Advantage of AR2078B over AR2078A

[needmoretoys]

I have a AR2078A that I got from MM 6 or 8 years ago. He made some mods to get the maximum shot count. I then changed the hammer spring to a lighter one than stock. With my basement at the current 62F, it shoots JSB Exact 8.2 gr at 575 fps, with a normal SD of 2 or 3. I get about 60 good shots out of 1 CO2 cartridge. JSB Exact shoot the best groups, better than RWS MK, Hobby or Super Match, H&N Match, Gamo Match or any of the other pellets that I have tried. I consistently get 5 shot groups of 0.08 to 0.12 CtC at 10 m from a bag rest. The worst I have gotten from about 10 groups is 0.14 and 4 of the 5 were a single hole. RWS MK give me groups up to 0.20 and the rest are worse, except RWS Super Dome, which are almost as good as Exact.

I have no problem with the bolt, as the lighter hammer spring makes it very easy to cock. The only reason that I'm thinking of getting an AR2078B from Mike is better accuracy, especially with wadcutter pellets. I might try some H&N Finale Match in my A to see if they are better than the rest, although I have 8 tins of Exacts that I got last year to shoot in this rifle.

So what can I expect in accuracy improvement from the B over my A if some people have shot bench rest groups with wadcutter pellets with a B? Does the side lever cocking system result in better accuracy?

[ac12]

I think the side-lever is just easier to use in a match.  It may also be a marketing thing where the manufacturer wants it to look like a match rifle vs a bolt sportster in a match stock.  I almost bought an AR2078B simply because of the side-lever, vs the bolt of the A model and on my TAU-200.
The advertizing on Archers site seem to hint that it is a more accurate version, but I think the A and B use the same barrel.

[PaperPunch1]

needmoretoys, what caliber are you talking about? I think .08 group c-t-c is unbeatable considering even a .177 pellet is larger than that.
PaperPunch1

[mikeiniowa]

The A model no longer comes with a choked barrel, last ones I had didn't anyway, the older rifles did but they quit making them that way a year or so ago. The only change in the B is the side lever and the better barrel. I have found a 2mm transfer port seal helps the shot count and keeps velocity in the middle 500's.

[needmoretoys]

So I guess my older AR2078A has the choked barrel. Mike, are you saying that the AR2078B will have a choked barrel like my AR2078A, or will it be even better than the one on my A?

By the way, I have attached a couple of pics of groups shot at 10 m off a rest with the JSB Exact and RWS MK and Hobby. Sorry, but I haven't yet figured out how to place pics in the text. My A is a .177.

[huklbery]

I'm a side lever fan, my buddy has an A & B, (disclaimer) I have never been fond of the bolt on the QB family.  The side lever is decently done on the B and a big improvement  IMHO.   

[ray in wi]

I have the B from Mike, and the sidelever is now so smooth that it feels like I am not even cocking the gun. I have a couple thousand rounds thru it, and she is just crazy smooth and effortless to shoot. I never measured the group size but they all go thru the same hole. For Mikes price, I may just pick another up before too long. My son and I have a few 78's and the B is way beyond any of them as far as smooth easy cocking although son has an insanely accurate 78 in .22.
Regards
Ray

[needmoretoys]

I've done a search for test target data for AR2078B rifles. I found 4 test targets from 3 different rifles. The C-t-C groups ranged from about 0.13 for 5 shots at 10 yds to .25 for 10 shots at 10 yds. I also found a test on the PA blog for 2 AR2078A rifles from January and March 2011. The first was not accurate at all, with the best 5 shot group being 0.34 at 10 m. The second randomly selected rifle has a best group of 0.24 with RWS R10 heavy pellets. I'm not sure that I want to risk getting a B to replace my A if these test results are normal. I can consistently beat those groups, mostly by a lot, and I haven't even tried top of the line pellets like RWS R10 and H&N Finale Match.

As to the bolt, I have no reason to get a B just to have the lever over the bolt. The bolt on my rifle is very smooth and not difficult to cock at all. A tribute to what a good job Mike did on the rifle before sending it to me. I would love to give Mike more business. It's been a long time since I bought the 3 QB series rifles from him.

[ac12]

Since your rifle can shoot that well, I would leave well enough alone.
That is certainly better than I can hold in the standing position.

[needmoretoys]

Even a .30 group is better than I can hold standing. It's just that I don't want an actual 10 end up being an 8 or an 8 ending up a 10 because of the rifle accuracy. I shoot very few 10s, so I want to know when I actually score one.

[ac12]

To test for better accuracy than what you are getting, you need to use a 2-point bag rest (forestock and butt) with a HIGH magnification scope and use benchrest technique to shoot.

The specs that I found for the 2078 rifle is 0.24 inches at 10m.  0.24" accuracy is "poor" for a match rifle, which is why I did not get one.  You are getting much better accuracy, 1/3 to 1/2 of the spec accuracy, out of YOUR rifle, which is why I say hang on to it.  Another 2078 may be worse than your rifle, and still be within manufacturers specs. 

If you REALLY want better, you need to go up to a tier-1 match rifle.  You can get used ones at "decent" prices at www.targettalk.org and go to the 'buy sell trade' section.  But "decent" prices for a used tier-1 match rifle is still much more expensive than your 2078.  You can buy 2 or 3 new 2078s for the price of a used tier-1 SSP match rifle.

[needmoretoys]

I'm not a good enough shot to justify spending much money on a more accurate rifle. As I'm currently in my 60s, I don't expect to ever be a competitive shooter. I might go as high as a Crosman Challenger, Air Force Edge or Air Arms T200 if I thought it would make me a better shot and be at least as accurate as my AR2078A is with the JSB pellets. However, from the extensive tests of the Challenger and Edge on the PA blog, they do not appear to be as accurate as my AR. Neither were the 2 AR2078As that they tested. I just wish that one of my wadcutter pellets would shoot as accurate as the JSB Exact do. I have R10 and Finale Match in my PA cart in both pistol and rifle weights and will probably order a tin of each.

I'm currently trying to add weights to the muzzle to improve the balance. I think that the CG is too far rearward and not as steady as it could be with more muzzle weight. I don't want a rifle that is too heavy though. I have an old Gamo MC-Super single stroke pneumatic that weighs 10 lb 5 oz and I find it too heavy, in addition to it being tiring and cumbersome to cock. One thing that made me start to think of the AR2078B was the heavier barrel weight and the initial hope that it might be more accurate with wadcutter pellets than mine is. However, it is much cheaper to try 4 tins of pellets from PA first and to add some weight near the muzzle. I wish I knew the diameter of the Edge barrel shroud, as PA sells an Edge weight set. If it fit the AR2078A I would buy it. Right now I'm taping some metal strips along the AR muzzle shroud and will shoot it tomorrow to see what it does.

For accuracy tests I do use an adjustable front rest with owl ear bag and a V shaped rear bag for the stock. I have used both a 12X scope and the aperture sights and find no difference in group size between them. I consistently get 0.08 to 0.14 groups with JSB Exact with either.

[ac12]

A method of adding muzzle weight that some of the rifle competitors use is, simply get some large diameter lead solder and wrap it around the barrel.  Looks kinda ugly, but it works and is easily fine tuned for just the amount of weight you want.

I don't know who does the PA testing/blog for the match guns, but if it isn't someone reasonably familiar with match shooting, I would not put much faith in their reporting.  On the Challenger test, 4 different pellets do not make a valid pellet test.  Neither do I care for his testing of the accuracy of the AF Edge.  That he did not see the reason for vice testing the AF rifle for accuracy shows his lack of credibility, and puts into question all his accuracy testing.

The AF Edge has been reported to NOT have the accuracy of the Daisy 853/887 rifles.  But others have said, that if you find the right pellet, it is accurate.  I don't know if on the PA blog they bother to find the pellet that shoots the best, as that can be a LOT of work.  Many brands/models/head size to test.  The brands of match pellets that I know are RWS, H&N and Vogel.  I do not know if JSB produces wadcutter match pellets.  And you may have to try different head sizes also. 

I do not know of any of the match dealers that sell a pellet sampler of the different brands/models/headsizes of match pellets.  This was such a pain that Neil Johnson (since retired) used to do a service to find the pellet that shot the best out of your match rifle.

I like my rifle with the center of gravity/balance point in front of my support hand.  That forward balance helps to dampen out my wobble.

I have been reading that the Crosman Challenger 2009 has been replacing the Daisy/Avanti 853 in some sportster organizations.  And they would NOT do that if the Challenger had less accuracy.  Giving up points could cost you a position in competition.

Go over to www.targettalk.org and go to the youth section.  There are several coaches that show up who are familiar with most of the allowable sportster rifles.  Unfortunately the importers of the AR2078 have not chosen to try to get it approved by the sportster group, even though its low cost would make it a sure hit (as long as its accuracy was there).

BTW, I understand that the AF Edge has the best sights of ALL the sportster rifles.  Some coaches are hoping that the sportster rules will be changed to allow them to put the AF sights on their Daisy/Avanti rifles.

[needmoretoys]

"I like my rifle with the center of gravity/balance point in front of my support hand.  That forward balance helps to dampen out my wobble."

Same here, but the balance point on my AR2078A is at the stock mounting screw, which is only about 2" in front of the front of the trigger guard. The B version is probably more forward, as it has a heavier muzzle shroud.

"Unfortunately the importers of the AR2078 have not chosen to try to get it approved by the sportster group, even though its low cost would make it a sure hit (as long as its accuracy was there)."

As it is built now, it doesn't adhere to the 7.5# maximum weight. Mine weighs 7 lb 12.6 oz. The B version will be even a bit heavier. I'm sure that they could lighten the stock butt area to make it lighter and get the balance more forward.

I would lean toward the Challenger if I were to buy one of the 3 that I mentioned. In addition, PA has a pretty good deal on a package with the pump and a 10% coupon to boot. It can be had for as low as $624, with bare rifle, Air Venturi front sight, Avanti rear sight, Benjamin pump and a 500 tin of H&N Finale Match pellets (head size not listed). Shipping is extra and I haven't checked how much it is. I don't know why they don't use the Air Venturi rear sight instead of the Avanti one, except that perhaps it isn't listed as an acceptable sportster sight, even though it is the same as the Avanti one. Buying the complete rifle with the Crosman sights included costs $58 more. I think that the Crosman, Air Venturi and Avanti rear sights are identical. The bare rifle is on back order for a couple of weeks, but that would be no problem.

I've seen the targettalk site. I think that's where I read a discussion about relatively poor accuracy of the Edge, but that was people buying the first Edge rifles produced. Perhaps AF has improved accuracy. I'll check out the youth section.

[ac12]

Caution on the rear sight.

The sight in the $120 Crosman sight set is made in Spain by Gamo. 
That is a GOOD sight.

ALL of the cheaper ones (including the Daisly/Avanti) are Chinese made clones of the Gamo.  They are not as good as the Gamo, but I think they are better than the 1st generation Chinese clones which were BAD.  The Chinese clones are bad in is the slop/tolerance of the H and V adjustments.  There are fixes that address some of the problems, but they require some surgery on the sight.

Given a choice, go with the Gamo sight. 
I have one on my Daisy 953.

If the manufacturer and the US importer want to go after the US sportster class, they could make a variant of the the rifle to meet the specs, a 2078C with a shorter barrel, lighter stock, heavier trigger pull, etc.  The other problem is getting thru the politics of getting the rifle approved for sportster class.  That would be on the plate of the US importer.

[ac12]

This is the specific quote that leads me to discount some of the comments on the PA blog by Tom Gaylord.  And now I will discount more of his comments in his blogs.

"I knew that if I did the velocity tests on all three barrels that you guys would also want me to test accuracy as well, so I did it. And I finally buckled to the pressure to stick the gun in a vise, though personally I don't see the attraction."

#1 - For a target rifle, he is interested in velocity and not accuracy. 
> Where is he coming from?  As a target shooter, I want accuracy #1.
#2 - He does not understand why a machine rest (or in his case a vice) is necessary for consistent accuracy testing.
> So he does not think eliminating/minimizing the effect of the human variable is important.

This tell me that he #1 does not understand the purpose of a target rifle, and #2 does not know how to really test a rifle for accuracy.

OK I'm done with my rant.

[needmoretoys]

Thanks for the advice on the sight. I guess I'll get the rifle complete if I decide to get it. Now to decide if I want to spend the money. Wife had no problem with getting the AR2078B, but both of us will have some thinking to do to spend around $700 for the rifle, pump and shipping from PA. I've also been thinking about a new recurve target bow for the spring. It will cost closer to $300 and I'm a better relative shot with a bow than I am with a rifle. Remember, he who dies with the most toys wins  , or is it he who dies with the most toys still dies. 

You posted while I was writing the above. Can't agree more about accuracy above velocity. These rifles are meant to shoot accurately at 10 m, although I guess some might be interested in high velocity to use for field target. If so, they should be looking at field target rifles. I can also see the point of using a machine rest to test accuracy, although I can see some merit in just testing off of a good front and rear bag rest. I've found that even with a rest, a bad trigger or heavy trigger pull will affect my groups, so shooting off of a rest will sort of test the entire rifle to a degree.

[ac12]

I stopped "collecting" air rifles.  I don't shoot all the ones that I have.  Although I am still tempted when I see a new and interesting air gun.

I know what you mean.  I have a Daisy 953 that had an absolutely LOUSEY stock trigger.  The effort to pull that trigger constantly messed up my aim.  In a machine rest, it would not have made a difference.  But put a human in the loop and accuracy went to pot.  I have since tuned the trigger, polishing the sear to make the trigger pull smooth.

BTW, I do like the fact that the AF Edge and Crosman Challenger are out on the market.  Maybe that will get Daisy to improve the x53 and 88x rifles.  The Daisy's are nice rifles with BAD triggers.

[needmoretoys]

I have the Gamo sight set on my old Gamo rifle. I just mounted the rear sight on my AR2078A. It won't make me shoot any better, but at least I'll easily know which way to turn the knobs without the Chinese characters on the AR sight.