Do You Need More Power .

[bubba zanetti]

My answer is No. I usually grab the AG needed for the game I am after. Most of my shooting is paper, cans, or assorted targets and FT anyway.

I own and hunted with a Lyman Deerstalker .54 cal Flintlock for a bit. I bought that muzzleloader in my early 20's to try on deer as I know nothing at the time on black powder and to help hone my 10m shooting skills. Long and short, all the reading, shooting and practicing taught me quite a bit on using what would be considered old but very powerful technology. As a result, there are many parallels with AG power and BP power. Some of you have already alluded to this, but when using a AG you have to basically dump your basic modern firearms approach as that was what helped me get the hang of my flintlock. I was never going to make that flintlock into something it wasn't. In a sense, I sometimes see that with AG's, especially springers. I could charge the Lyman with 110-120 grains of 2FF and not only did it not group very well (3 inch groups at 80 yards) It about ripped my shoulder off. I dropped it to 80 grains and I got nice clover leafs at 80 yards. That was with round balls and minnie's . Oh, and it was much fun to shot at that power level.

I loaned the Lyman to my older brother as he stills hunts pretty religiously and I taught him all I knew and gave him my Sam Fadala books to read too. Many whitetails have fallen at his hands with the Lyman.

Anyway, I know this is a AG forum, but I always smile when a springer owner reduces their FPS by a few with a Vortek kits and then say how much more pleasant to shoot and ACCURATE their rifle has become. Something to meditate on IMO.

BZ

[voldar]

K.O., the question was if after you buy a gun, you want to mod it to be more powerful or not. My answer was No. Buying a 20 fpe and modding it to 35 fpe is a nonsense. Buy a 35 fpe from the beginning, you'll save some money. I am not arguing about buying a 50 fpe vs a 12 fpe, because it's not the question was asked. I only said that not every time power means accuracy. In my RAR the CCI Standard is more accurate than the CCI Stinger, even though one has a 1070 fps and the other is 1630 fps, so the later has more fpe. Same is for the AG, up to a certain point.

[stonykill]

Itso the kill zone on most small game is about .5"  which does not have to have perfect conditions..?


so guys what have you hunted wh means at 50 fpe I can judge drift with much more certainty than when shooting with 12 fpe  handle worse conditions...

 the difference between a 5 mph and 7 mph  wind is hard to judge,  with ~12 fpe (14.3g @625) @ the difference in aim point between the two is almost an inch...

with ~50 fpe  (25.4g @ 950fps) that difference is only a third of an inch...

at conditions the only specifics by a low fpe hunter I have seen are Toms(stonykill)

There are things being thrown out most are general and not specific that's the story...

the smart shooter... well I did hunt with ~ 17 fpe and if you check my past post you will see I kept most of my shots within 20-30 yards less if wind... but there is better ammo now days than the old green tin Benji .22...

P.S. what??



Not once have I said that 12 fpe hunting is not possible what I have said is that with those same skills (like when not to take the shot) 50 fpe is one heck of a lot more useful in real hunting in many conditions and can be used in most of the same situations as the 12 fpe rifle... and that is reality...

is 50 fpe nessasary in Toms hunting obviously not

but is 50 fpe unusable in Toms hunting obviously not...

I hear the argument that it is just as dead with 12fpe and 50 is overkill in many threads: well the below pic is Mom in early 1962 just preggers with me in the big bend forest of East Texas (Etoile to be exact) and those squirrels where taken the same way many still do : with a .22 rimfire... But hey what do those folk know...




off topic a touch...
Tom I hope I get just a bit lucky and somehow get a bit rich... cause I think you are a kindred spirit and would love to show you some of my old stompin grounds such as the Jarbidge, Ruby, Desolation an Humboldt wilderness areas... places that in the 70s and 80s it was easy to feel the time/spirit of the Paiute and Shoshone because you could go months without seeing any one... but are now more traveled in a more crowded world by those seeking to get away for a while...

  long before I got back into air guns, I hunted nutters with a 22wmr. Because that gun is just  a tack driver. Many use a shotgun to nutter hunt. Just to help keep the honest perspective here.

  There has been a lot of generalazation here. I try to be specific, you are better at being specific and making your point. This is making this thread interesting.

  Heck, I'd like to somehow become wealthy as well. Do some hunting with ag's together on both sides of the country. I'm positive I would learn from you, and hopefully you from me.

   I wonder if...... part of the reason you and I understand these things is we are into low dollar weapons and modding them, and s such we don't really feel the pull to go out and buy some expensive weapon, but work with what we have, to make it better than it was. Which ultimately means a lot of R&D and field time testing our work.

   Interesting thread

[anuthabubba]

Some examples of low power airgun pesting/hunting. Mostly open sights.

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=104237.msg988953#msg988953

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=104466.msg988949#msg988949

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=104384.msg987913#msg987913

[MicErs]

I guess I have issue with it sounding like it being suggested having more fpe is only because a lack of skill and I much disagree with the statement...

I don't know to whom you are responding.  I did not see the post in this thread which implied that.

I can read sign very very well but in the desert  it is better to know where the game will be at a given time of the  day and a given time of the year...

Native Americans have been killing all manner of game at distances measured in feet over the entire continent for  many thousands of years.  They do this by understanding things most of us never needed to understand because of the tools we bring to the game.  Neandertal hunted with atlatl's and spears and apparently did not have archery technology.

So in the places hunted why can you not use the same 50fpe air rifle..? 

There is no reason that you can't and again, perhaps you will cite the offending post?

so please quit insinuating that recognizing that fpe does matter at times is only a lack of skill...

The offending post?


It is simply practical to bring the best tool you can to the hunt.  I don't think anyone here has suggested that it is a lack of skill to hunt with any air rifle.  On the other hand there is no doubt that it is more exacting to take a ground hog, or similar middle sized game with a 12 FPE rifle than with a 50 FPE rifle.  What is not implied and what I have not seen implied here is that the 50 FPE shooter is somehow less skilled than they hunter who goes afield with a 12 FPE springer.


The obverse is also true.  It is much easier to achieve hunting accuracy with a good PCP rifle than it is with a good spring rifle.  That means that effective range is generally increased with a good PCP rifle, in the hands of a good marksman, over the effective range of a spring rifle in the same hands.  That is pretty much indisputable at this point.  Again I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the choice of rifle implies something about the knowledge / skill of the hunter.


I personally taken white tails at distances measured in feet with an old recurve bow back in the 60's.  That does not stop me from taking out a .270 and busting them at 200 yards.  I think both cases are completely legit, but I do believe that the hunter who has never learned to take a deer by ambush hunting at ten feet has missed one of the great satisfactions of life.  You have to do it to prove yourself capable.

[K.O.]

K.O., the question was if after you buy a gun, you want to mod it to be more powerful or not. My answer was No. Buying a 20 fpe and modding it to 35 fpe is a nonsense. Buy a 35 fpe from the beginning, you'll save some money. I am not arguing about buying a 50 fpe vs a 12 fpe, because it's not the question was asked. I only said that not every time power means accuracy. In my RAR the CCI Standard is more accurate than the CCI Stinger, even though one has a 1070 fps and the other is 1630 fps, so the later has more fpe. Same is for the AG, up to a certain point.

"

Are you ok with Factory air guns .
For general shooting . 
Or want MORE POWER .
To see things Explode ?

"
So well no it is not to see things explode but yes I want more power than factory guns...  and I do not do springers/nps because of it...they have probs as is...


"
 Buying a 20 fpe and modding it to 35 fpe is a nonsense. Buy a 35 fpe from the beginning, you'll save some money.
"

sorry wrong if you know what you are doing and are handy with tools...and the only pumper (which is my path) that has 50 fpe is $1200 and a is a high Quality custom limited run patterned after the one of a kind by Sensei  Bob Sterne...

I can build a low budget version out of mainly Crosman parts that originally had trouble pushing 7.9g .177 to 650 fps... I just need to add an external tank and gage to my MK1322 build... as an ACP(air conserving pumper) it would take a lot of pumps to fill but after a 40-50fpe(.25) shot only15-25 pumps to recharge... price about $150-$200 dollars.... as it is(no ext tank) that build runs with a steroid Benji pumper for less and has some advantages that the Benji does not...

"
 I only said that not every time power means accuracy.
"

Of course, to use that fpe you have to know what you are doing... and that includes how you are getting that fpe...But fpe used right is more accurate and that is simple physics... especially at 50-60-100 fpe and below...

"
 In my RAR the CCI Standard is more accurate than the CCI Stinger, even though one has a 1070 fps and the other is 1630 fps, so the later has more fpe. Same is for the AG, up to a certain point.
"

I understand a list of possible and likely reasons why and can list them... learning them yourself if you do not know why might be usefull to you...

One of the minor compared to other reasons could be that nice hammer forged free floated barrel has a harmonics prob with the stingers...

The other probs are with how that greater fpe is being accomplished...

[Charles Outdoors]

    Yall lost me.

[39M]

It depends on the gun, and it's intended purpose. For example, I want to buy a 2400kt. If all I ever use it for is plinkin cans and paper, and maybe dispatching some locust and the occasional rat, then I shouldn't need any extra power. But if I decide to use it on more wary game, then yeah I'd like to beef it up a bit.
I chose the 2400 for things it has to offer, excluding high power. If there were another gun with the same characteristics at a similar price with more power, I most likely would choose it.

[vestlenning]

Anyway, I know this is a AG forum, but I always smile when a springer owner reduces their FPS by a few with a Vortek kits and then say how much more pleasant to shoot and ACCURATE their rifle has become. Something to meditate on IMO.

Please explain.

[nced]

When I buy a gun I do my homework and I chose the one that fils my expectations. I use my NP2 for shooting and soon to be hunting at 25-50 yards. If I want to shoot something at longer distance, is not an airgun I am going to use. To kill a hare you need only 5 - 6 fpe. The English do this all the time using 11-12 fpe (at the muzzle) airguns. Just check YouTube and you'll see nice hunting videos at more than 40 m / 45 yards with 11 fpe airguns.

now throw in a good wind and that distance shrinks radically part of the story does not make a whole truth...

It's kinda interesting to me that at the 2014 National field target match in Heflin, AL the match high score knocking down 110 out of 120 targets was done by a shooter in the <12fpe WFTF class. That was the usual 2 day match where 60 targets were shot each day and the targets ranged from 10 yards to 55 yards with killzones from 3/8" dia to perhaps 1 1/2" (not sure what the 55 yard killzones were). The first day was windy with 30 mph gusts and the shots were taken up hill, down hill, across revines, down paths cut into the woods, some forced kneeling and standing shots.....yet a shooter shooting "Nerf Gun power" still knocked down about 92% of the targets shot at!!

Anywhoo....I do know that even a 12fpe shooter has more than enough energy to take humanely drop a nutter at 50 yards with a proper hit. Regardless of the power of an airarm the limiting factor is that lead badminton birdie called PELLET that likes to sail in the wind, however, evidently........there are those who have learned the art of taming wind drift unlike myself! At the 2010 National field target match I attended the first day was windy with gusts like at Heflin and I was squadded with a HFTF class <12fpe springer shooter who used to post as "Johnny Piston" and I watched in awe as he was "cheating the wind" that first day. He would study the motion of the leaves on the tree, get into a sitting position, hold off into the wind, squeeze the trigger of his TX200SR, and I'd watch the target fall as the wind blew the .177 cal pellet through the killzone!

Anywhoo.......if I were to do most of my hunting at 50+ yards I wouldn't  be using my .177 R9 or HW95........I'd either "bite the pellet" and put up with the expense and hassles of a .22 cal PCP, or most likely.....use a nice Kimber bolt action rimfire with RWS sub sonic ammo. LOL....the Kimber wouldn't cost much more than a good PCP once all the PCP "life support equipment" is bought!  My brother recently ordered a .177 Maurauder for squirrel hunting and the gun with pump and adapter cost him about $750! LOL....he has taken over a thousand grey and fox squirrels with his .177 R9 over the years but he still felt the need for more!

[mcoulter]

OK, this has been an interesting thread  but I had to ask myself "Can you repeat the question again?"

Are you ok with Factory air guns .
For general shooting . 
Or want MORE POWER .
To see things Explode ?

To me guns are tools.  When you have a specific task, find the right tool to get the job done efficiently.  But the flip-side is that guns are a heck of a lot of fun too.  No right or wrong answer here as long as we are (1) SAFE, (2) RESPECTFUL, and (3)  ACT AS GOOD AMBASSADORS OF THE SPORT WE LOVE.

My personal air rifles include a < 12 fpe RWS 34 and a > 30fpe Hatsan 135 so I understand and appreciate each end of spectrum!