 04:53:41 PM by Rattus58 »
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Offline Rattus58

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Re: Big bore break barrels?????
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2016, 05:09:05 PM »
Wow.. 68 grain will be quite the thumper !

Haha.... Could be... that's what I'm hoping anyway... Someone posted on the testing the Hatsan thread that he was getting 565 fps with the 45 grain JSB and 545 fps with the 50 grain JSB. Willfully disregarding potential aerodynamic and mechanical foibles to such thinking, extending that 20 fps loss per 5 grains would translate to a 72 fps loss... (68-50=18 divided by 5 = 3.6 times 20 = 72 from 545 = 473 give yourself some slack =460 fps) or...

grains   68
speed   460
Bullet Diameter   0.3
KE   31.94316794
Momentum   0.138883339
momentum_1   1.388833389
Taylor   1.340571429

which is what I'm anticipating if it don't become a barrel obstuction... :) ...  Not to mention the economy of pouring my own lead... :D

Much Aloha... 8)

If you go to Chairgun Pro and fudge the numbers for the JSB .30 pellet to 67gr @ 460 FPS you get 31.4 FPE at the muzzle, 28.8 FPE @ 15 yds. Just an approximation, but it shows a 92% retention of energy at short range and a 1.75" drop @ 15 yds. Of course this doesn't account for the projectile design and BC. If you ever "go into production" on the project, I'd buy a few just to play with ;)

I went to Lee Precision website (http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/hand-gun-bullet-molds/)  and looked at Pistol molds and their BC for the various bullets they offer.  Being that a round ball is very similar to the pellet, and the even modest trashcan bullet is a .07, better, I plugged in a .1000 Ballistic Coefficient and got some surprising numbers down range. Using even a .08 Ballistic Coefficient with this bullet... ASSUMING IT LEAVES THE BARREL AS CONJECTURED..... A Plus Plus....  ;D

Thanks for the reminder !!

Aloha,

Tom 8)
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Offline packard8

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Re: Big bore break barrels?????
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2016, 05:23:23 PM »
 
I went to Lee Precision website (http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/hand-gun-bullet-molds/)  and looked at Pistol molds and their BC for the various bullets they offer.  Being that a round ball is very similar to the pellet, and the even modest trashcan bullet is a .07, better, I plugged in a .1000 Ballistic Coefficient and got some surprising numbers down range. Using even a .08 Ballistic Coefficient with this bullet... ASSUMING IT LEAVES THE BARREL AS CONJECTURED..... A Plus Plus....  ;D

Thanks for the reminder !!

Aloha,

Tom 8)

The real world results will be interesting for sure. I saw a utube vid of a guy hitting silhouettes with a .45 ACP (230gr @ 750 FPS?) from as far as 200 yds. He said his holdover was about 4 feet at that range :o.

Cheers,

John
  • Tulsa OK
Dianas: 52 .177, 48 .22, 34 .22, 34 .177, 34P .177, 350 Magnum .177, 240 .177
HW95 .22
Sheridan Blue Streak .20 (1972)
Benjamins: 392, M-rod .25, P-rod, Trail NP2 "Elite Stealth" .177 Wood
Hatsans: AT44-10 .22, 135QE .30, 135's .177 & .25, 100X's .177, .22 & .25 (X2), 1000X .25, Edge .25, 200S .22
Noricas: Black Eagles .22 & .177, Spider GRS .22, Dragon GRS 22, Dragon GRS Max .22
Mendoza RM 600 .22
Webleys: Patriot .177 (X2), Tomahawks .177 & .22, VMX .20, Cub .22
Stoeger X20S .22

Offline Rattus58

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Re: Big bore break barrels?????
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2016, 06:06:35 PM »
 
I went to Lee Precision website (http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/hand-gun-bullet-molds/)  and looked at Pistol molds and their BC for the various bullets they offer.  Being that a round ball is very similar to the pellet, and the even modest trashcan bullet is a .07, better, I plugged in a .1000 Ballistic Coefficient and got some surprising numbers down range. Using even a .08 Ballistic Coefficient with this bullet... ASSUMING IT LEAVES THE BARREL AS CONJECTURED..... A Plus Plus....  ;D

Thanks for the reminder !!

Aloha,

Tom 8)

The real world results will be interesting for sure. I saw a utube vid of a guy hitting silhouettes with a .45 ACP (230gr @ 750 FPS?) from as far as 200 yds. He said his holdover was about 4 feet at that range :o.

Cheers,

John
Haha..... yup.... Knows all about that... for a time there, a few of us "Dirty White Boys" (White Muzzleloader Cult types.. ;D) was trying to sight in for 200 yard zero....  well... all is well and good with hitting the black at 200 yards.... just at 25 yards, if you was huntin... you'd pretty much be aiming at its feet... ;D....
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Offline Leonard

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Re: Big bore break barrels?????
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2019, 09:17:04 AM »
For close range I love my Hatsan 130s, under $200.00/199.00 I could not be happier. Within
30 yards it's dead on actuate and slaps with a hard slap ! Perfect for my backyard on a creek greenbelt. Skunks and possum's are quick kill with this affordable air rifle.
Poor man's dream 😆
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 09:21:19 AM by Leonard »
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Offline Yogi

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Re: Big bore break barrels?????
« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2019, 02:05:14 PM »
The down-range power is pretty awesome.  I shoot a .25 Hatsan 95QE and it destroys squirrels; it isn't a hyper-velocity springer but Gets The Job Done..  Perhaps the most telling YouTube review I've seen of the .30 is Rick Eutsler's.... but I haven't read anything bad by people that own one here on the GTA.

I also look at things this way: I've killed a lot of pest birds using sling-shots with 1/4" and 5/16" steel ball ammo.  They were moving a lot slower than the .30 caliber pellets coming from the big-bore Hatsan, and ammo weight is comparable.

Think of this: a springer carrying 20+ FPE at 50 yards, and even moving at slower speeds, it doesn't decelerate as fast because of all that mass.  Given how my .25 bucks the wind, the .30 is sure to do even better. 

I just took a peek at the reviews on PA- lots of happy owners- let that be your guide.   "A pellet in motion tends to stay in motion"  LOL





well said , it seems like everyone thinks a slow projectile is useless, but a slow 30 cal round will do some damage, all the energy is imparted  on target

I've a lot of perspective on accuracy and slow with heavy bullets. Another passion of mine is muzzleloaders... one of which is a volunteer, a replica of an 1860's thereabouts "military" rifle that it and the gun it replicated, the Whitworth, designed by Joseph Whitworth... who also figured out how to categorize screws so that there was some conformity in construction.. anyway... his guns shot 500 plus grain .451 caliber bullets that are accurate today out to 1,000 yards.. and very similar to many long range cartridge rifles of those hefty bullets that shoot at such ranges routine. Trajectory can of these projectiles can be measured in the 10's of yards on the way to target, but they strike in the black more often than not with a good shoulder behind the trigger... long, heavy, and slow.

Airguns.... I shoot the heaviest bullets I can find, not so much for wind, but for penetration and carry... something I just got used to with with my muzzleloaders. Accuracy lies with the shooter, and if you can get a heavy bullet to accurately leave your bore, IN MY OPINION, it will be more accurate downrange than a lighter bullet.

Now that being said, I just bought a mold for my Hatsan .30 breakaction that drops a 68 grain pellet/bullet actually and I'm hoping this helps helps offset the .11 per pellet one has to fork over for the .30 or 9mm. I'm curious what the drop in velocity would be from a 44.75 grain pellet to one of 68 grains.

Much Aloha..  8)

My Norton has Whitworth sized fasteners.  What a PITA! ;) ;) 8)

-Y
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Offline packard8

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Re: Big bore break barrels?????
« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2019, 02:53:02 PM »
My Norton has Whitworth sized fasteners.  What a PITA! ;) ;) 8)

-Y

Years later I still miss my 1973 850 Commando!
  • Tulsa OK
Dianas: 52 .177, 48 .22, 34 .22, 34 .177, 34P .177, 350 Magnum .177, 240 .177
HW95 .22
Sheridan Blue Streak .20 (1972)
Benjamins: 392, M-rod .25, P-rod, Trail NP2 "Elite Stealth" .177 Wood
Hatsans: AT44-10 .22, 135QE .30, 135's .177 & .25, 100X's .177, .22 & .25 (X2), 1000X .25, Edge .25, 200S .22
Noricas: Black Eagles .22 & .177, Spider GRS .22, Dragon GRS 22, Dragon GRS Max .22
Mendoza RM 600 .22
Webleys: Patriot .177 (X2), Tomahawks .177 & .22, VMX .20, Cub .22
Stoeger X20S .22

Offline packard8

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Re: Big bore break barrels?????
« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2019, 02:54:55 PM »
For close range I love my Hatsan 130s, under $200.00/199.00 I could not be happier. Within
30 yards it's dead on actuate and slaps with a hard slap ! Perfect for my backyard on a creek greenbelt. Skunks and possum's are quick kill with this affordable air rifle.
Poor man's dream 😆

They do have a satisfying  THWACK on impact!
  • Tulsa OK
Dianas: 52 .177, 48 .22, 34 .22, 34 .177, 34P .177, 350 Magnum .177, 240 .177
HW95 .22
Sheridan Blue Streak .20 (1972)
Benjamins: 392, M-rod .25, P-rod, Trail NP2 "Elite Stealth" .177 Wood
Hatsans: AT44-10 .22, 135QE .30, 135's .177 & .25, 100X's .177, .22 & .25 (X2), 1000X .25, Edge .25, 200S .22
Noricas: Black Eagles .22 & .177, Spider GRS .22, Dragon GRS 22, Dragon GRS Max .22
Mendoza RM 600 .22
Webleys: Patriot .177 (X2), Tomahawks .177 & .22, VMX .20, Cub .22
Stoeger X20S .22

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