My DreamPup Vs. My Wildcat

[PaulFWI]

This is kind of a stream of consciousness. I'm offering info but looking for input. Most of you have more experience than me (I don't have a lot of time to shoot).

I have a DreamPup .22 tuned to shoot FX Hybrids with the standard liner at 900 FPS, and a Wildcat MK1 in .25, in which I shoot the 33.95gr JSB pellets at ~800 FPS (never tuned/adjusted).

Note:

- The Wildcat is more accurate (shooting pellets) by 50%: It easily groups 1/2" at 50Y vw 3/4" for the DreamPup.

- Surprisingly to me the BC of the .25 pellets is not far off the .22 slugs. I calc about .05. The .25 JSB is at 710-715 FPS at 50 yards, down from 800. The .22 "hybrid" slug comes in about .07.


Questions I have for the group:

- Is the reduced accuracy of the DreamPup likely due to shooting faster? Note: Pellets (18.3 gr) are even less accurate.

- The Pup has a mushy trigger that often fails to reset. Is this typical of these guns?? I know it has the linkage going back to the aft action, unlike the Wildcat.

Within 60Y I am now thinking there is very little advantage to slugs. Am I wrong?

P.S. I'd love to buy an Impact II but they're always out of stock!

[Rallyshark]

I think the slugs are less accurate for a number of reasons, most likely.  It may be as simple as that barrel doesn't like those slugs.  If you want to shoot slugs, slap a slug liner in that dreampup, and get an NSA and H&N sample pack.  Then you can find out what it likes.  Also, slugs tend to like speed.  I've always had the best accuracy in the 1000 fps range with slugs, with a few rare exceptions.  I have a 700 mm slug liner, and it LOVES the NSA 24.8 grain moving around 1000 fps.  It is sub MOA at 100 yards, and likely farther(if I could shoot that good).  I think you just haven't found the slug/barrel/speed combo that works yet.  Slugs require lots of testing to find the right combo.  When you do find it, it is priceless IMO. 

I mean, if you're only shooting 50 yards and under, then pellets are great.  If you want to stretch it out, pellets can't hold a candle to slugs.  You'll get less drop, less movement in wind, and a lot more retained energy.  You're also comparing apples and oranges with a .25 heavy pellet and a .22 light weight slug, fwiw. 

[PaulFWI]

I think the slugs are less accurate for a number of reasons, most likely.  It may be as simple as that barrel doesn't like those slugs.  If you want to shoot slugs, slap a slug liner in that dreampup, and get an NSA and H&N sample pack.  Then you can find out what it likes.  Also, slugs tend to like speed.  I've always had the best accuracy in the 1000 fps range with slugs, with a few rare exceptions.  I have a 700 mm slug liner, and it LOVES the NSA 24.8 grain moving around 1000 fps.  It is sub MOA at 100 yards, and likely farther(if I could shoot that good).  I think you just haven't found the slug/barrel/speed combo that works yet.  Slugs require lots of testing to find the right combo.  When you do find it, it is priceless IMO. 

I mean, if you're only shooting 50 yards and under, then pellets are great.  If you want to stretch it out, pellets can't hold a candle to slugs.  You'll get less drop, less movement in wind, and a lot more retained energy.  You're also comparing apples and oranges with a .25 heavy pellet and a .22 light weight slug, fwiw.

The FX Hybrids are made for the non-slug liner. I have a slug liner and sent it to the tuner. He said it shot the hybrids better with the stock liner.

FWIW, that liner shoots NSAs terribly.

The thing is the FX Hybrids are what FX is recommending as the BEST ammo for their guns now, and with standard liners too.

I could always stick the slug liner in tho and try the NSAs. If they are better - then FX is doing something wrong.

But, I cannot get this .22 to shoot 25gr slugs at 1,000 FPS. It won't do it. If it did, it would get maybe ten shots per fill.

What rifle are you shooting?

[PaulFWI]

Can anybody shooting FX Hybrids out of a standard (non-Superior) liner, in a DreamPup or other FX, comment on accuracy you're getting?

[Rallyshark]

I think the slugs are less accurate for a number of reasons, most likely.  It may be as simple as that barrel doesn't like those slugs.  If you want to shoot slugs, slap a slug liner in that dreampup, and get an NSA and H&N sample pack.  Then you can find out what it likes.  Also, slugs tend to like speed.  I've always had the best accuracy in the 1000 fps range with slugs, with a few rare exceptions.  I have a 700 mm slug liner, and it LOVES the NSA 24.8 grain moving around 1000 fps.  It is sub MOA at 100 yards, and likely farther(if I could shoot that good).  I think you just haven't found the slug/barrel/speed combo that works yet.  Slugs require lots of testing to find the right combo.  When you do find it, it is priceless IMO. 

I mean, if you're only shooting 50 yards and under, then pellets are great.  If you want to stretch it out, pellets can't hold a candle to slugs.  You'll get less drop, less movement in wind, and a lot more retained energy.  You're also comparing apples and oranges with a .25 heavy pellet and a .22 light weight slug, fwiw.

The FX Hybrids are made for the non-slug liner. I have a slug liner and sent it to the tuner. He said it shot the hybrids better with the stock liner.

FWIW, that liner shoots NSAs terribly.

The thing is the FX Hybrids are what FX is recommending as the BEST ammo for their guns now, and with standard liners too.

I could always stick the slug liner in tho and try the NSAs. If they are better - then FX is doing something wrong.

But, I cannot get this .22 to shoot 25gr slugs at 1,000 FPS. It won't do it. If it did, it would get maybe ten shots per fill.

What rifle are you shooting?

Which NSA slugs did you try?  My slug liner prefers the .218 sizes best, and didn't do nearly as well with the .217 slugs.  Not that FX slugs are bad, but let's not forget FX is out to make money like everybody else.  Their slugs are way over priced compared to the NSA and H&N offerings.  They have them in 17, 21, and 23 grain, which will be a lot easier to get up to speed.  They also have .218 and .217 sample packs, so you can test and find out which works best.  If you go on youtube or wherever to look at videos of guns with the FX slug liners, you'll notice a lot of people are using slugs other than the FX slugs.

My gun isn't an FX, but I used a 700mm slug liner(not the newest "superior" liner) to make a barrel for my gun.  My gun is a Hatsan with a 255cc air cylinder, and I'm getting 24 shots at 1000 fps with the 24.8 grain slugs on a 200 bar fill, fwiw.  A lot of people shooting slugs tend to use an Impact, but the barrel is the same   I think the dream pup can get a lot more speed than you're getting and still have a decent shot count.  It is just a matter of the right reg settings, a power plenum, and a better transfer port(Huma makes one that requires no modding of the gun).   Is your gun bottled or is it the cylinder version?  Also, what length slug liner did you try?  You'll be able to make a lot more speed with the 600mm and 700mm liners vs the shorter 500mm.  Just search youtube for .22 FX slug liner testing, and you'll find all kinds of good stuff. 

Hopefully, some of the FX folks will chime in on this with some solid recommendations.  I can tell you though, your Dreampup is perfectly capable of shooting slugs very accurately.  You just gotta figure out the right ingredients to make it shine. 

[PaulFWI]

I have the .217s which I'd read were best.

I LOVE FX guns (have owned AirForce, BSA, Daystate, and more), but them constantly changing hardware is getting annoying. How does the new "Superior" barrel differ from the ones sold earlier this year?! I bought this DreamPup six months ago and it's already not current.

I only shoot to 60Y. Who can RELIABLY hit a 1" kill zone farther than that? I think most of the 100Y+ shooters hunting game are irresponsible.

Given that, maybe I should stick to pellets.

[Rallyshark]

I have the .217s which I'd read were best.

I LOVE FX guns (have owned AirForce, BSA, Daystate, and more), but them constantly changing hardware is getting annoying. How does the new "Superior" barrel differ from the ones sold earlier this year?! I bought this DreamPup six months ago and it's already not current.

I only shoot to 60Y. Who can RELIABLY hit a 1" kill zone farther than that? I think most of the 100Y+ shooters hunting game are irresponsible.

Given that, maybe I should stick to pellets.

I can't comment on an old vs new comparison, but can say the first version slug liners work quite well.  I've heard some say .217 works better, but mine prefers .218.  I have a friend with a Crown(700mm slug liner), and his prefers .218 as well.  I've seen quite a few of the slug liners that prefer .218.  Every barrel is different, and there is rarely a plug and play answer when it comes to which slugs a barrel will like.  That is why the sample packs are available in different weights and diameters.  Regardless of when your gun was made, it CAN be tuned to do almost anything you want.  Not current, doesn't mean not good.  I have a gun that is nowhere near as good as an FX, but I also have tools and knowledge, which has helped me get that gun shooting at the level it is.  I'll admit, I'm a tinkerer, and modifying guns to be better is half the fun to me, haha. 

I can reliably hit a 1" kill zone at 100 yards, as can many of the people I shoot with.  We regularly line up pieces of gravel, often smaller than 1" on the top of a steel bar gate and shoot them off at 110 yards.  It is all about practice, and knowing the ballistics of the projectiles you're shooting.  We often get bored with the pieces of gravel at that distance, move cans and smaller targets out to 200+ yards.  When the accuracy is there, you can do a lot more than you think.  At 110 yards with my particular tune that slug is still carrying 36 fpe, and still holding 27 fpe at 200 yards. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everyone should taking shots on game at 200 yards or even 100 yards for that matter.  I'm just saying it is certainly reliably doable, if the shooter and gun are capable.  I try and limit myself to 150 yards, and only if I have a solid situation where I know I can make the shot.  If someone isn't comfortable or their gun isn't capable, they absolutely shouldn't take long shots.  That would certainly be irresponsible.  However, I wouldn't label 100 yard shots as irresponsible, if the shooter and gun are capable.  I'll also add, I only take those shots past 100 yards with slugs, because they are far more accurate and predictable in those situations.  That is why slugs are so awesome, when you find the combo that works.   If you don't want to do that, I completely understand, and I don't knock that at all.  We need more responsible hunters.  That responsibility involves know the limits of yourself and your equipment, of course

[PaulFWI]

"I can reliably hit a 1" kill zone at 100 yards, as can many of the people I shoot with.  We regularly line up pieces of gravel, often smaller than 1" on the top of a steel bar gate and shoot them off at 110 yards.  It is all about practice, and knowing the ballistics of the projectiles you're shooting."

When you *know the range,* yes! No doubt. No problem.

I'm talking about in the field. Rangefinders don't work reliably enough to rely on them when a ten-yard difference means 2" of drop. They don't work fast enough when you're shooting at game, at least if your game moves.

For every shot that's hit a ground squirrel at 100Y there are 10 or 20 that missed or wounded it. That's what I'm talking about.

In any case, you're right that .218 slugs might shoot better in my liner. When FX released their "hybrids" (which are really just HP slugs with a dent in the rear), I thought, "These are guaranteed to be the best ammo for my FX rifles."

[Rallyshark]

"I can reliably hit a 1" kill zone at 100 yards, as can many of the people I shoot with.  We regularly line up pieces of gravel, often smaller than 1" on the top of a steel bar gate and shoot them off at 110 yards.  It is all about practice, and knowing the ballistics of the projectiles you're shooting."

When you *know the range,* yes! No doubt. No problem.

I'm talking about in the field. Rangefinders don't work reliably enough to rely on them when a ten-yard difference means 2" of drop. They don't work fast enough when you're shooting at game, at least if your game moves.

For every shot that's hit a ground squirrel at 100Y there are 10 or 20 that missed or wounded it. That's what I'm talking about.

In any case, you're right that .218 slugs might shoot better in my liner. When FX released their "hybrids" (which are really just HP slugs with a dent in the rear), I thought, "These are guaranteed to be the best ammo for my FX rifles."

FWIW, that 10-20 missed or wounded rate would be unacceptable for me too.  We don't have ground squirrels here, but most places where I shoot, I've already ranged a bunch of objects prior to shooting.  As I mentioned, I don't disagree with you, and I don't take shots that I don't know I can make  

I think the .218 sample packs may be worth your effort with the slug liner.  The power plenum is pretty inexpensive for those guns(if yours is one of the variations that it will work on).  I think you could get the lighter weight slugs up in speed pretty easily, and the FX slugs may surprise you once that speed gets up too?  Also, shooting various non living targets at long range is really fun and addictive with an air gun.  I went from being able to hit stuff at 100 yards with pellets to "Wow, I hit that at 150" with slugs.  Now, it has turned into "Wow, I hit that at 300 yards" and farther!  It is a hoot to me popping cans, pill bottles, and other random stuff at very long ranges with an airgun.  I think it is the challenge of it I enjoy so much  

[PaulFWI]

300Y? I can't imagine the drop at that range...

I already had my rifle professionally tuned. It shoots 26gr Hybrids at 900 FPS. It only gets around 25 shots per fill at that power level. It has the power plenum installed. I can't imagine it's possible to get these or other slugs to 1000+ FPS - or that accuracy would be better.

But who knows.

At this point my Mk1 Wildcat in .25 is still my favorite gun. It shoots 33.95gr pellets extremely accurately. To 60Y, it is deadly. I killed a fox with it two years ago.

I shoot it much more than either my DreamPup or .30 Crown Laminate, which is insanely accurate (with pellets).

[JungleShooter]

300y? I can't imagine the drop at that range....

You won't have to, no problem. 😄
ChairGun will tell you:

Gun zeroed at 100y:
▪To compensate for the drop @ 200y you'll need about 7mil =24moa of elevation adjustment.
▪For the drop @ 250y you'll need c. 11mil =39moa.
▪For the drop @ 300y you'll need c. 18mil =63moa give or take.


🔶 That sounds very reasonable!
Because:
(1) Most sub-$500 scopes with 24x or more at the top end have at least 18mil =60moa of elevation adjustment.
And some have 24mil =80moa.

(2) And even the FFP scopes show at max. magnification enough reticle hash lines for an additional 7mil =23moa of holdover.

(3) We'll assume that the adjustable scope mounts got the scope to about 6mil or 20moa above the bottom of the elevation turret setting for the 100y zero.


➔(4) That would give us — in the worst case and just dialing the elevation — a shot out to 250y.
And adding the holdover we can get out to 300y, no prob.  😄


Matthias


PS: Now, where do I get a gun with 55FPE...?!?  🤣

[PaulFWI]

So this is predicated on know the range very accurately, yes? 300 vs. 320 yards is a BIG difference, right?

Do you shoot using mil lines or adjusting elevation? I'm honestly curious.

I agree that would be very fun as a hobby. For hunting game in the real world, though, for me, no. I'd rather just get closer.

[Rallyshark]

Good info Matthias!  You forgot one other important element, adjustable rings/bases.  FX no limit rings are a solid option, and there's Sportsmatch, along with a few others.  A gun with 55fpe ain't no problem either, haha.  Although, my longest shot was with a .177 slug gun at 34 fpe

Paul, I was thinking this whole time your Dreampup was .22, my bad there.  In that case, you'd definitely need the 700mm slug liner and barrel port upgrades as well.  Still, I see your point on shot count and power.  The ranging does become more important the farther you go, and slugs certainly make it much more possible to even think about.  On one of my guns, I'm using FX no limit rings, and a 3-18x scope, and on the other I'm using Burris XTR rings(which have less elevation adjustment than the FX rings).  That gun wears a 5-20x scope.  I usually use a combo of dialing and holdover at the really long distances. 

The longest shot I've made was actually with my .177 shooting 15.5 grain slugs around 1000 fps, if you can believe that!  It was a 1 liter pepsi at 400 yards.  At that range, I used a full one, so I could tell for sure that I hit it.  When I did, it sent a stream of pepsi shooting about 20 feet in the air,lol!  I prefer to shoot with MOA scopes myself, and that was pretty much the limit on that gun.  I dialed up and was using every bit of the reticle marks to hit the target.  That scope has hash marks numbered all the way down to 50 MOA.  I also shot one at 380 yards with the .22 using 24.8 grain slugs at 1000 fps.  I could probably do a little farther with the .22, if I tried.  That would definitely not be a first shot hit by any stretch.  Those distances are just to say I did it.  It is really fun in the 200-300 yard range though!  It is really fun to push yourself and your gun on the super long range stuff(for an air gun)! 

I have PB that will do those distances no problem(22-250, 7mm RM, etc.), but it is a lot more fun with the air guns, and way less expensive.

[PaulFWI]

Short on time now, but my Pup IS .22. I also have a Mk1 Wildcat in .25 that is pretty much my favorite gun.