Searching for help with Crosman 761XL

[tbbury]

Hi, I'm a newbie here. I did a search on my topic but didn't find anything to answer my questions so here goes.

To further elaborate, I bought a seal kit and started taking the gun apart. The exploded view diagrams are pretty good, but could be much better. Apparently they were created before the dawn of CAD. I'll have to call Crosman and see if they can use a CAD drafter to redraw all of the old diagrams...

When I got to the pivot pin 760-071 and retainer 760-072, it is unclear how to remove these. I cannot find a 761 or 761XL service manual but I did find a 760 service manual that only says to "Remove Pivot Pin Retainer 760-072 and punch out Pivot Pin 760-071".

The problem is it doesn't say HOW to remove the retainer. Do I unscrew it? Do I pry it off? There are no flats like on a hex nut. I tried putting channel locks on both ends and turning in opposite directions to try to unscrew it, bit it didn't seem to do anything. And before I tear it up trying some more I am seeking some advice.
I can't find any pictures on Google images or even ebay to help point me in the right direction. I did find a supplier, but of course, for these parts, there was "no image available".

I'd rather take it apart properly before I resort to more drastic measures.

Please advise. Thanks.

[Stickstoff]

Take note that I've NEVER worked on one of these, I just looked at the EVP parts diagram so this is a guess.
http://www.crosman.com/pdf/manuals/crosman/761XL/C761XL-EVP.pdf

It looks like part 760-071 is a pin and 760-072 is a C clip or E clip and you should be able to either push it from the open side of the C or pry it with a pick from the closed side and have it pop right off.

If this is the type of clip it is and you're not familiar here are a couple of tips. Sometimes it works best to push on the two ends of the C with a flat bladed screwdriver so you don't end up just spinning it around the pin it's on. If you can get a pick in the closed side of the C that works too but sometimes there isn't room. Put a finger over the clip when you remove it so it doesn't go flying. I've probably spent a day of my life looking for various clips and springs over the years...

I could be wrong on this, like I say I'm just going from a diagram, but if I'm right this should get you going.

[Big Bore Bart]

    If it's the round wire type of clip, use a small screwdriver to wedge the ends apart, and then use a pick to lift it out of the groove.     Start at one end and work around the pin, lifting a little at a time at first.

[egillman]

Congrats on the 761XL!  I own one and have rebuilt several.  With the rifled barrel, it will not only look good but also shoot straight.

[tbbury]

Thanks everyone.

No, it is not a c-clip or an e-clip. I am very familiar with both of those. I a going to attempt to attach a photo taken from my phone. It's a bit grainy but I'm sure you'll get the gist.

It looks like a nut, again, but without flats. on either end of the pin you can see a protrusion in the center of the ends. Either left over after machining or possibly the end of a threaded portion of the pin. Also, I can get a fingernail under the edges of both end pieces which also leaves me to believe one or both ends are nuts. Or maybe I'm just nuts. Most likely the latter.

[tbbury]

I called Crosman and their customer service guy had no idea about the parts. "We don't service those guns", he said.

I also emailed JG Airguns, who sells the parts but their catalog has pictures for just about every other part. But the ones I'm interested in, say "No Image Available".
I asked them if they could take pictures of the parts and either email them to me or at lease put them in the catalog so people can see what it is they're buying.

[tbbury]

I'm about to saw of the end of the pin and improvise the replacement.

[Stickstoff]

I'm about to saw of the end of the pin and improvise the replacement.

I can't really tell anything from the picture but is it possible that it's a rivet? If you've got a drill and a dremel it would be easy enough to make a pin to replace it held by c-clips.

[tbbury]

At this point, anything is possible. I will try to unscrew it first. If that doesn't work I'll try prying it. If that doesn't work -  dynamite might!!

[Big Bore Bart]

  Try pushing the outer pieces inwards, one at a time, with a backup on the other end.   One of them should move and will have a wire clip hidden under it,,,,think automotive piston pin.     Otherwise the ends are installed and the pin ends peened over afterwards.

[TooJung2Die]

Thanks everyone.

No, it is not a c-clip or an e-clip. I am very familiar with both of those. I a going to attempt to attach a photo taken from my phone. It's a bit grainy but I'm sure you'll get the gist.

It looks like a nut, again, but without flats. on either end of the pin you can see a protrusion in the center of the ends. Either left over after machining or possibly the end of a threaded portion of the pin. Also, I can get a fingernail under the edges of both end pieces which also leaves me to believe one or both ends are nuts. Or maybe I'm just nuts. Most likely the latter.

I know exactly what you have. My 760 has the same "thingy" going through the roll pin. You are going to cause some unavoidable damage to the retainer when you take it apart. It is a wire that has a cup on each end of the wire. The wire is peened/riveted to hold the cups. You're going to have to pull the wire out of one of the cups, removing the riveted end of the wire.

If you are careful you will have enough of the wire left so you can peen the end of the wire and hold the cup in place.

If all this is too much trouble, leave the retainer off. It's mostly cosmetic anyway.

Jon

[45Bravo]

i also have an original 1972 761xl, that thank goodness still works as it should.

when you posted this thread, i looked at mine, and it does indeed look like 2 e clips should go there, but i am the original owner, and it has never been apart, and there are no clips.

BUT, the exploded diagram i have for the 761xl does show a clip..

I really don't like linking to other forums, but here is a link to a 761 disassembly.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/thread/1112835060/Crosman+761XL+pic

if anyone is interested, owners manual and exploded view of the 761xl is in pdf form below.

[TooJung2Die]

The 761XL evp doesn't show the roll pin retainer. I took a couple of photos of my '75 760 that has the roll pin retainer.

You can see the riveted ends of the wire (or thin rod if you prefer) in the center of the cups that are covering the ends of the roll pin. The only way to get this apart is to carefully grind off one end of the wire where it is peened over. That will leave enough of the wire left so you can peen it back over and hold the cup in place again. The wire is soft, like baling wire, and forming a new head on the end is pretty easy. I know, I did it.

[tbbury]

Thanks again everyone for your input.

Jon (TooJung2Die), Thank you. You are correct in this case. And your pictures look exactly the same as mine. I posted a picture last night but again, from my phone so it wasn't very clear.

Between the two capped ends is rod, about 1/16" in diameter. I'm not sure how they got the caps to stay on, but that doesn't matter anymore. I broke one of the caps off twisting them with channel locks on both ends hoping to unscrew one or the other.

After breaking the cap off, the rod, with the other cap still attached, slid right out. And again, you're right Jon, it looks as though these were purely for aesthetics. The pin inside looked just plain and unseemly.

Well, to sum it up... I got it apart. I will simply replace the retainer with a black #6 screw and capnut and nobody will be the wiser. Since half these parts don't match the diagrams anyway.

I've added a couple of pictures (taken with my phone). They're not very good, but they're a "dang" sight better than the diagrams.

Also, the diagram and parts list I got from www dot crosman dot com/pdf/manuals/crosman/761XL/C761XL-EVP.pdf and the one I got emailed to me from avandruff@crosman dot com shows the retainer and pivot pin.

[K.O.]

This is the kind of thread that make me really like this place...

And I learned sumthin too..

[TooJung2Die]

tbbury,
Glad you figured it out. As we both discovered, there is no really neat way of taking it apart without doing some damage to one end of the rod/wire that joins the end caps. In my case I think I used some soft baling type wire of a similar diameter to replace the damaged rod. I used a fine file to taper the wire ends so they protruded through the holes in the end caps. Then I peened the ends over like a rivet using a small ball-peen hammer. As you can see it looks original. It was probably intended to prevent the roll pin from coming out one side or the other if it loosened up.

I think it is mostly cosmetic so if you want to retain the original appearance replace the little rod with some soft wire.

[tbbury]

One more thing. I have a Crosman 760 Service manual which shows the pin (part number 760-143) without the retainer, in two different drawings. And I have
a "C760 Exploded View Parts & Price List Phase 2" which shows the pin (part number 760-142) without the retainer, but specifies "Replace with 760-071 and 760-072". I've attached the files.

Go figure.

On to my next hurdle... I'll start a new thread for this one.