Regulator failure

[SciGuy]

Well nuts, been shooting my Ninja HPA tanked gun a lot over the last few days getting ready for a field target match.  During my last session, I shot it until it came below the 850 psi regulator setting just to see how many usable shots I could get with pressure below the reg level.  I basically shot the tank empty (first time I've done this).  Went to refill the tank today and the 1800 PSI burst disk was leaking.  I figure that shooting the tank to empty allowed some moisture into the reg and toasted it.

Got a regulator rebuild kit ordered that should be here middle of next week.  I just hope it arrives in time for the FT match.

Guess I'll just have to shoot my 1701P until then    It's been pretty neglected lately anyhow.

Anyone have any experience with the Ninja regulator?

[jonnnyboy]

Mike, take a look at the following thread.  It shows a Ninja regulator broken down and talks about pressure adjustment.  Bob is a very knowledgeable airgunner and probably could help you with your regulator.  Hope that helps some.

joe

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,21513.0.html

[rsterne]

Is the disc leaking per se.... or is it just a bit loose?... Try tightening it a bit but don't go crazy, they have a soft copper seat on them.... You didn't by any chance move the burst disc to another hole, did you?.... Although they look like the same thread as the gauge and fill fitting, they are not 1/8"-27 NPT.... The burst discs are 3/8"-24 NF and seal on the bottom of a shouldered hole, not on the tapered threads....

Bob

[Ribbonstone]

For wahtever reason(s), regulators seem to blow the output burst disk more often than I'm use to with co2 tanks. running 5 regulated HPA bottles on differnt guns, and have had to replace the ouput burst disk on two of them over the last 3 years. 

Considering that inside a burst disk, there is just a thin sheet of metal (metal tested to let go at a certain pressure).  Each shot of a regulator shows  a fast drop in pressure, then a fast build up agin as the regulator kicks in.  Basically, that sheet of burst-disk metal is being stressed/flexed at each cycle of the regulator.

That flex/unflex/flex is happening with each cycle of the regulator; it is a stress to the metal and eventually fatigue will just crack it.

So I just wrote off the occasional burst disk as a victim of metal fatigue....your failure just happened early, as I'd expect a new one to last at least a couple of years. 

[TimmyMac1]

Burst discs can leak in anumber of ways.
#1 they are blown and they hold nothing because the low pressure side saw something in excess of 1800 psi.
#2 it is loose and needs to be retourqued. Ninja suggests 55 INCH POUNDS. If they are overtightened they can crack
#3 it has been overtightened/damaged and needs to be replaced.
#4 they are not the proper rating for the application and need to be replaced with higher value.

If you shimmed it and are trying to get max pressure output Nina recoemends using the higher presure tanks that use a different spring arrangement for better control. On Ninja Tanks with output of 1000+ all the Low pressure sides use a 3K burst disk instead of a 1.8K.
800 PSI Output tanks are the Ninja Standard Tank. The Bonnet on those tanks is not marked with a PSI. All the Tanks that are higher than 800 PSI will be marked with the pressure rating on the Bonnet. They are available in 800, 1000, 1200, 1400, and 1600 PSI. Mac1 stocks most of these. They are very high quality and Made in the USA. I used a USA Made Ninja HPA 1200 psi tank on my Third Place gun I shot in the 2011 Worlds Airgun BR match last July. I use a 1400 psi on my BR rifle with 35 fpe output.

The Entire gun was manufactured in the USA. Stainless Barrel and all. That is the Benchmark barrel that was on the winners gun and all the guys guns on the Gold (Team A) USA. That Bronze and Gold are the pinnacle of my shooting sports achievments to date. LD shot a .177 with a Tube set-up for fourth place so both systems work great. Regulated or unregulated. Your choice.

Ninja Regs are very reliable so you don't have a reg failure, you have a frangible disc failure. They will always blow if you try to fill it like a CO2 tank thru the outlet. That doesn't work on a HPA tank and will always blow the low side. They must be filled thru the Foster type male fill nipple.

Info from Ninja Painball on Proper Disc Replacement procedure;

http://www.ninjapaintball.com/Documents/Ctrl_Hyperlink/Burst_Disk_Replacement_uid111220081139091.pdf

[SciGuy]

A little more info.  I'm running the tank at its original pressure (850 psi).  I have not modified the reg in anyway and have never had it apart, and I always fill slowly thru the foster fitting using my 4500 PSI Guppy tank.

The burst disk never really burst, it just started leaking upon refill as soon as the pressure in the tank hit around 1500 PSI.  Got my Guppy tank on the Shoebox filling.  As soon as it finishes, I'll re-torque the burst disk and see if that helps.  Thinking back through the failure, even with the burst disk leaking, the pressure on the down stream side of the reg stayed at 850 PSI (I have a RAP4 ON/Off valve with gauge to read pressure downstream of the reg).  This tells me that the reg was still working and pressure was right on the mark.  I'm beginning to think that this may just be a problem with the burst disk and the reg is fine.

Post an update in a bit.

[SciGuy]

Retourqued the burst disk and no dice, still leaking.  Just have to wait for my replacement parts to get here.  Should be Tuesday and that will leave me plenty of time to get things fixed up.

Time to fill the 1701P and hit the range (that would be the backyard).

[TimmyMac1]

Fill a sink with warm water and dunk the whole tank to see where the leak is coming from. You have a gauge, gauge threads, two burst disks, an inlet seal and inlet assembly threads. That alone is 6 places for the thing to leak plus the possibility of two different burst disc being under or over torqued. I'd take the entire assembly including the on/off valve/gauge and all associated threaded attachments and dunk the entire assembly charged in the tub. You have entirely too many attachment points to have a prayer of getting sealed up without figuring out what is leaking.
Diagnose your leak source so you can get things sorted. Nobody can do anything except give you the science unless they are there.
Once you find the leak source and correct the situation be ready wth your air to blow the whole assembly off. The warmer the water the better as it will steam off. I like to saturate the assembly with Rem oil and blow it off repeatedly to make sure all the water is dismissed after the last bubble free dunk.
Don't throw parts at a problem. DIAGNOSIS first. Then treatment. Don't just start overtorquing everything. 55 inch pounds is not a lot.
My experience is they have not tightened the gauge as much as it can be tightened as well as the fill nipple. Those are normally the source. Every once in a while the leak is thru the gauge face which is a failed gauge. Inlet seals can get debris on them and work intermittantly as well as clear themselves or start functioning with a dab of grease on the inlet.
Whatever the source a quick dunk will always give you the info you need.
Teflon Tape goes on tapered threads only(Gauge and fill nipple threads). NONE ON BURST DISKS! Looking from the small end of the taper the tape goes on clockwise so it doesn't UNWRAP when you screw the parts together. Don't get tape within 2 threads of the inside and don't go less than 2 or more than three wraps.
Ninja uses black (Ninja)tape and it sometimes is too thick to seal well and replacement with the thinner white stuff will get tapered threads to seal where the black stuff didn't.
These are great American made tanks and they do a really good job or I wouldn't use them/carry them. This is the last great American Painball distributor and they do an awesome job. I wish I had got ahold of them a long time ago because they get it and they are doing a good job in my opinion.
I support any genuine effort to make quality here in the USA. I've tested all the systems being offered and Ninja is the only one I trust to not give up on me in the middle of a worlds BR match. I had a spare, just in case, but it was never touched.

To the American Makers I associate with;
Ninja Painball
Benchmark Barrels
Ralph Brown Grips
Too many to list
LD's design, engineering and development
And my 6 machinists

Well done guys. 2011 was a great year and I could not do it alone. I say we because I have a lot of guys to be thankful for and a lot of them don't get paid. They do it for the love of it. With a united effort Made in the USA can mean something special and in the case of Ninja Painball these guys are the best in one of the most competitive markets I've ever witnised.

[SciGuy]

Tim,  Thanks for the info, much appreciated. 

It is definitely the 1800 psi burst disk.  Only leak is from the holes in the bust disk plug. 

I've had this tank for 9 months and have put many refills in it.  Given the small cost of the rebuild kit and extra burst disks, I'm very happy with the setup.  With the Ninja Reg and tank I get over 100 shots at 12 FPE with an extreme FPS spread of less than 25 over the 100 shots. 

I'll update after the rebuild.