Proposed change to the 50' any position match?

[Kirk B]

I have tried here to do nothing but encourage participation
in these forum matches. If my comments in trying to do that
have offended anyone please accept my apologizes.

If my comments and participation are not welcome, I will gladly
refrain from taking the time to do both.

I'm not sure why you would think any of this to be the case Bill. Your comments and participation to date have been most helpful and appreciated.

Speaking as a "novice" myself, I can't imagine anyone being offended by such a term. It's about as far from insulting as I can imagine. If you're talking about distinguishing expert shooters from other classes, you will have to call the other classes something. If people are going to be offended by the term "novice" they will be offended by anything and will most likely not get along in any kind of group participation. I don't think you guys should have to try that hard to avoid hurting someone's feelings. I got the humor in Phill's "you can't shoot" division comment. It made me laugh.

[Brushy Bill]

That's cool Spook. Glad you saw some humor in it.
I didn't,, my mistake I guess.
Keep on shootin brother.

[Kirk B]

Just to be clear, I meant no criticism of your post Bill. I just didn't want you to think your comments were unwelcome when just the opposite is true. I know I've benefitted from your participation here.

I've spent a lot of time on various forums (muscle cars, drag racing, bbq, etc...) and the one thing I've learned about all of them is that someone's message may not always come across right in type. Using the little smilies helps to let someone know when you're kidding but that doesn't always work out either. Because of that I try to give someone the benefit of the doubt when I read a comment that could be questionable. Seems like we have a good bunch of folks on this forum so if I read something like that here I assume it's good natured.

Anyway, back on topic... Do we think that incorporating sighters into the current matches is a good idea? And a far as differentiating between expert, novice etc, do we have enough participation to make it worthwhile?

[Brushy Bill]

Trust me, no offense is taken.

Personally Spook, I think it is silly not to have a sighter
bull on a target. Smallbore targets has them, both
indoor and outdoor, 10 meter rifle has them.
They are more helpful on an outdoor target in my
opinion because of changing conditions. But always
nice to have available.

10 meter pistol does not, but any match I have shot
in has at least a 10 minute sight in period before a
match. High power does not, but during an "across
the course match" you get two sighter shots when
you change distances. (generally 200,300 and 600 yards)
In the 100 yard reduced high power matches, there is
normally a 10 minute sight in period before the match
commences. In a 1000 yard high power match, you
get unlimited sighters but must declare when you start
your record shots, and all shots after that time are for
record. (all sighters and record shots are taken
within the time allowed for the match)

As far as having two classes/groups it does not matter how
many folks are participating. The match, it's format, and results
does not change except for as shown here.
(using the results from two matches ago, and a 90% cut off
point for the 10 yard offhand match just as an example)

 OPEN - 10 Yard Off Hand Air Rifle Match Results
MK= Marksman
SS= Sharpshooter
SIGHTS
S = SCOPE
I  = IRONS/APERTURE

COMPETITOR          CLASS        SIGHT          RIFLE              SCORE 

Brushy Bill                 SS                S            AS2250XT .22     197-13X    MATCH WINNER
Timegoat                   SS                 I             Diana 34  .177   196-3X     FIRST SHARPSHOOTER
GerryL                       SS                S              TX-200              191-4X
Daysailer                   MK                I           Blue Streak .20     177-1X    FIRST MARKSMAN
Joshua A                    MK               S              RWS 34             174-5X
Plinker                     MK                I            Gamo CFX .177    174-3X
bebloomster              MK                I             FWB 603 .177     172-1X
Spook                        MK                S              Trail NP   .22      155-0X
gamo2hammerli      MK               S               S410SL   .22      153-0X

                                      CONGRATULATIONS TO ALL OUR SHOOTERS

As you can see, I cannot make them look as good as Mark and Bill does.
(I need a tutorial)
But, you can get the idea.

By providing (in this case) the Marksman class, it
may let first timers see that they still have a chance to be first.
And in the mean time, give them a goal to make sharpshooter,
then on to first sharpshooter, and or the match win.

I think I have lobbied as much as I can on this subject.
It may help bring in more shooters, it may not.
Will sit back and let the powers to be decide if it's
worth doing or not.

Starting to feel like I am beating a dead horse. 
But, the good thing about beating a dead horse is
if you get tired. You can go rest and come back and
beat it some more later. That horse isn't going anywhere.

[ac12]

10m precision AR and AP competition are with single bull targets.
Although I think there is one multi-bull 10m AR target that has a sighter bull, and I think that is the one you are referring to.  I think that is the one that is used for 3p matches.

If I can remember correctly that far back, for AP, I had 1 or 2 "sighter" targets that we used. I think the AR guys also had 1 or 2 'sighter' targets. 
If I recall correctly, once we shot for record, all shots after that point were for record.

I think there is something in the rules about equipment change in the middle of the match, and then you could shoot sighters again.

[Brushy Bill]

The only air rifle and pistol competitions I ever shot in were
on the local and state level. Including our state indoor 10 meter
pistol championships. (won my class, sharpshooter in 2001)
The pistol was shot on the B-40/4 target (a 4 bull target and was
allowed one target during the sight in period, then 5 shots per bull for
three targets)  and the rifle was shot on the A5/10 which is a 12 bull
target, 2 bulls for sighters and 10 for record.
I personally shot only a few 10 meter rifle, I usually shot pistol.

At the State outdoor pistol championships, the air pistol match
was shot on the single bull targets one shot per bull,
and they did allow two targets for sighters.

The club that hosted our Indoor state championship did not have
target carriers. In those, and their monthly matches, we did the 10
minute one target (4 bulls) sight in period.
At the club that I belonged to we do have target carriers and
the sighters are taken during the time allowed for the match.
Our first target was our sighter target. Once it was retrieved,
all shots on the three remaining targets were for record.

In our clubs monthly 10 meter air rifle matches, using the
A5/10 target you are allowed a sighter shot at any time.
every target has two sighter bulls. These are not ROTC,
National, or World Championship matches. You will find
that at the local level, just as here in these forum matches
as much is done as possible in order to allow a competitor
to shoot.

Our "local" club matches. (Three clubs that I know of and shot at frequently)
While they are NRA Approved matches.
Shooters are allowed to use an NRA high power coat in 10 meter
rifle, just as they are allowed in smallbore.
Most of the club members are high power shooters first. They
shoot these matches simply for a chance to go shoot. The 10 meter match
winners are always the youngsters who wear the entire ISSF shooting
clothing package right down to the underwear.
State and national 10 meter records were always safe when the highpower
shooters came to shoot.

This is the descriptions of the international matches currently held
at the club I belonged to.

Matches:

Air Pistol: 1 hour 45 minutes for 60 shots plus sighting shots, on B-40/4
target, 5 shots per bull, 20 shots per target; or, 1 hour 15 minutes for 40
shots plus sighting shots.

Air Rifle: 1 hour 45 minutes for 60 shots plus sighting shots, on AR-5/10
target, 1 shot/bull, 10 shots per target; or, 1 hour 15 minutes for 40 shots
plus sighting shots. (added by me, these matches are shot standing only,
this is not a 3P match I have never seen in "our local level" 10 meter AR
matches shot on a single bull target. Not saying no one does, just that is
simpler to use the A5/10 and the NRA approves of this)

Free Pistol: 2 hours for 60 shots plus unlimited sighting shots on B-11
target, 10 shots per target.

Standard Pistol: 60 shots, 20 ea 150/20/10 second series, B33 target.

Spotting scopes will be allowed in all matches.

Match fees: $12.00 for first entry, $6.00 for each additional match. Juniors $6.00 per
match.


At some levels, paper targets are not even used, they are electronic
and they are quickly approaching the time when they will not be using pellets
either, going to a laser system.

[ac12]

w/o the electronic targets things are are compromise.

The matches that I shot tried to follow ISSF rules as close as possible.

2 matches I shot at the old LA Olympics venue was shot on the ISSF version of the B40/1 target.  single target per sheet, and one shot per target.  Electric target carriers, but we still had to change targets 60 times.

My other match at the Coyote Point club in the SF Bay Area, we used the same target, but I think it was 2 shots per target, so 30 target changes.  Manual target carriers.
The AR guys shot 1 shot per target.  I think the equivalent of the AR5/1 target.  So they had to do 60 target changes.

I think my AR coach was disappointed when the day of the match, rather than shoot AR I shot AP.  I shoot AP for score, I shoot AR as a break from AP.