Benjamin Pumper for today and Seneca Dragonfly

[Gman414]

Hi all,   I am a new member and currently have a Crosman 1322 with a few mods: FTP and 14.6 barrel. This little pistol/carbine still lacks power at 10 pumps and I don't want to have to pump it 30 or more times to get power. So many people spend hundreds of $$$ on aftermarket mods to make the Crosman pumpers better and more powerful airgun.  I spent the last few days reading about Bob's (rsterne) great work on the Millennium pumper and Disco pumper. Simply Awesome!! Like many who commented on Bob's post, I love the fact he used mostly all Crosman and Benjamin parts. I am stunned Crosman does not do themselves a big favor and build Bob's guns. With the introduction of the Seneca Dragonfly, Crosman needs Bob's ideas to advance the Benjamin 39X line. I'm not a Benjamin or Crosman historian but I think the majority of this forum would tell the company to upgrade these rifles. If your look at current airguns Bob's ideas with the addition of a synthetic stock  and Marauder breech would put Crosman back on top of the pumper market again with minimal costs. 
   The second thought is to incorporate these improvements into a P-rod sized removable stock backpacker. The "Benjamin Backpacker".  Crosman should use the Marauder breech in .177, .22, and .25. "MOVE THE PRODUCT UPSCALE". Add it to their custom shop starting at about $150. If Crosman added options like: shrouded barrels (marauder or trail style), choices in triggers, standard open sights, fiber optics sights, or scope optics all to fit an 11mm dovetail or picatinny (No proprietary dovetail &^^&). I think this could sell for up to $350.
    I would buy one of each, rifle and pistol/carbine.
Bob, if you are out there. Do you have any guess at what kind of numbers (velocity and F.P.E) a pistol / carbine with a 14" barrel would produce in .177, .22, .25? How many people on this forum would purchase these product?
  What do all you think?

[anti-squirrel]

Though I'm sure Crosman could go in the direction you point out, it is probably far easier for them to churn out dozens of gas-piston break-barrels at a significantly greater profit than building boutique pumpers only a tiny slice of the airgun market is willing to spend the money on.    I'm not knocking your idea in the slightest, mind you.  I think it's a great idea.  But I also feel Crosman would do us a favor by offering a Maximus pistol and such an animal has yet to appear.  For the moment, I think the closest us enthusiasts get are the CCS builds.  Kinda sad we have to rely on SPA for a modern production-run pumper (Snow Peak makes the Seneca Dragonfly).

As such, I feel I should add that Crosman is not really innovating.  A quick glance to the EU and Asia reveals where innovation comes from.

There's an aftermarket breech found on Amazon for 13xx/2240 and the Disco platforms that offers a sidelever action, takes MRod magazines, and is sized for the Marauder shroud.  This breech costs $153.

[rsterne]

It's an interesting idea, I guess.... A modern pumper carbine, incorporating retained air to make a repeater breech sensible.... By that I mean, if you have to pump between every shot, loading a pellet is a small annoyance.... However, if you can take 2 or 3 shots before you have to pump again, then some sort of repeater mechanism makes sense for the hunter.... Basically what you are building is a PCP Carbine with an onboard pump, and the problem is the weight penalty of doing that....

If you started with a PRod (which uses a 2260 length tube) you could probably adapt the pump mechanism from a 13XX/2289, beef it up to handle the larger tube, and move it forward to allow for a small reservoir to give you multi shots.... What you would end up with, functionally, is my Disco Carbine.... https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=37401.0

Bob

[Gman414]

Peter (anti-squirrel):  Yes I thought the same way you do about Crosman until this last year when they came out with some innovative products. With new products like the DPMS SBR, Benjamin Fortitude, and the Benjamin pump. Add to that moving the Marauder to the custom shop.  Moving a premium gun to the custom shop shows me they are learning the public will pay for customization. Innovation like building a pumper family line which can shot 3 or more times before needing the 6 to 12 pump cycle to refill. I may be wrong but I don't think such a product will be "boutique". Who likes to spend all the extra money on air tanks and big expensive pumps. The Nova Freedom/ Seneca Aspen is the start of this trend. Additionally you prove my point with the Amazon breech product. Crosman should capitalize on all this money spent to modify their pumper products. if you can produce more base products from the same production line and increase the prices, a better Crosman 13XX from $59 to $150+, Benjamin 39X from $179 to the $300 to $350 price point. Why is that boutique? People want things to be easy, compact, and inexpensive.
Bob:  Do you think combining the two products into one tube size would work? Would that not help reduce on the cost side?  Reduce parts inventory. Make production easier and less expensive. Just my thoughts!

[Hobbyman2007]

I’ve been toying with the idea myself . I have a 392 with a steroid kit installed . It’s a real pleasure to shoot but pumping up to 10 times between shots is a deal breaker when hunting . When Bobs millennium pumper was going to be produced by a fellow member there was a lineup even with the high price tag . We all know how that ended up . If the Seneca aspen was available here in Canada I’d probably have one . And for the price point I think I’d rather buy that then something from crosman . It’s pretty clear that crosman is happy providing status quo instead of leading the pack like they did 30 years ago . It’s too bad but that’s the world we live in .

[rsterne]

Going to a 3/4" ID tube is probably not possible with 13XX/2289 guts, as the area (and force) increases by 44%.... The Benji tube, however, is a bit larger than 3/4", so sliding down to that ID would make a slight increase in pressure possible without overstressing the 39X linkage, which is what I did in the Disco Carbine....

Bob

[anti-squirrel]

Peter (anti-squirrel):  Yes I thought the same way you do about Crosman until this last year when they came out with some innovative products. With new products like the DPMS SBR, Benjamin Fortitude, and the Benjamin pump. Add to that moving the Marauder to the custom shop.  Moving a premium gun to the custom shop shows me they are learning the public will pay for customization. Innovation like building a pumper family line which can shot 3 or more times before needing the 6 to 12 pump cycle to refill. I may be wrong but I don't think such a product will be "boutique". Who likes to spend all the extra money on air tanks and big expensive pumps. The Nova Freedom/ Seneca Aspen is the start of this trend. Additionally you prove my point with the Amazon breech product. Crosman should capitalize on all this money spent to modify their pumper products. if you can produce more base products from the same production line and increase the prices, a better Crosman 13XX from $59 to $150+, Benjamin 39X from $179 to the $300 to $350 price point. Why is that boutique? People want things to be easy, compact, and inexpensive.
Bob:  Do you think combining the two products into one tube size would work? Would that not help reduce on the cost side?  Reduce parts inventory. Make production easier and less expensive. Just my thoughts!

I concur 100%.  Only reason I say it is boutique is because the small group pf us here want more... But we are the minority.  I think most every-day buyers are trending toward the 1400FPS break-barrels and CO2 replicas. 

Crosman isn't innovating like they were.  What they offer now are refinements.  Evanix, FX, SPA, Kral and Hatsan- all of them are offering really new ideas.  Evanix has their new repeaters, FX and their smooth-twist ultra-adjustable actions with barrel swapping by design, SPA has a PCP with the airtube surrounding the barrel to yield a superb appearance...  SPA's PP700 pistol by itself is relatively revolutionary: everything adjustable with a hammer-cocking exposed breech.

When you look at the Crosman offerings, the current crop of "new" is more like "refinements" of existing ideas.  With the deep pool of talent and the ability to modify their guns, you'd think they pool some engineering resources and see what type of magic can happen.  A better pumper carbine, a Maximus single-shot pistol, maybe a semi-auto repeater that is NOT the Wildfire.

[Gman414]

Well guys here is some news for all of us. I was able to contact Phillip Guadalupe at Velocity Outdoor formerly Crosman/Benjamin. During the email exchange, we discussed the new innovations and he was very receptive to Bob's multi-shot pump rifle. He likes the concept. We discussed the possibilities of making the rifle an eight shot (one magazine) capable rifle or carbine/pistol of Marauder design. Phillip stated "I think if done right and at the right price it could eventually bridge the gap between the consumers who buy break barrel and those who step in to the realm of PCP Airguns."  Mr Guadalupe stated Velocity Outdoor is currently searching for design engineers. I think with Velocity Outdoor recent new ownership we will see a lot of changes in the next few years. If anyone is looking for a job at Velocity contact the Human relations department in NY. I hope there is someone in the forum who is interested in a new job.

[Tack Driver 10]

Going to a 3/4" ID tube is probably not possible with 13XX/2289 guts, as the area (and force) increases by 44%.... The Benji tube, however, is a bit larger than 3/4", so sliding down to that ID would make a slight increase in pressure possible without overstressing the 39X linkage, which is what I did in the Disco Carbine....

Bob

A multi shot pumper should be a piece of cake for a large company with engineering and manufacturing resources.

Here's my effort similar to Bobs gun but used a 140 pump arm with a 7" stroke.
The balanced valve would be a good addition.
It's called the MF-DHP, (Magnum Force Dirty Harry Pumper)
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/thegreencrosmanforum/the-mf-dhp-will-rock-your-world-do-you-feel-lucky-t48451.html

Then there's the MF-DHPs rotund little brother, aka The Chubby.
Uses a 3/4" ID MK tube with a 4" stroke.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/thegreencrosmanforum/xcuse-me-while-i-whip-out-my-big-fat-american-chub-t48150.html#p300798

[Back_Roads]

 

[Gman414]

Hi Ron I think your right on the money with Velocity outdoor having the ability to produce a pumper similar to your "Chubby" or Bob's Disco pumper.  If I read the main points of Mr Guadalupe's emails with me correctly. They go like this. First is the design of the product. If you look at all the new non PCP products from shot show the least few years almost every new product has to look like a clone firearm.  Whether it is a replica of something from the past or a copy of a current handgun. It looks like this is the direction the manufacturer and the consumers are going. Even I am guilty of buying form over function because my kid wanted the cool looking one over me preferring function first. Presently, in the house is a M4-177 pumper because "That one looks cool and I don't have to load all the time." even though the 2100 is a better shooting rifle. Follow that up with a Crosman SBR two years later. The kid had some good points. The second point was producing these cool looking guns at low cost. I am not an engineer or a machinist but I do know brass and stainless steel are the best materials to use. The down size is the cost of materials and the amount of machining time. Can these guns we want be made to sell at a price point of $150 -$300 and can we make them look kid cool too?