What is a reasonable accuracy expectation for a high-end .177 PCP?

[Smaug2]

I have my 1st gen Marauder in .177 that has been a good gun.

I am thinking of buying a new PCP airgun mid next year. Time to start planning. I was thinking of a .22 or .25 bullpup, but I just don't have any way to justify the bigger caliber.

What I think I'd like to get is a higher-end .177, preferably a bullpup that will deliver 20-25 FPE with superb accuracy. I do understand the wind throws around the little .177 more, but if we eliminate that variable, what kind of group size can I expect at 50 yards? I'm hoping for sub-1/2" or better.

Budget will be under $2k, including scope.

Some of my favorites don't seem to be made in .177; only .22 or .25. If I have to settle for one of those, fine. The reason I'm leaning toward .177 is that I shoot field target sometimes, and larger calibers are a DEFINITE disadvantage and ranges are limited to 50 yards anyhow. I shoot out to 100 yards sometimes, just for fun, but it is just plinking.

What are your favorite .177 PCPs, (aside from Benjamins) and what kind of accuracy do they deliver for you at 50 yards?

[farmerjoe99]

I'll have to get out and shoot some new groups on paper to check
but both my .177 FX T12 whsiper and BSA Scorpion SE on a good group
have shot sub 3/4(closer to 1/2in) 10 shot groups at 50yds with just a light breeze.
That is shooting AA 10.3gr pellets at 19.8 and 17fpe respectively.

I am interested to see what people say as I'm considering getting a high end dedicated FT rifle
like steyr or RAW and I would be expecting sub 1/2in groups at 50yds but I wonder how realistic that is?

[marty2]

Check out the 50 yd matches here: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?board=66
The 50 yd matches are below the child gates and posted by sixshootertexan. There are a couple of us that shoot .177.
You can also check out the 30 yd matches here: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?board=18.0
The matches can give you an idea of of what a .177 is capable of.

[Motorhead]

In .177 caliber and using KNOWN accurate pellets in the heavier weights to get that power ( 10-13 grain quite honestly ) your power with accuracy IMO is going to be best in the @19-22 ft lb range.  ( 10 grain stuff @ 900 fps being @ 20 ft lb & 13 grain at @ same velocity @ 24 ft lbs.

Those pellets at those speeds if the barrel pellet match is correct could /should be MOA or less shot in no wind with a competent shooter.
MOA being @ 1" at 100 yards, 1/2" at 50 etc ...

[nervoustrigger]

I think Scott's suggestion of MoA is a good goal to aspire to.  That is, 5-shot groups approximately 1/2" CTC at 50 yards with some high degree of repeatability.
 
It takes a whole lot of qualifiers to set an accuracy expectation for 50 yards using a pellet rifle.  Most if not all of those qualifiers are listed in the preceding replies but I would consider the top 3 to be (in no particular order):
 
1.  wind conditions - Either need dead calm or Jedi knight-like abilities to read the wind if there is to be any hope of nailing MoA groups with any degree of regularity.  Just run some hypotheticals using Chairgun with a 2mph crosswind to see what I mean.  Note that is an imperceptible amount of wind without some form of instrumentation.
 
2.  shooter - Certainly assuming a stable rest (e.g. bags on both the forestock and buttstock) but there is still a measure of shooter influence involved with the hold and trigger release.
 
3.  pellet selection - Not just brand and type (e.g. JSB 10.3gr), but certain batches will do much better than others.
 
But just to lend some perspective...
 
We all like to post our best groups, and there are surely some stellar ones in the mix that can easily give the wrong expectations about what is feasible to do with consistency.  Look up Bob's (rsterne) 5-in-a-dime challenge to get a sense of a more realistic expectation.  The challenge is five (5) 5-shot groups at 50 yards, all groups covered by a dime, on one sheet of paper with no other holes or anything covering the paper.  That is an ever so slightly more forgiving standard than MoA (assuming the use of .177 cal) and yet there have been very few to achieve it.

[Tomg]

100% with Nervoustrigger.

Cherry picking groups are just that, picked, not the norm.
The problem with setting expectations, especially since we do not know anything about the shooters ability, wind conditions, or any other equipment, is that it can unfairly fuel the argument that there is something wrong with rifle, when the groups doesn't meet the expectations.

[Ribbonstone]

Don't blame caliber directly for windage...it's about pellet BC.  Two pellets with the same BC, even if of different calibers/weights, get blown about by the wind equally.  BUT, larger calibers tend to better BC's than smaller (at lest until the recent availability of some very nice super-heavy weight .177's).

Besides...the wind always has an effect, it never seems to be truly dead-calm....it's how well you can estimate what it will do to a pellet's flight that seems to make the real difference.

Maybe I'm jaded.  Good barrels are wherever you find them. Will give higher priced PCP's marks for hadly ever letting a really bad barrel out the door, but when it comes to really good barrels, I'd not automatically bet on the higher priced barrel.

[Smaug2]

...so the consensus is that 1/2" @ 50 yds. is indeed considered realistic and good. I've never yet shot a group that tight, but it's probably because I just don't feel right shooting the guns with 100% support. It just feels like cheating to me. I know, I have to get over it to find out how good the gun is. After that, I know who to blame.

How about recommendations for a quiet, accurate, bullpup .177? Is there such an animal that isn't a custom Marauder?

[Rallyshark]

I'm probably going to catch some flack for suggesting this, but Hatsan Gladius and Bullboss are the first two that come to mind in .177 pups.  It is way under your budget, and they are not on the same level as some of the high end .22/.25 pup options out there.  However, they are pretty accurate(usually capable of 1/2" at 50yards), quiet, and capable of pushing any heavy .177 pellet you can cram in them...  The Gladius is little nicer than the Bullboss, but the Bullboss is a little lighter/rougher.  I have zero regrets about getting my Bullboss FWIW. 

Now, If I had that budget, and wanted a pup, I would make the move to .22 just to get my hands on some of the "nicer" guns out there.  Some at the top of that list for me would be the Taipan Mutant, Cricket, Vulcan bullpup and tactic, and FX Wildcat to name a few. 

[rsterne]

Not within your budget, but if you want to see what a high end .177 can do, check out the Thomas Benchrest rifles.... http://www.thomasrifles.com/br-rifle.html

Bob

[anti-squirrel]

The Orion bullpup gets high marks in every review I've watched.  Alvaro Lopez has a great review on the one he tested.  They also can be had to a little over $600 straight from Spain.  Consider this- regulated, sintered air filter, hammer-forged barrel, and shrouded.  They have a somewhat ugly "stock" but very few bullpups have legit wood furniture.  The Kaliber air-rifles and of course the Mutant also come to mind- but at almost double the cost of the Orion. 

Likewise the Kral Puncher Breaker- shipped to your door sans shroud or LDC for not-quite $600 from Krale. 

I know these are way under the radar for most people.  But for basic shooting, both can be had very inexpensively, which leaves a lot more room for tuning, hushing, finding the favorite pellet, and good glass.  I'll add I was going to get one of these two until my wife pointed out she liked the PP700 pistol.  Getting her shooting takes precedence over everything.

[Smaug2]

'seems like going to .22 or .25 is the next logical step for me, whether it's PCP or a gas piston springer.

[Motorhead]

Had this picture handy from a previous post on another forum ...
Shown is a group from a Taipan Mutant .22 caliber bullpup at 50 yards !
the lower 12 shot group is under a 1/2" which would be SUB MOA accuracy FWIW 



While .22's buck the wind better, an equally capable .177 cal PCP will do just as well and likely even better in ideal shooting conditions.

[ancient1one]

'seems like going to .22 or .25 is the next logical step for me, whether it's PCP or a gas piston springer.

Smaug2 I could not agree more. Main reasons are, you have a 177 your happy with. A 22 cal shooting 30+ fpe will buck the wind a lot better than a .177, days with 10 -15 mph winds you will reach for your .22 cal. When you want to reach out past 50 - 55 yards you will reach for the .22.

22 cal pellets cost about the same as .177 where the .25's cost about 40% more than both 22/177. A .22 will be less in the sound department compared to the .25.

Buy one of the high end bullpups with a LW or CZ barrel and your almost guaranteed sub 1/2" groups at 50 yards. Cricket, Mutant, Vulcan or an Edgun would be my bullpup recommendation. A couple of new Crickets are listed in the classified on some forums for $1000 shipped. An Edgun just sold for $950 shipped. Mutant Shorties can be found new for $1165. Good luck and have fun shopping..