397 accuracy at 10M, off-hand

[smed]

I've been shooting my 397 pretty regularly in my cellar range at 10M (35-37ft depending on where I stand) a few times a week and I'm having a blast with it.  I got the Williams peep sight installed and despite the good advice all over these forums, I still managed to scratch up the barrel removing the factory rear sight, which was disappointing.  I'm not very handy so my drifting technique with a punch was pretty bad.  I got it off but there are two distinct scratches along the pump tube where the rear sight once was.  I'm not losing sleep over it.

Anywho, my shooting has improved significantly, I'm very happy with that, but at this range, I'm not getting near the 1/2" tight groups I've read about here in the forums from others with the Benji 397/392 rifles, which seem to be from a rested position.  I am however able to keep 10 pellets inside a 2" target with an occasional flyer outside that outer ring, but that's usually trigger-pull.  The trigger is tough...some days I can keep it nice and smooth, and other days I just shoot a few targets and put it away.  With 5 pumps per shot there is a whole rhythm to my shooting sessions that I've found to be very important to getting decent results and some days I just can't seem to muster it.   Also, I shoot off-hand almost exclusively, I do not have a proper bench setup and I only have a cabinet that I can stand behind to use as a rest, which I do if I'm making sight adjustments.  Even when rested, I'm standing so I still have a hard time keeping it steady, but it's better than off-hand.  I've not quite mastered the sight adjustments so every couple of weeks I get dissatisfied and decide to tinker, which usually results in an extended session of making adjustments and getting angry that I decided to mess with it in the first place.  The sights are pretty tight right now, I'm not messing with it for a while methinks.

I know I shouldn't be expecting 1/2" groups from off-hand shooting.  I know that morning sessions on the weekends after 2 cups of coffee can be really interesting, and that evening sessions with a glass of wine can be equally as interesting, often times better.  It's funny how the wine relaxes you and lets you focus on your breathing and that smooth trigger pull.   So what are reasonable groups for off-hand shooting at 35ft?  I'd be interested in hearing what others who shoot in a similar, casual manner are able to achieve.  I'm also interested in any tips or advice for tightening them up a bit, especially in relation to the trigger.  I know that some days the trigger seems good and other days its like my 12ga double.  I recently had the gun out at a friends for some outdoor shooting at 50 and 100ft approximately.   I was very impressed with my ability to hit a soup can regularly at the 100ft range with the Williams sight.  And not just hit it, I was keeping most shots in about a 4" diameter area on the can.  At 50' 3" groups seemed pretty reasonable, but we were just shooting soup cans and beer cans so it wasn't a very formal session with targets where you could actually measure your results.

I usually shoot 3-5, 2" targets, 6-10 rounds per target.  I use a variety of target types but I like the 12-bull NRA rifle targets that are scaled down for 10M.  Quick math shows I'm pumping the rifle 150 times at least during a 20-30 minute shooting session and it all depends on how I feel as to how much I'm going to shoot that day.  I have a bad back and do yoga and stretching and push-ups daily to maintain my strength and stamina but after 20 years of chiropractic I know that some days I'm only shooting 3 targets at 7 round each if my back isn't cooperating.  And some days if I'm feeling good, 5 or more targets with 7-10 rounds each.  It all depends on how I'm feeling and I usually have to shoot a couple of targets before I know how that day is going to go.  Sometimes I quit at 2 targets if my back is tight and I'm not able to keep real steady.  One thing is certain, I've had the gun for about 100 days and my biceps, triceps and chest look great!  Now to work on that beer gut.

Thoughts, tips and observations welcomed and appreciated.  I'd like to enter a few of the upcoming shooting matches but I think I'm just too inconsistent right now to take a serious go at it.

 

[Makincheez]

Try it from a rest to see what the gun is capable of. Try a variety of pellets too. My 397 loves the boxed Premier lights and hates wad cutters. Air Arms falcons are actually funny; sprays them all over the place!

5 pumps seems like a lot for 30 or so feet. I chronied mine at 450 fps on 2 pumps and 530 on 3 pumps. Since my Izzy shoots right around 460 I figured 2 pumps is plenty for paper. I can count on sub 1/2" groups with the boxed CPLs. Point of impact goes up about 3/8" give or take with 3 or 4 pumps.

I want to do what you're doing. I doubt I could keep them inside of 2" now but it's something to work towards I guess.

[smed]

Thanks for your response.   I didn't realize until the next morning that I completely rambled along with that post.  I should have made it more clear and concise.  Glad to find someone else shooting a 397 regularly though to compare notes with.  And with that, I failed to mention a number of key factors that you've kindly reminded me about, like pellet choices.

I've been using a variety of pellets, Beeman Kodiak 10.65gr,  Beeman Crow Magnum 8.8gr, Crossman Premier Hollowpoint 8.5gr and Crossman Premier Ultra Magnum 10.6gr pellets.  And more than any other pellet, the cheap Crossman field points at 7.4gr, they are just too cheap to pass up on and in my very unscientific study, seem to perform almost as well as the other choices.  I can say that I definitely notice a tightening of groups with the heavy pellets, Kodiaks and the CP Ulta Magnums.  They seem to do very well, but I've only shot about 2/3 of  tin of each, enough to get a feel for them.  The CPHP also seem to product nice groups, but they are still 1-2" groups at 35ft off-hand.  Just less flyers.

I think the problem I'm having most is with the trigger.  I'm clearly yanking the muzzle around on some shots with this trigger...the groups dont lie.  I'll have few shots grouped well in and around POA and then a few more shots grouped around 10-11 o'clock, which is where my shots tend to fall when I'm not pulling the trigger well.  I guess I really need to work harder on that trigger pull.

I do not have a formal shooting bench.   I could cobble together a sturdy table but I still dont have a gun rest, I guess these are items I need to purchase if I intend to get better at this and successfully troubleshoot my shooting technique.  I'll start shopping around for a rest and a portable shooting table.

[ev-in-az]

My 397 with a Williams aperture sight will shoot a ragged one hole group from a rest(foam block on a box) with JSB 8.44 pellets. I haven't found another pellet that performs that well with this rifle. I polished the sear and installed a lighter spring which helped my offhand shooting. On a good day I can shoot dime size groups offhand. I have settled on four pumps as the optimum amount. Practice makes a difference. I scratched my barrel too.

[Sheridan 74]

My shooting rest is just a one gallon ziploc bag filled with sand sitting on an upside down plastic pot. It's not fancy but it is pretty steady.

Jeff

[ac12]

Is the trigger pull SMOOTH?
If it isn't, might want to to a search to look for ideas/ways to smoothen out the trigger.

I have  a Daisy 953, and the stock trigger pull was LOUSEY!!!  I spent more effort fighting the trigger than holding on target.  The trigger screwed up my scores...BIG TIME.  After I deburred and polished the sear, the trigger became MUCH easier to control and I could concentrate on the target rather than the trigger, and my scores with that rifle went UP.

[ac12]

As for your trigger finger.

Imagine pulling the trigger (no gun in your hand)
- put the pad of your finger on the trigger
- pivot your trigger finger on the 2nd joint, so the pad of your finger goes STRAIGHT BACK.
- when you pull your finger, only your finger forward of the 2nd joint should move, NOTHING else. Practice this until you can do it w/o moving anything but your finger.

Now move to the rifle.
We will DRY FIRE on a blank target.
If you can cock the hammer w/o charging the air, do that. (We don't want the sound of the discharge to distract you from concentrating on your finger.)
Use a BLANK sheet of paper rather than a target.  This is because we want to work on the trigger w/o the distraction of a target.
- setup as above
- aim at the blank paper
- now pay attention to your trigger finger
- squeeze the trigger SLOWLY (no jerking or fast motion, steady smooth pressure on the trigger) (The trigger pull needs to be smooth to do this, burrs on the sear will cause the trigger to hang up during the pull)
- repeat this a few dozen times a day, to train your trigger finger muscles to work w/o you having to pay attention to it

Next step is your stance.
Like a house, if the foundation is not good, the house could collapse.
So your foundation is your feet.  If it is not stable, you lost before you even started.
The surface should be solid and level.
Your feet should be in shoes that have a FLAT bottom.  No rounded or worn soles and heels.  You cannot be stable wearing shoes with a rounded bottom.
If your shoes are not flat, go look for a pair of old fashioned basketball shoes.  As I recall those had FLAT bottoms.

Next decision is for you, are you going to shoot target style or hunting style?
I recommend standardizing on one style, or your body will get confused.
Target style is more stable for the range, but will slow you down or may not be appropriate in the field.

From here I recommend you download the Canadian Cadet Air Rifle Training Manual.
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/Canadian_Air_Rifle_Training-1.pdf
Good stuff.

[Makincheez]

ac, that's good advice! I've found that with really stiff triggers (like the one on my 397), as long as they're not gritty, I can get away with placing my thumb behind the bolt, pad of index square on the trigger, and squeezing them together as if I wanted to take a big pinch. This worked for my 1377 before I polished things a little and replaced the trigger spring. Works for me now on my 397 but I'll need to try your method too.

smed, funny you mentioned the field point 7.4s; mine sprays those everywhere as bad as the AA Falcons! Glad they work for ya though 
You don't need anything fancy to shoot off of as long as it doesn't dance around. The trick is to maintain the sight picture all the way through the shot. I think that's the only way a guy can figure out what pellet works best. I scoped my 397; from the rest the crosshairs stay on the dot after pellet hits paper. One of the many advantages of pneumatic power plants.

[ac12]

Mak
Agree.
My stock 953 trigger had burrs so bad that the trigger would catch and get stuck.  Requiring more trigger force to get past that burr.  And that was just the first of many burrs.  I think "gritty" is too nice a term for  that trigger.  Once I got the sear and striker deburred and polished, so that it moved smoothly, the trigger weight did not bother me much. 

[ac12]

smed
As Mak said, try to reduce the number of pumps for each shot.
The idea is you want enough velocity to stabilize the pellet in flight and punch a nice hole, and that is it.
More power is more effort to pump for little or no gain.

BTW, if I seem to have disappeared, it is simply I forgot to check this thread. Drop down to the Target Shooting Discussion Gate and post a thread there.  I always check that forum.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=forum#c3

[smed]

wow  - all good advice - I really appreciate it.

AC12 - I'm going to have to take some time with that manual you linked but I appreciate your input on stance, trigger technique and the practice items.  I'm going to try some of that and see if it helps.  As far as the stance, I suppose I would probably prefer the "hunting stance" since I plan on going hunting with the rifle eventually.  I know stance is very important for skeet and trap and I've learned to perfect my stance mainly for skeet, which I shoot more than trap.  It's a fairly dynamic stance because with skeet the targets are moving in lots of different directions so I've learned to be pretty flexible.  Obviously shooting a rifle is a lot different so I'm not sure if there is anything I can use there.

Mak - my trigger doesn't seem to have any burs on the sear that I can feel.  It is smooth, just hard to pull, needs a lot of weight behind it and I think the part I have the most problem with is that I can never seem to figure out where it's going to break.  I've had some days shooting where I seem to have anticipated the break properly and those days I usually see good results, but it's not every day.  And some days I can't seem to get it right.  I'll have to take AC12's advice and figure that trigger out by practicing dry firing.

This weekend I'm going to set up a table and get a nice sandbag to use as a rest and see if that doesn't help me tighten up those groups and then maybe I'll have some better feedback as to why my groups are so scattered.   Also, I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a Steroid 392 from Tim in Cali so I'm excited to shoot both guns side by side to see the difference.  If the steroid performs much better than the stock 397, I'll send Tim the 397 to have that done up as well. 

Thanks to all for the advice and recommendations - I appreciate it.

[smed]

. I have settled on four pumps as the optimum amount. Practice makes a difference. I scratched my barrel too.

I have used 5-6 pumps when practicing, but mainly 5.   I settled on this # of pumps not because I think that I need the extra power, but because I plan on hunting squirrel with this rifle and I figure that practice ought to mimic actually hunting scenario, and I can't imagine using less than 5 pumps out in the woods.  If anything I'll probably pump it up 6-7 times and reserve 8-pumps for a long-shot.  That's my thoughts on the # of pumps.

I'm really surprised by Mak's chrony reports, I had no idea that just a couple of pumps charged the gun that much.  So if I'm using 5 pumps I would have to think I'm getting at least 600fps from the muzzle, using his data as a guideline.  I've used only 4 pumps on a few occasions, it certainly seems as if it has no trouble getting the projectile to the target.  But I was concerned with getting as flat a trajectory as possible, again, one of the reasons I was using 5 pumps as my std for practice.  I could experiment with this a little more.

[ac12]

@smed
This may be contrary to what others may feel. 
IMHO, you do NOT need to know when the sear will release.  For static target shooting, that will mess you up.  Different story for hunting or skeet/trap.  When I shoot I concentrate on the sight picture, and tell my finger to start squeezing.  As I hold the sight on the target, the trigger will release (without me knowing exactly when it will release) and the gun fires.  If I pay attention to the trigger, I reduce my concentration on the sight picture, and thus will shoot lower scores.  This is the "surprise release" that people talk about.

[smed]

@smed
This may be contrary to what others may feel. 
IMHO, you do NOT need to know when the sear will release.  For static target shooting, that will mess you up.  Different story for hunting or skeet/trap.  When I shoot I concentrate on the sight picture, and tell my finger to start squeezing.  As I hold the sight on the target, the trigger will release (without me knowing exactly when it will release) and the gun fires.  If I pay attention to the trigger, I reduce my concentration on the sight picture, and thus will shoot lower scores.  This is the "surprise release" that people talk about.

Well I dont know about that with a shotgun, I use a whole different approach when shooting moving targets and to me it's not that important where the trigger breaks, I seem to have that figured out pretty good with my shotguns.  But I kinda thought with a rifle that being able to anticipate that break would be handy.  Nevertheless, I took some of your advice and did a lot of practicing with the trigger-pull this week.   I didn't do any blank-paper practicing, but I put up some targets and really didn't focus too much on the sight picture, just the trigger pull.  I worked on my breathing and made sure I was exhaling during each shot and got more comfortable pulling the trigger back slowly and smoothly - and again - wasn't really focusing too much on the target and my "wobble".   I didn't get any spectacular groups, but after day-2 I was anticipating the break better and holding the rifle much more still when the trigger finally did break. 

So - this weekend I put up a sheet of clean targets and threw about 100 rounds at them and I was quite impressed.  The trigger practice definitely made a difference.  Fewer flyers and more tight groups with 2-3 hole wide ragged paper.  That's the kind of results I was looking for.  I even put a table down and made myself a nice rest to shoot a few targets and I was getting 3/4" groups that were like one ragged hole with 7-10 shots per target.  I'm pleased.  I think the practice is starting to pay off.

I can't imagine getting much more accurate off-hand, I wish I could tighten up that wobble a little bit more and I suspect I can with practice, but for now I'm shooting the gun to it's potential I believe and that's pretty good.  I'm happy to see that the accuracy of this rifle lives up to it's reputation.  At this point, my eyes are the limiting factor.  When I'm hitting a black bull target, I can't see the holes in the paper from where I'm shooting so I just lollipop the front sight and focus on a smooth trigger pull.  If I switch to a light colored target I can barely make out individual holes from the pellets with my eyes so I believe I'm already shooting as good as my eyes on the Williams sight will allow provided that I focus on my trigger-pull and breathe-control.

Thanks again for all the advice.
I'm thinking about trying one of the off-hand shooting matches in the near future, but I have to familiarize myself with the rules and conventions first.

[ac12]

I cannot see a pellet hole at 10 meters.
I use a 20x spotting scope to see the target, otherwise I have no idea where the pellet hit.
A 10x scope would be adequate at only 10 meters, but that scope is what I used when I shot 22RF at 50 yards.  The hard part is finding a spotting scope that will focus down to 10 meters.  Some do NOT, and many do not specify their min focus distance.

Try releasing half the breath, then fire, then release the 2nd half of your breath.
Get the shot off within 6-8 seconds of settling on target.  The longer you hold the WORSE the wobble gets.

And get Mak to tell you how to lighten the trigger.
Just don't make it too light.  Some guns do not function well with a light trigger.