which airgun should I buy?

[sven556]

I posted a similar question over on Airgun Gate and was directed over here.  So, I'm new to airguns and am trying to get setup for target shooting inside my house.  I'm looking for an airgun with peep sights that is accurate and quiet.  I'll be shooting at about 25ft.  My budget is roughly $300.  Of the models I've looked at the HW30 looks pretty decent.  Also SSP rifles were mentioned and the Daisy Avanti line looks nice as well, are these rifles very quiet? 

[jonnnyboy]

The HW30 is a great gun as well as the Avanti.  One more you might look at is the AR2078 which is a QB78 with target stock and peeps.  It comes highly recommended if you would like a co2 gun.  It seems to me that someone won or placed in a hunter field trial with one but I don't remember the particulars.  The 2078 is an accurate gun and easily modded.  And best of all, it comes in at just over half your target price leaving you with money on the table for other goodies.

joe

[daveshoot]

Avanti is a great rifle for your purpose. They have a little bit of splat sound, maybe more than the HW30. They are quite a bit cheaper and I think a little less powerful, which might be good in a 25 foot indoor situation. They are remarkably accurate. They are the same weight (I have the 853), but the Avanti balances differently and feels slightly heavier to me.

Another possibility would be the Russian IZH-60 or 61. If you haven't taken a good look at this one, it should be on your list. I don't have one :-( but you never know!

[AirScopes]

I have a Daisy 953... you might want to think about the 853... or enough 953s that you can shoot with friends...

[sven556]

The AR2078 does look very appealing.  How expensive is it to shoot co2 and is there other equipment I would need?

Between the HW30, Daisy 853, and AR2078; Which would be the most accurate and which would be the quietest? 

Anyone have experience shooting a pellet gun indoors?  How loud does it seem?  I have a feeling it will seem really loud indoors, but hopefully the neighbors won't notice!

[Joshua A.]

the avanti 853 is a 10 meter target gun which seems to be what you are looking for. I have heard really good things about them. Extremely accurate seems to be the choice words of most people i have talked to about them. and its right in your price range, so why not? the 953 looks like the same gun, but if you read into it a little bit, you will find that, that is not necessarily so. it has much better options one of which is the trigger, that is very important if you are looking to do some serious target shooting.

Joshua A.

[sven556]

So the 953 has a better trigger among other things?  Where can I check one out?  I searched google and all I come up with is accessories such as mags.  Also, I was looking at the 853 and 753; is the high comb stock on the 753 the only difference and is it worth an extra $100?

[daveshoot]

Dunno about 753; the appeal of 853 is the Lothar Walther barrel. Believe me, it is accurate. That is a gun I don't shoot enough, but I know if I sell it, I will want it back later and it will cost twice as much. I have yet to do the "Pilkington mods" to the trigger but that is on my project list. Search on those if you are seriously considering the Avantis.

That logic also explains how I ended up with a second safe... 

[ac12]

@Sven,
There is the 853 (wood stock) and the 853CM (composite target stock).
The composite stock of the 853CM is essentially the 953 stock, which is similar to the 753s stock.  For off-hand target shooting, these stocks are IMHO better than the wood stock of the standard 853.  It positions your trigger hand and arm better.
Based on the pix on the Pyramid site, the 853CM looks like it has the same front and rear sights as the 753, which is better than the sight of the base 853.  So you get a better stock and a better sight by upgrading from the 853 to the 853CM.

The 753 has a better rear sight than the base 853, and the front sight setup is better as well.  So you get a better stock and sight.
But between the 753 and the 853CM.  The only difference "to me" is the wood stock of the 753 vs the composite stock of the 853CM.  There may be a difference in the trigger, I don't know because I have not investigated the 753.

The triggers of the x53 series is essentially the same.  And if my 953 is any indication of the 953s in general, the stock trigger is LOUSEY, and you WILL be disappointed.  Mine felt like I was dragging a 2x4 over a rough road.  When they stamped out the trigger sear, they did not clean up the burrs, and it is the burrs that is the problem.  Debur the trigger sear and it becomes a decent trigger.

If you get a 953 and want to shoot it with target sights, you will need to spend $50 to $100 for the sights (depending on options and quality).  I can point you to the parts on Pyramids web site.  But for Daisy parts, you can get a better price direct from Daisy.

re the AR2078.  The MORE you shoot, them more expensive it will be for the co2 cartridges.  But you can buy the cartridges in bulk to get the cost down.  If you shoot a LOT, you will want to look into bulk co2.  I don't know anything about the paintball solution that ^&$@_=s talks about on their web site.  I use commercial 5 and 10 pound co2 tanks with my co2 guns, and that can be expensive, plus a scale to weigh the transferred co2, plus a hydro test every 5 years.  But if you shot a LOT, it will be cheaper than the 12g co2 cartridges.  
BTW I am itching to try an AR2078 and see just how good they are for its reasonable price tag.

For accuracy, the winner is the 853.
The spec of the 2078 says "Accuracy of 0.24 inches c-t-c at 32.8 feet."  1/4 inch accuracy at 10 meters is poor accuracy for a target rifle.  My personal opinion, I think someone made an error, that rifle has to be more accurate than that.  I think even the lowly 953 has better accuracy than that.  
The 853 being a SSP and the co2 powered 2078 do not have the moving mass of the piston and spring of the HW30, so they will have no recoil or vibration, and thus will be easier to shoot more accurately (after you fix the trigger in the 853).

For quiet, I think the HW30 will be the quietest, based on the spring pushing the air out, vs SSP and CO2 where the valve is suddenly releasing the compressed gas.

I shoot my AR and AP indoors, well actually under my house in an enclosed crawlspace.  I did not, but now do shoot wearing earmuffs with my APs or earplugs with my ARs.  The muffs/plugs reduce the sound to virtually eliminate flinching, which is important if you are target shooting.  I doubt your neighbors will hear it, if you keep all the windows closed.


@Dave
Of the 3 trigger mods for the x53 rifles, the only one you really need to do is to debur the trigger sear.  And best of all, that is the easiest of the 3 mods, and the one I did on my 953.

[sven556]

Thanks for explaining the differences.  I'm going to order the 853cm here shortly.  Couple more questions:  I know each gun will have its own preference for a particular pellet but, which types would you recommend me trying?  Also, is there anything else I should order with the rifle?  What will I need for maintenance?  What kind of break in treatment should I go through?

Thanks again you guys are great!

[ac12]

What else to get
- cleaning pellets.  Because the x53 rifles have a very small breach access, I do not think you can't use any of the pull-throughs, so you can only use a cleaning pellet to clean the barrel.  
- get some Goo Gone to clean the barrel.  And be VERY stingy on the amount of Goo Gone you put on the cleaning pellet, you do NOT want it to drip down into the valve.
- get Tom Johnson's sporster booklet
https://estore.odcmp.com/store/catalog/catalog.aspx?pg=product&ID=716&item=&sfv=&cat=BKS&desc=&udc=&mct=&vndr=&ba=&pmin=&pmax=&note1=&note2=&note3=&note4=&note5=&max=
At only $2, the shipping will be more than the booklet.
Lots of good info on taking care of the rifle in that booklet.

Pellets
- For target shooting, I shoot Vogel Sport (their cheaper training/practice pellet) in virtually all my guns.  I use the Vogels when I have shot in matches as well.  I don't shoot good enough to warrant spending the extra money for the expensive match pellets.   http://www.vogelusa.com/  I get mine from Pilkingtons (www.pilkguns.com).
Although at some places there isn't much if any difference between good and match grade pellets.  In those cases I would just get the match grade pellets.
- For plinking, I shoot the cheap Daisy or Crosman pellets from Walmart.   At 10 meters, they shoot "good enough" to hit anything that I want to.
- This is a LOW powered rifle, so if you have  choice get LIGHT pellets rather than the heavy stuff.   The heavy pellets are for guns that have the power plant to push them fast enough.

Things to remember when  you use the rifle.
- When you charge the rifle, do it slowly.  I read that working the charging handle FAST will generate more heat, and that heat can cause damage to some of the seals.
- When you store the rifle, REMOVE the rear sight, and maybe even the front sight.  This is to prevent damaging the sights.  I ALWAYS remove the rear sight from my match rifles when I store or transport them.   I keep the sights in a small plastic box, wrapped in bubble wrap or a small towel.

Just shoot the rifle and have fun.

Things that will/may need work
- FIX the trigger.  There are 3 mods (described in Tom Johnsons booklet), of which IMHO the most important is to debur the trigger sear.  If you don't deburr the trigger sear, the pull will be gritty.  Even if you decide to do all 3 mods, do the deburring of the sear FIRST, as it will reduce the trigger weight by reducing friction.
- I think the LoP is 12 inches.  So if you have a longer LoP, you will need to put spacers under the butt pad.  

Other thoughts
- The neat thing about the x53 rifles is that you cock the hammer separate from charging the air, so you can dry fire to refine your trigger technique w/o firing the rifle.
- Front aperture size.  There are MANY thoughts on selecting the correct size aperture for the front sight.  The one I use is to select a size that is LARGE enough so the bull stays inside the aperture most of the time.  As you get better and your wobble gets smaller you can progress to a smaller aperture.  Do NOT be afraid to change apertures.  On bad days when your wobble is larger, move up to a larger aperture.  

That's it for now.  I will add as I think of other stuff

gud luk and N-joy

[jonnnyboy]

Sven556
"The AR2078 does look very appealing.  How expensive is it to shoot co2 and is there other equipment I would need?"

The 2078 comes equipped to either fill normally through 12gr co2 carts or by bulk filling.  It includes the bulk fill cap and a tether-top for a co2 tank that is used to attach a tank by co2 hardline.  A more convenient way to fill with bulk co2 is to mod that tether-top or just buy &^%$# Bulk Adapter kit that has a tank top that is used to fill the gun's tube and then pressure in the line is released and the bottle is disconnected from the gun.  A lot of guys build their own bulk adapter but Archers is simple and elegant.  I normally use larger 20oz paintball tanks to fill this way.  It costs me about $3 at the local paintball shop to fill the 20oz tanks.

Another option is to go with the 2079 which is slightly more in cost but allows you to attach a 3.5oz co2 tank right to the gun or if you want to use hpa, use a 13ci hpa paintball tank.  I like this system best.  The drawback is that you have to make sure the 3.5oz co2 tank will fit the gun because of its diameter.  Tim at Mac1 carries these co2 tanks for about 30 or 40$ last time I checked but been awhile.  It costs me 2$ to get my 3.5oz co2 tanks filled at the local paintball shop. The 13ci ninja fits mine and works perfectly!  Filled, it will shoot my gun between 75 and 100 shots depending on setup of the gun.  Here is my hunting QB79 setup on the ninja 13ci hpa tank.


I hope this helps. 
joe

[sven556]

okay I finally ordered one, a 853cm along with four different types of pellets.  That should keep me busy for a while.  I measured 35ft wall to wall where I will be shooting.  will this count for 10m matches or is the 10m from the end of the barrel to the target?  Is there someplace I can print targets from?

Now the hard part... waiting for it to get here!

[timegoat]

sven, the short match here is 10yds, so you should be good to go. During the winter I shoot at 10yds inside, in warmer weather and I can shoot outside I do it at 10m. You can get the target here: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,2557.0.html

Wish I could help you with pellets, but I'm not familiar with the rifle you're getting. All I know is my '05 Diana 34 likes RWS Superdomes, H&N Field Target Trophy, and Crosman Premier Hollowpoints. Possibly in that order... working on some tests to see which of those three work the best.

- Mark

[ac12]

In regulation matches, 10 meters is measured from the target face to a line on the floor that your feet does not go over.  
It does not matter that your arm and rifle are sticking out over the line.  And for the AP guys, it does not matter that your arm is sticking out over the line.

You could shoot at an angle, that should gain you a few more feet of space.
BTW 10 meters = 32 ft 9-3/4 in

There are many online sources of targets.  In fact you can download some from this web site specifically for the matches.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/board,17.0.html

[sven556]

I received the rifle today!  Managed to get the sights installed.  ran 1 patch with CLP through the bore and a couple dry patches.  Fired a couple groups.  Trigger is absolutely horrid!! I hope the plinkington mod will fix that.  I was expecting a 3-5lbs rough trigger, but this is worse than any gun I've ever fired!  looong uptake and talk about gritty/rough/uneven pull!  Other than the trigger; I'm pleased so far with the gun. The groups weren't remarkable, they were decent and with today being my first experience shooting diopter sights using whatever inserts were factory installed, but I was satisfied.  I really couldn't measure group size.  I printed targets on regular copy paper and the pellets tore everything to shreads.  I'll have to buy some card stock.

Also the silent pellet trap I built worked extremely well.  I used scrap oak plywood I had and put 9 lbs of seal (it happened to come 9-1lb bars to a box at home depot) inside.  ended up with about 1 1/4" layer of duct seal.  each pellet only went in about the depth of the pellet itself.  I'll see how it holds up over extended use! on the other hand I haven't read any bad things about this trap design yet. 

I think this is just the ticket so I can get more practice time in.  This gun is quiet, the neighbors will never know I'm shooting an airgun inside. 

[ac12]

Sven
Yup same problem I had with my 953. 
Based on my experience, I think your poor groups are directly related to the gritty trigger.  

Deburr the trigger sear first, that might be all you need.  #600 wet/dry sandpaper.  And that is all I did to my 953.  
Well if you want a shorter pull then you will also want to CAREFULLY file the sear to reduce the engagement.  I have a rolling trigger on my match AP, so the long pull does not bother me.

re the trap.  I think what will happen to you, is the same that happened to me.  After you shoot a LOT, the accumulated lead will form a "lead pancake" on top of the duct seal.  If it starts to bounce out, then you know you need to remove that pancake and smoothen out the duct seal.

[daveshoot]

I also find that if you leave the duct seal out in the cold, then bend the whole mess, pellets fall out much easier than when it's warm and sticky. Mine is pretty well hammered into a solid block with no "fault lines" between the putty blocks. I keep mixing target patterns but the pancakes will definitely form.

Stick with that 853, it should be a sweet shooter. The stock trigger will wear in some if you don't undertake the mods right away. I did like that dry fire ability.

I think you made a good choice, but AC is obviously much more experienced with it than I am!

[ac12]

Dave,
You shoulda heard me cussing the trigger the first time I shot my 953.
I normally have a decent hold, but I was fighting that trigger so much that I was totally POed at the rifle.

That was when I researched the trigger modifications.
But being warry about cutting the spring or filing away the sear, I decided the safest and also happened to be the easiest modification was to deburr the trigger sear.  The improvement was SOOOO much better that I decided I did not have to do the other 2 mods.  Especially since this will be a starter/training rifle also, so I do NOT want a light and short trigger on a rifle that I will use for training new kids on.  If it was only mine to shoot, then I might consider reducing the weight.  

About the sear engagement.
Many people do not like a LONG pull.  They feel that the trigger should have a short pull and break like a glass rod.  Well that is the traditional American trigger going back at least to the 1970s.  So those that have been brought up thinking like that will obviously have a preference for it.  
One of the other styles is called a "rolling trigger."  This is when you have a longer pull, where the sear engagement is longer.  And during this longish pull the sear releases and the gun fires.  Some people describe it as a LOT of creep.  I tried it, and I got used to it so much that I now shoot with my match AP set up like that.
Neither is better, just different, and what you get used to.
To me the x53 trigger with the long sear engagement emulates a rolling trigger.

Note: a few things about the trigger mods.
The trigger on the Daisy x53 rifles is NOT a precision match trigger, so don't try to make it one.  There are serious safety issues.
The sportster competition rules set the min trigger pull to 1-1/2 pounds, and even then some people have had reliability/safety problems going below 2 pounds.
I doubt that the trigger sear is hardened.  This means that if you reduce the sear engagement, you have to be VERY careful of wear to the sear, which could cause an accidental discharge.

SAFETY above all.  If the rifle fails the bump test, you made the pull too light or the engagement too small.