jds adapter question 13ci tank or 22ci tank ??

[1377x]

i hear you after you told me the first time it could be +/- 100 psi thats what i took into consideration
the burst disk blew as the gun was being filled.does that mean my regulater is stuck? what could it mean?
the regulator tester im building does bleed off
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CO2-ASA-FILL-STATION-ADAPTER-REMOTE-ON-OFF-DEGAS-WHEN-UNSCREW-AMERICAN-MADE-/271025805417?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1a659869

this gauge needs adapter 1/4" npt female to 1/8" npt male adapter.if you believe this gauge wont work,please let me know and if you have any suggestions i'm listening
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Hydraulic-Liquid-Filled-Pressure-Gauge-0-3000-PSI-/261107990546?pt=Pneumatic_Hydraulic_Valves_Parts&hash=item3ccb3fc012

[rsterne]

Your regulator could be stuck, or you could just have too much spring tension and the pressure is more than what the burst disc will take.... I see no reason that ASA adapter and gauge won't work, with a 1/4 - 1/8 adapter in between....

Bob

[1377x]

ok took the regulator apart today inside i found the stack order to be correct and a red shim
going by the gragh that put the regulator @ 1600psi +/-100psi.
being that close to 1.8k the burst disk was sure to blow.
i removed the red shim and put it back together.im going to get a scuba tank on friday to fill the ninja tank.hopefully the parts for the regulator tester will be in soon.
if i replace the burst disk with a 3k burst disk and the tank still blow while filling does that mean there is a problem with the regulator?
what i should do is put it back to stock and fille it with a 1.8k burst disk in place. then if it blows the disk as its being filled there is a problem with the regulator

[Bill G]

I've made internal regs many times before.  If your not familiar with the workings of the disc springs it would be helpful.  You have two ways of stacking them, series and parallel.  Series increases travel while parrallel increases force.  I make mine as flow through regs and apply opposing force principels to get desired closing of the reg at a desired output psi.  This can be a bit challenging when you don't know what the force the springs are capable of.  You may have some of them parallel when it should be series or have differing thickness disc springs paralleled with each other.

That's probably not much help but a good place to start.
Bill   

[1377x]

its helps some
i didnt realize the stacks were parallel and series
similar hooking up speakers in a car audio system.running the speakers in parallel drops the ohms lower creating a louder volume but at the same time it stresses the amp and creates more heat.

what do you mean by flow through regs? does that mean they dump all 3k psi at once?
what is the opposing force principal you are talking about?
iirc the springs force is listed in the description these are the bv washers im using 9713K66
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/118/1229/=jo636o

i have them stacked like rsternes graph shows
))()()()()(( i take it thats p s s s s p ? 

[Bill G]

That all looks correct.  The question I would have is, are all of the disc springs the same gauge?  If they aren't, perhaps you got a mis-match in one or both of the parallel sets.  Just a point to investigate.  Also inspect the inside of the valve body to see if there are any marks that look like ribs.  If the tolerances are a bit loose, this can allow the disc springs to shift incorrectly during a cycle, eventually wearing the inner valve body.  This can ultimatley lead to a sticking reg as Bob suggested.  This is particularly true with the pass through design I make. 

The pass through design is one that allows air to pass through the piston that controls the action.  The piston has a small hole through its axis.  the piston is .5" at low psi end and .250' at the hi psi side.  There are orings at both ends.  The disc springs rest between the orings, around the .250" piston shaft behind the .500" piston head.  There is a valve seat at the small end of the piston usually mounted in an adjustable fixture to allow tuning the reg within designed psi ranges.  The disc springs hold the piston stem off of the valve seat thus allowing air to pass through the piston.  Once the air begins to equalize at the low pressure side, the disc springs are overcome and allow the piston to move toward the hi pressure side.  This allows the small end of the piston to contact the valve seat thus stopping flow.  The regulated psi is the difference between incoming psi minus spring rate at set deflection.  Very simple design but ussually requires a vent to atmosphere to operate reliably for long periods of time.  I'm really surprised that more people don't make them.  The Marauder kind of defeats itself with regaurd to regulating.  The design puts the gauge block in the way of the valve causing a reduced plenum.  That is why you have to mod the gauge block and valve so much to reg the .22.  The .25 is really a waste of time to reg but the .177, I'd say it is a perfect candidate for a reg.  Ive been toying around with a way to keep a gauge for hi pressure reading while still having a reg, which isn't possible with my reg.  Originally, I was trying to come up with one that didn't need to vent but reliability was a Big issue.  This evolved into a design that keeps the gauge for reservoir psi but requires no drilling of the reservoir tube.  The reg really simplifies tuning and efficiency and would be awesome for the marauder of all three calibers if the reservoir where larger and the gauge was relocated.  I'm thinking on that one as well and have a good idea but need to refine it a bit. 

Bill   

[1377x]

the bv washers should all be the same size unless they mixed them up at warehouse or where ever they come from.i did line them all up on the table to see if one was higher than the other and if one was lower.my unscientific measuring leads me to believe they are the same size.
i put the washers on the piston dry.should have i used some silicone grease when installing them?on the piston? or the washers?
 when i did look inside i had this stack order with 1 red shim... ))()()()()((|shim(red).rsterne measured a red shim he has and it came back as .020
according to rsternes graph,that put me at 1600psi which could easily be 1700psi or 1500psi with a 1.8k burst disk
  heres where i am confused
being this close to 1.8k could that be the reason the burst disk blew while filling? what makes a disk burst while filling?
he mentioned he had a disk blow while the tank was at rest.what does that mean? i get that the disks are not accurate and can become fatigued

Burst discs are not very accurate, they have about a 10% tolerance range.... so your 1.8K disc could blow at about 1600 psi.... I had one regulator that I carefully set at 1600 with an accurate gauge and about a week after installing it in a gun, and while it was just sitting on the bench, the disc blew (scared the cr_p outta me!).... I replaced the disc and have never had a problem since.... I have heard that running the tank down to very low pressure (ie well below the setpiont) will shorten the life of the burst disc from metal fatigue, and that seems reasonable.... In addition, as I told you before, that graph was for ONE specific regulator, so when you set up forf 1600, it could easily be 1700.... That plus a burst disc on the low side of the tolerance and WOOOSH!, no more disc.... That graph is for Ninja regulators only, it s NOT intended for other brands, nor do I even know if the other brands are safe at over 850 psi.... If the disc blew only after the pin valve was pushed in, the pin that pushes the valve open may be too long, or you may have assembled it incorrectly.... It shouldn't add any load to the regulator piston....

When you make up your regulator test rig, make sure you have a way to bleed of the air in the ASA valve or you won't be able to remove it.... or it will at least be difficult to unscrew to the point where the O-ring uncovers the vent hole.... When that happens, if the pressure is high, you have a good chance of blowing the O-ring.... NEVER try and remove an ASA that doesn't have a vent hole while it is under pressure....

Bob

the post saying the spring pressure could be too much for the disk to handle

Your regulator could be stuck, or you could just have too much spring tension and the pressure is more than what the burst disc will take.... I see no reason that ASA adapter and gauge won't work, with a 1/4 - 1/8 adapter in between....

Bob

  if i had a 5k burst disk in there would have it bursted? or a 3k for educations sake being the regulator is set to 1500-1700psi
i could understand that if the 1.8k burst disk blew with it being set at 850psi that would indicate a problem with the regulator.

after re-reading mr.sterne's posts, i am under the impression that the 1.8k disk would blow while filling because the output pressure of the regulator was close to the disks pressure rating or higher
 if i put a disk with a higher pressure reading in the output part of the tank it may not blow during filling because it is capable of handling that pressure.
 now if i put a 3k output disk in and it blows that may indicate either a faulty regulator or its close to the 3k pressure rating.i have read the 3k burst disks can blow at 2100psi
 if i put a 5k output burst disk in and it blows thats another story because the input disk is 5k with a 3000psi fill neither should blow unless defective
tell me if im understanding this correctly or not.if not then where am i confused at?
thanks for the time you are all taking to help me understand this better.i know i have a lot more to learn and this is a start

[rsterne]

There is no reason to use more than a 3K burst disc on the output side.... They should not blow below 2700 psi, just like a 1.8K should not blow below about 1600 psi.... If you use a 3K disc you can have the full 3000 psi in the tank end up in the gun if the regulator bypasses (leaks internally).... If your gun is not built to withstand 3000 psi I would recommend you stay with the 1.8K burst disc and find out why it is blowing.... Try the BV stack you have with NO shims and see what happens.... Once you have your tester built you can be sure the reg isn't bypassing and what the output pressure actually is....

Bob

[1377x]

There is no reason to use more than a 3K burst disc on the output side.... They should not blow below 2700 psi, just like a 1.8K should not blow below about 1600 psi.... If you use a 3K disc you can have the full 3000 psi in the tank end up in the gun if the regulator bypasses (leaks internally).... If your gun is not built to withstand 3000 psi I would recommend you stay with the 1.8K burst disc and find out why it is blowing.... Try the BV stack you have with NO shims and see what happens.... Once you have your tester built you can be sure the reg isn't bypassing and what the output pressure actually is....

Bob

thos numbers i threw out up there was for my understanding.really need to know if im on the right page.lets leave safety to the side because thats a given
what i need for someone who knows to confirm im on the right page and i am not confusing what im reading.my main issue is why does the burst disk pop upon filling and if im reading this correctly,its because the output pressure of the regulator is to close or over the 1.8k pressure rating of the burst disk
i like to learn for the most part dont have any trouble learning just need to hear from someone with experience im on the right page
the 1.8k burst disk will blow on filling if the output pressure is close to the 1.8k rating using 1700psi as an example
if the regulator is set at 1750psi the burst disk will blow upon filling, correct?
if the regulator is a faulty it can blow the regulator upon filling?
im guessing this will let all the air out of the tank
from what i saw at the paintball shop it vents all the air out when the disk pops
with the output pressure of the tank set at a safe presrure of lets say 1500psi then the 1.8k burst disk will not pop upon filling the tank,correct?

my first test was going to be the be washers stacked without the shims and i read somewhere the ninja stack order is ()()()()() iirc 10 washers in series.
bottom line is if i am well under the safety rating of the burst disk ,the disk will not pop while the tank is being filled
if it does pop then im either to close or over the pressure rating or there is an issue with the regulator
i hope i sound clear this is pretty much how i can explain it.if my presumptions are incorrect please correct them
thanks again
ED
i ask a lot of questions because its the best way for me to come to the understanding of what im asking
thanks for your patience

[rsterne]

if it does pop then im either to close or over the pressure rating or there is an issue with the regulator

Absolutely correct.... The stock Ninja stack is 10 BV washers 0.032" thick in series, ) () () () () ( .... To that they add a single 0.022" BV in parallel to the end ones, on one or both ends.... For their very high pressure setups, they use a 0.032" BV in parallel with the end ones, to end up )) () () () () (( with a total of 12 BV washers of 0.032" thick.... That should give you about 1300 psi plus or minus 100 psi with NO shims....

Bob

[1377x]

thanks! now i can rest easy knowing im getting to understand the regulator a little better. i still have a long way to go before i can build them like you or jds.from what i have been reading around the paintball forums his regulators are fairly precise and stable.
your regulator work is also floating around the paintball scene if you didnt know that already.
glad i can get help like yours and bill's.let the journey continue

[rsterne]

your regulator work is also floating around the paintball scene if you didnt know that already.

I had no idea.... I hope they know what they are doing and take proper precautions when working with HPA....

Bob

[1377x]

oh yeah, there are some other regulator modders like jds airman and expert hpa they talk about also
they showed some of your belleville washer stacking from CAF
i googled ninja regulator belleville washer stack order
there are quite a few people modding pure energy regulators,also.the stack order is almost the same
one forum they dissected the jds regulators fom verious output pressures and measured the bv washers and shims,then posted the order
the one thing they kept mentioning was safety