35 versus 50 yards.

[north country gal]

Joani,

Is your HW97k stock? What is your pellet weight and velocity? Those are outstanding groups - I am impressed!

Yes, stock all the way, but I will say that even as HWs go, this Blue Laminate was especially good right out of the box with H&N FTTs, 8.64s. Definitely outshoots our new ProSport, but that one is still a work in progress. I'll get it to come around. The Blue HW97K, though, I regard as one of those luck of the draw kind of guns we all get, once in awhile. Did give it another try, after I shot the Prosport, yesterday and even with the wind, I did manage to print a couple of sub one inch groups 50, but this time, I definitely played the wind. Just needed to know I could still do it.

[north country gal]

   Big difference when you were shooting with the wind at your back then a crosswind but you know that. the crosswinds are real hard
[/quote]
Oh, definitely. Our range is setup so that I have to shoot at a very slight downhill angle.Tail winds end to push the pellet, low. All told, though, I can usually do better with a tail wind than a head wind.

[wahoowad]

Thanks. I have been eyeing one of those for some time, although you get the credit, not the gun.

I have good days and bad days shooting my springers. Today was not so good.

Do you mind sharing your shooting technique? Rest (sand bag? open palm?)? Any special shoulder/cheek weld technique to stay consistent? Trigger pull?

Thanks!

[north country gal]

Thanks.

Not sure how much help it would be, since I tend to work with each gun as an individual and work up a hold that it likes the best and, of course, what works for me may be of little use to someone else. This custom approach for each gun takes a lot of patience, but have not had much luck with the one hold/one rest fits all approach, even with springers of the same brand.

As for the Blue HW97K, this one I can rest directly on the bag out on the forearm. Some guns I can't, but this one seems quite happy with it. No contact with the gun with a second bag, though. Instead, the second bag supports my offhand which, in turn, supports the gun under the toe of the stock (bottom corner). The buttstock just touches my shoulder at that point, only, me making sure I am not pushing my shoulder into the gun. That little bit of contact, though, does a lot to steady those crosshairs. As for my trigger hand, I cradle the gun under the trigger guard very lightly. I do not wrap it around the pistol grip. Very tip of my finger on the trigger, very careful to do it the same way every time.

Before each shot, regardless of what hold or what springer, I do slide the gun back and forward a bit to make sure the gun and crosshairs will be moving directly in line with the target when it recoils. I feel this is very important for a springer. The gun must recoil in the same way and direction for every shot.

The position of those crosshairs after the shot tells me a lot. I know I've made a good shot when I can see the crosshairs return to the same spot on the target after the gun recoils. If the gun bounces away from that original POA after the shot is over, I know I didn't get the gun rested just right or that I blew the follow through. Can use this very effectively to call my shots.

Of course, this all sounds pretty involved, but it's gets to be automatic with practice. Other guns, though, I have to use a different rest.

[HectorMedina]

Hiya Gal and Guys!

Thank you all for your kind words.  One never stops learning in this airgunning thing, always something more to learn every day.

Also thanks for what JB very correctly terms "sanity". In the US we tend to think of airguns as just a slightly different version of a shooting iron, it's natural, we have access to a lot of very interesting things that in some countries would be deemed quite "revolutionary".

And we also tend to forget how very accurate airguns can be when judged in relation to powder burners under a properly arranged scale factor.

If you are familiar with High Power rifles, and you look up the Time of Flight that bullets shot from "normal" cartridges have, you can see that the scale factor is about 10 to 1, if you see the Magnums, then you are up to about 13-15 to 1, if you go to the SuperDuperMagnums (0.338"  LAPUA, or 0.416" Barrett, or the likes) you will see that sometimes you can reach scale factors of 20 to 1 (specially with some of the SLAP rounds). So, bearing those factors in mind, shooting an airgun at 50 yards is just as hard as shooting a HP rifle at 500, and the difference between 35 and 50 yards is also about the difference between 350 and 500 yds in the use of a HP.
BPCR are a little bit different, but normal loads put the scale factor at around 8.

Now, one thing that gets lost in this scale thing is that extreme ranges do have a way of "smoothing out"  extremely local conditions (like the "leaf devils"  Joanie talks about). Shooting under a 30 mph wind with an airgun is like shooting in a hurricane with a PB.

Hitting a 2"  skeets at 100 yards is about the same as hitting a man-sized torso (20") at 1,000 yds with a 0.308" Win (almost the same as the 7.62X51 NATO). And you can ask any professional sniper how hard that is.

Now, one thing I do need to add is that all the reasons and comments posted here is why some of us like Field Target. You shoot at a variety of UNKNOWN distances, at targets that not all have the same size "kill zone", under conditions that change shot to shot and, usually, the range itself swings from one direction to another, so that there is no way you can put in some "basic windage" into your sight-in  and just hold off a little more or less for varying strengths of the wind. In some FT ranges, the courses are setup like a "fan", you start with the wind from 10 O'clock and you end up with the wind coming from 5 O'clock.
So, each shot has to be estimated and taken, then misses corrected for the second shot; AND, in the International version of the game, you get one shot per target. In the US we play it with two shots per target, so SOME correction for the second shot is possible but, interestingly enough, scores do not seem to reflect this. Peculiarities of the human mind.
If you like this type of challenge, do try FT sometime.

Lastly, as to the shapes of the group:

Squarish groups tell us that there is a VERTICAL component to the HORIZONTAL drift; and it is normal for most pellets. Some more, some less, but pretty normal. What is completely ABNORMAL, is that the vertical component relates to the horizontal one in an INVERSE way than it does with bullets from firearms. In the long range rifle game, most people know the rule "10 to 4"  meaning that with a wind from the left, bullets impact at 4 O'clock, not at 3, and with winds from the right bullets impact at 10 O'clock, not at 9 (at least for right handed twists).
In the WAISTED pellet world, it goes the other way around, wind from the left will take the pellet up, while wind from the right will take it down, so the "normal" rule in the pellet world is "8 to 2".
Of course updrafts and downdrafts can also have an effect, and head on/tail winds also have an effect.

Learning what YOUR gun with YOUR pellets will do is part of the fun of pursuing this insane hobby of ours.

 

Have fun, keep well and shoot CURVES (only in the wind!)






Hector Medina

[north country gal]

Hector, bless you for sharing. Makes me feel good to be able to shoot nice groups at 50 yards at all. Not to worry, though, I get such a thrill when I do, that I am hooked for good. You know, when I got back into air guns, big time, a few years, back, I had it in mind to compare air rifle at 50 yards to rimfire at 50 yards, all with the hope that I could back up my rimfire shooting at 50 with some AG shooting. Turns out that the rimfire shooting is now the backup. Much more interesting game with the AG shooting.

[HectorMedina]

My pleasure, Joanie;

As a footnote:
When I tried to reach a scale factor between RF's and Airguns I ran into a serious problem: You need TOP NOTCH RF's to even approach the level of accuracy that current airguns routinely give us from the mid-price point upwards.
And when dealing with RF's you run into another problem: Ammo. TOP NOTCH ammo does not guarantee even average performance.

Just as in airguns, some ammo will do well in some guns, and terribly in another. Rim gauges, concentricity indicators, accurate balances, metal uniformity probes, and some even more esoteric things.
And finding the right ammo down to the lot number costs a LOT more than doing that with airgun pellets.

In the end, when talking about averages, the scale factor I ended up with was about 2:1

But that factor can be swayed substantially on the PCP's with a little quality and engineering on the airgun side to be almost even.

On the spring gun side, a lot more is still upon the shooter's shoulders, and that is why I guess we are all in love with our "sproingers".

Keep well and shoot straight!




Hector

[AmBraCol]

Long range is subjective.  Some folks think 25 yards is "long range" for an airgun.  Your thread on shooting the 953 at 50 yards is a good one, too.  "Perfect conditions" are not easy to come by, but when they DO come together it's fun to see what can be done.  A sub-inch group at 50 meters with a Baikal IZH 46M is probably my best long range shooting with a pellet gun to date.  Even with a LOT of "kentucky windage" the group was well below my aim point, but it was there.  Sure wish I'd gotten a picture of it, but didn't.  The velocity was so low by the time the pellets got there that one of them was stuck in the cardboard backing.

Two years ago at the nationals in Guarne I was shooting a Gamo CFX with a Leapers 3-12X44 SWAT scope on it.  Conditions were "less than ideal", to say the least.  They'd set wind flags out at different distances, but the bullet stop baffles at different ranges along with the semi-enclosed range made for some very crazy wind conditions.   The flags would be blowing left to right at one range and right to left further out.  Still managed to pick up third place in the springer division after the mainspring broke on my rifle and ended up finishing up the round with the same scope on an old 10 meter spring gun I had along.  All I know for sure is that any shot I made out past 20 meters was pure luck that day. 

Doping the wind is something that takes time and effort to learn well.  One can read all the forums one wants and learn to do the math for wind drift at different wind speeds and pellet profiles, but until one's put in the time at longer ranges one will not really know how to handle windy conditions.

Thanks for posting your experiences with us.  And to Hector and all the others on the forum that give us great insight and information.  This is a great place to hang one's @.

[rayandkerry]

Before each shot, regardless of what hold or what springer, I do slide the gun back and forward a bit to make sure the gun and crosshairs will be moving directly in line with the target when it recoils. I feel this is very important for a springer. The gun must recoil in the same way and direction for every shot.

The position of those crosshairs after the shot tells me a lot. I know I've made a good shot when I can see the crosshairs return to the same spot on the target after the gun recoils. If the gun bounces away from that original POA after the shot is over, I know I didn't get the gun rested just right or that I blew the follow through. Can use this very effectively to call my shots.

Of course, this all sounds pretty involved, but it's gets to be automatic with practice. Other guns, though, I have to use a different rest.

I have a gamo (whisper fusion, I think), my only springer and it kicks back pretty hard.  I tried to shoot well with that thing for a long time.  Tuned it, put in a CDT trigger (which is nice), tried every pellet I could find, tried every hold I read about... All made some improvements, but i still could never get good groups on a consistent basis.  Like a 1" group at 10 yards about 50% of the time was the best I could get.   

All the other times had a couple/few fliers in a 10 shot group.  It's just sitting on the shelf now...I just shoot my avanti 753 and my disco lately.  I'm wondering if it's just me or the gun.  Someday I'd like to try another one with a bit less power and a bit higher quality perhaps and see if I can do better.  I really liked the feel of getting off a good shot with the kinda hold you have to do...but it was just so painfully inconsistent I had to move on.  Digging my avanti and disco, though 

[north country gal]

My experience with the affordable gas rams at that power level was limited to a first generation Benjamin Nitro XL. The ONLY way I could tame that beast and get any consistency with it was to use HEAVY 177 pellets - 10.5s as a minimum - and lock myself into an almost death grip as far as hold. With a light artillery hold, the gun would practically fly out of my hands. Really a prime example of one hold does not fit all when it comes to springer guns. Also, the gun ate the cheap Counterpoint scope that came with it in 50 shots. Sold it with no regrets because I simply didn't need that kind of power for target work and that's the only shooting I do.

Have zero experience with Gamo, but if it's accuracy you want and ease of shooting, you might explore a way to drop the power level. Not sure what the options are in a Gamo,  but if you can trim the power level, down, you might get a more accurate shooter and a sweeter one in the bargain. Best of luck.

[rayandkerry]

My experience with the affordable gas rams at that power level was limited to a first generation Benjamin Nitro XL. The ONLY way I could tame that beast and get any consistency with it was to use HEAVY 177 pellets - 10.5s as a minimum - and lock myself into an almost death grip as far as hold. With a light artillery hold, the gun would practically fly out of my hands. Really a prime example of one hold does not fit all when it comes to springer guns. Also, the gun ate the cheap Counterpoint scope that came with it in 50 shots. Sold it with no regrets because I simply didn't need that kind of power for target work and that's the only shooting I do.

Have zero experience with Gamo, but if it's accuracy you want and ease of shooting, you might explore a way to drop the power level. Not sure what the options are in a Gamo,  but if you can trim the power level, down, you might get a more accurate shooter and a sweeter one in the bargain. Best of luck.

Thanks.  I did look into it, but no lower power gas rams I could find.  Perhaps I'll keep it for home defense...I could club an attacker with it! LOL

[Skillet]

This post has been really enjoyable and I love the depth of understanding that many contributors bring to the discussions.  I'd like to ask if the "banana barrel" really has any effect on the pellet's flight. 

Some say that a bent barrel is merely a correctional issue and that the pellet flies true at the same direction it leaves the barrel.  The follow-up thought is that there is no real problem with having a bent barrel.

I wonder if a bent barrel, plus the spin of the pellet and the sum of all the various forces acting on our bits of flying lead add up to a biased, or somehow deviated flight path, compared to the same pellet shot from the same gun with a straight barrel. 

I'm breaking in a nice HW35E and the rear sight has to be cranked almost all the way off the the left to hit the target.  Should I attempt to straighten the barrel, using a jig that can surely be found in the GTA library, or should I just enjoy the shooting?

Thanks as always for sharing your ideas on this!

[north country gal]

Will, I have no experience bending barrels, but I'm sure there are folks, here, that do. I'd vote for leaving as is if the gun is shooting to point of aim at the distances you like to shoot. Could be more of an issue if you try to shoot it at longer distances, though.

[HectorMedina]

This post has been really enjoyable and I love the depth of understanding that many contributors bring to the discussions.  I'd like to ask if the "banana barrel" really has any effect on the pellet's flight. 

Some say that a bent barrel is merely a correctional issue and that the pellet flies true at the same direction it leaves the barrel.  The follow-up thought is that there is no real problem with having a bent barrel.

I wonder if a bent barrel, plus the spin of the pellet and the sum of all the various forces acting on our bits of flying lead add up to a biased, or somehow deviated flight path, compared to the same pellet shot from the same gun with a straight barrel. 

I'm breaking in a nice HW35E and the rear sight has to be cranked almost all the way off the the left to hit the target.  Should I attempt to straighten the barrel, using a jig that can surely be found in the GTA library, or should I just enjoy the shooting?

Thanks as always for sharing your ideas on this!

Skillet;

FWB demonstrated quite a few years ago that the ONLY section that matters is the last couple of inches of an airgun barrel:



Of course you need to know HOW to "regulate" a barrel to POA. But it is possible and doable.
It has been done for ages, in guns that cost 10's and 100's of thousands of $ (double/express rifles), it is normally done at barrel factories to "straighten" the BORE, that not always gets drilled EXACTLY through the center axis of the outside of the bar that later becomes a barrel.
Often after a barrel gets straightened it is then turned ON CENTERS to make excellent quality guns.

To repeat:
Proper regulation has NO ill effect on the pellet's trajectory.

Hope this puts at ease your mind.





Héctor Medina