Beeman R9 Spring Experiment

[nced]

Hey Guys,
I ordered a Vortek HW95 HO spring yesterday - $19 plus shipping.
I didn't buy the whole kit, but will use the stronger spring along with my basic tune as I'm curious to see the results.  The Vortek spring will likely be stouter than my .125" hornet spring and have less coils.  With top-hat and spacers, will see what I can get in terms of power and balanced, smooth shot cycle.

I know I can turn a smaller spring guide/top-hat on my lathe and know spring twang will not be an issue even without the traditional Vortek plastic sleeved set-up.

Hummmm.....interesting because I tried a home rolled spring kit based on this spring and found it to be "too hot for my liking" but the gun was accurate with it.......


After reading glowing reports of the Vortek springs I ordered an early production Vortek PG2 kit for my .177 Beeman R9. I was surprised to find that the spring had (unclosed spring ends with a thick/heavy steel top hat) .........

My R9 had the old style cocking shoe that was supported by the piston liner which needed to be removed to make space for the plastic PG2 sleeve. Well....I found that the edges of the R9 cocking shoe "foot" (10s of thousands of shoots on the steel liner with no damage) grooved the PG2 outer sleeve like this.........

I rounded the edges of the cocking shoe foot contacting the PG2 "outer sleeve" and the gouging stopped.

After the PG2 kit install the 7.9 grain CPL velocity after the install was a "much too hot" 960 fps so I swapped out the thick/heavy top hat for a thinner/lighter home turned steel top hat. This dropped the CPL velocity to a "bit high but acceptable" 910fps. After shooting about 2500 shots the CPL velocity dropped to 880 fps so the gun was broken down and the lighter/thinner home turned top hat was replaced with the origionally supplied thick top hat and the CPL velocity was again at 910fps but 50fps less than when first used. Before finishing one case of CPLs (4 boxes) my CPL velocity again dropped to 880fps, even with the thicker top hat. That meant that in less than 6 months of shooting and less than 5000 shots the spring had sagged enough to drop velocity 80fps less than new.

Anywhoo.......perhaps I got a "lemon" but I didn't accept the offer for a new replacement from Tom (great customer support) because I didn't want to be breaking down my springer every few months during a field target season requiring a new setup. A couple years later I noticed that the bare Vortek springs had closed/polished spring ends so I ordered one of his bare springs to see if it was more resistant to "spring sag". It also sagged after about 2500 shots so I returned to the ARH springs I used in the past..........


Thinking that I might have simply gotten an "occasional poorly tempered" spring I questioned others at field target matches that also tried the Vortek offerings. Those I questioned who used Vortek springs for field target had similar results to mine. It was claimed that the PG2 worked well for about 2500 shots (what I found) but after that they started sagging "very fast".

Anywhoo.....I still have that ARH Hornet spring and I just may reinstall it in my .177 HW95 and see how much difference it makes to shoot CPLs at about 900-910fps (like I used to use) instead of the 850ish fps I'm currently using.



 
   

[SpiralGroove]

Thanks Ed,
I appreciate your ongoing analysis and boat loads of data.  I've haven't recorded my findings other than my old posts (when the data was fresh).

- I used the older Hornet spring in my HW95 .177 cal. (hybrid) and have had a constant 870/880 fps since its 2016 tune. The shot cycle isn't harsh at all, but not soft either.  However, the gun is so accurate, I refuse to change anything on her . With it's top-hat, tight spring guide, plastic piston sleeve and buttons it's a very solid and smooth shooter.

- I used both styles of Hornet spring on my Beeman R9/R10 (same set-up as above, but .20 caliber) and found they could not give me the dwell time or velocity I preferred.  After using modified Vortek springs appearing to be dimensional less robust (however, more aggressive wire pitch), they provided a faster dwell time and velocity I was seeking.

As Ed has noted, this power increase maybe short lived -> Thus the experiment continues .

[Mark 611]

A wealth of info from ED as usual! This why I only use ARH {JM} products!!!

[jason miller]

I also appreciate all of Ed’s input. And I’m not trying to be contrary. But that picture looks like the spring Ed got from Vortek was a .770” OD, .118” wire thickness, and 34 coil spring. Their website now lists an OEM replacement spring for the HW95 as .810” OD, .125” thickness, and 33 coils.

There are too many stories of of Vortek springs losing power, from too many reliable sources, to say that it didn’t happen. But they mostly seem to be older stories. Maybe it just took Vortek a few years to get things figured out and dialed in? That’s why I bumped this thread. Hoping Kirk can help us get some more current info on Vortek spring performance/longevity. Thanks to Kirk for making the thread, and to everyone else who has weighed in.

[nced]

"And I’m not trying to be contrary."

LOL...no controversy at all! I only tried the Vortek spring in the posted pic because it was close in spec to my favorite ARH spring (the E3650) which has 35 coils of .120 wire wound with a .515 ID (.755 OD)...........


I have a couple unused (practically) factory HW95 springs in my parts drawer because the last couple HW springers I bought were immediately stripped down of factory lubes and the factory spring replaced with a home rolled spring kit based on the ARH E3650 spring and the factory piston seal replaced with one of my home rolled oring sealed piston caps..........
HW95 disassembled and ready for aftermarket & home rolled parts plus a relube with Krytox "space station grease"..........


The factory HW95 spring geometry is indeed similar to the spring Vortek offers but here are the dimensions of my unused HW95 factory spring...........

I don't know about the consistency of the factory HW95 springs so perhaps there are differences. Seems that a couple differences between the Vortek spring and my factory HW95 spring are the wire thickness (HW .122 vs Vortek .125) and perhaps the coil count (depending on if the inactive coils are included). 

[Yogi]

NCed,

Thanks for posting.  My HW 50 with a PG 2 kit shoots right around 795 fps with JSB 8.44's.
Not sure if I will ever get to 2500 shots through it because my Motorhead tuned HW 50 with OEM spring shoots at 805 fps with JSB 8.44's, and is MUCH smoother.
Vortek rellies on gimmicks.  The plastic shroud is a gimmick and the variable top hat is a gimmick.

Now hopefully we can get Spiral Groove to try a Titan spring!

-Y

[nced]

NCed,

Thanks for posting.  My HW 50 with a PG 2 kit shoots right around 795 fps with JSB 8.44's.
Not sure if I will ever get to 2500 shots through it because my Motorhead tuned HW 50 with OEM spring shoots at 805 fps with JSB 8.44's, and is MUCH smoother.
Vortek rellies on gimmicks.  The plastic shroud is a gimmick and the variable top hat is a gimmick.

Now hopefully we can get Spiral Groove to try a Titan spring!

-Y

Concerning the "plastic shrouds" like this.........

I noticed that the use of the "outer sleeve" forced the use of a spring with a rather small inside diameter relative to the ARH bare springs I was using at that time years ago which was normally around .540 ID. (the old discontinued JM Tarantula spring). Since the Vortek spring used with my PG2 kit had a relatively small ID to fit inside the outer sleeve. I believe the smaller diameter relative to wire gage also increased the stress on the individual coils when cocked which accelerated the "spring sag" and also gave increased velocity for the short haul.

Contrary to this I found that the ARH E3650 gives excellent service life without "sagging" even though the 35 coils of .120 wire is wound with a relatively small .515 ID. I don't know if the issue with the two different springs (ARH vs Vortek) is related to the spring geometry or the tempering process but my Maccari springs have held up much longer than the two (admittedly only two) Vortek springs I tried.

The first time I tried a Maccari spring kit was decades ago when I owned a .177 Beeman R10 and I replaced the factory spring with a JM "soft spring" kit. After installation the R10 was completely twang/vibrationless and using the factory HW "thin parachute edge" piston seal I was shooting 7.9 grain domes over the chrony at 910fps. After 20,000 shots on the same spring (judged by counting empty pellet tins and boxes over two years) the gun was still shooting the 7.9 grain domes at 905fps. LOL...that small difference could have been due to only atmospheric conditions.

The PG2 kit I bought was indeed twang and vibration free but it wasn't any smoother shooting than the Maccari "soft spring" mentioned above, or a home rolled tight fitting single spring guide........


Concerning Titan springs...........
I'm not familiar with those but they do look interesting at about $30 a pop. Here is a size chart for Titan springs I found on the internet........

[jason miller]

I’m about to make my first attempt at posting a picture in this forum. It’s a screen shot of all the Titan XS measurements from a table I found on the internet that I converted from metric to standard US measurements. Probably the same chart Ed found...

[fwbsport]

Ed,

What is your assessment of the original factory springs compared to the installed modified ones?

For example, to me the durability is more important than the "refined accuracy" of a custom spring--so does the factory spring outlast the "kit" springs; and which springs last the longest in order?

[SpiralGroove]

Ed,
What is your assessment of the original factory springs compared to the installed modified ones?
For me, durability is more important than the "refined accuracy" of a custom spring.
Does the factory spring outlast the "kit" springs; and which springs last the longest in order?

Hey John,
I don't mean to answer for Ed,
1) After market springs outlast most OEM springs.
2) ARH springs last the longest/are the most consistent, but are made to achieve the sweet spot between power/longevity.
3) Vortek springs are the most powerful, but are more likely to exhibit reduced/inconsistent power over time.  However, many current Vortek users dispute their lack of durability.
4) I don't know anything about Titan springs except they cost $30

[nced]

Ed,

What is your assessment of the original factory springs compared to the installed modified ones?

For example, to me the durability is more important than the "refined accuracy" of a custom spring--so does the factory spring outlast the "kit" springs; and which springs last the longest in order?

I found that the Maccari (ARH) springs last longer than the factory HW springs of a couple decades ago, however I don't know about the springs in recent HWs because I haven't used a factory HW spring for a couple decades.

[nced]

Ed,
What is your assessment of the original factory springs compared to the installed modified ones?
For me, durability is more important than the "refined accuracy" of a custom spring.
Does the factory spring outlast the "kit" springs; and which springs last the longest in order?

Hey John,
I don't mean to answer for Ed,
1) After market springs outlast most OEM springs.
2) ARH springs last the longest/are the most consistent, but are made to achieve the sweet spot between power/longevity.
3) Vortek springs are the most powerful, but are more likely to exhibit reduced/inconsistent power over time.  However, many current Vortek users dispute their lack of durability.
4) I don't know anything about Titan springs except they cost $30

Yup....X2 here.

[fwbsport]

Thank you both!

 

[Mark 611]

I am a firm believer in the ARH spring kits, I have been buying them for over a decade, I have tried others over the yrs, other then ARH the only other kits I would purchase is ones from Steve Pope out of England! V-Mach kits!