Author Topic: SPA still doesn't get it - Diana Chaser rifling damage (Read 11376 times))

Wayne52 · « **Reply #40 on:** December 31, 2019, 02:50:31 AM »

Quote from: canadian_shooter on December 30, 2019, 07:05:04 PM

Quote from: Wayne52 on December 30, 2019, 06:51:46 PM
I'll be getting me another SPA soon myself, it will be my first 25 cal SPA, it's an M11MKII, I need to get in gear and cast up some more .25's cause I'll be needing them for sure. I'll need to take a hike back to the deep woods on the state land to sight it in, I'll start out at 50 yards. The new stocks on these guns look much better than what the M10's came with I think.

If the stock on yours is like the one on mine it is very nice. Clean, though a bit light, checkering. Nice even stain and satin finish. I was and am very impressed with it. It isn't American Black Walnut or Turkish Walnut but it is a very nice hunk of beech. Also it is meaty enough for effortless installation of a bipod.

David if the finish on these is anything like the finish on my SPAM16 it's also tough as nails. I've been using that gun in the woods for over two years and using it ruthlessly with no ill effects, to look at it up close it still looks really nice.

canadian_shooter · « **Reply #41 on:** December 31, 2019, 08:38:28 AM »

Quote from: Wayne52 on December 31, 2019, 02:50:31 AM

Quote from: canadian_shooter on December 30, 2019, 07:05:04 PM
Quote from: Wayne52 on December 30, 2019, 06:51:46 PM
I'll be getting me another SPA soon myself, it will be my first 25 cal SPA, it's an M11MKII, I need to get in gear and cast up some more .25's cause I'll be needing them for sure. I'll need to take a hike back to the deep woods on the state land to sight it in, I'll start out at 50 yards. The new stocks on these guns look much better than what the M10's came with I think.

If the stock on yours is like the one on mine it is very nice. Clean, though a bit light, checkering. Nice even stain and satin finish. I was and am very impressed with it. It isn't American Black Walnut or Turkish Walnut but it is a very nice hunk of beech. Also it is meaty enough for effortless installation of a bipod.
David if the finish on these is anything like the finish on my SPAM16 it's also tough as nails. I've been using that gun in the woods for over two years and using it ruthlessly with no ill effects, to look at it up close it still looks really nice.

Good to know.

nervoustrigger · « **Reply #42 on:** December 31, 2019, 12:14:50 PM »

Just a quick update to say Pyramyd has already approved and published my review of the Chaser. I figured it would take a while during the holidays so that’s a pleasant surprise. The photos are still pending however.

I don’t see a way to link to it so I’ll just copy/paste…

Things I liked: I ordered a Chaser for my son for Christmas and I have to say overall it’s a good value and will be a lot of fun. He's an average sized 9 year old and the lightweight design suits him well. Shot-to-shot consistency is quite good. With the long barrel, it holds a stable velocity of 650fps with a 7.9gr pellet (7.4fpe) for about 40 shots before it begins to tail off (temperature of 65F, allowing 15sec between shots to minimize any potential cooling effect). That’s very close to 300fpe for a single 12g cartridge, and whereas most CO2 AGs come from the factory as huge gas hogs, this result is quite good. Good enough that I’m not in a big hurry to open it up to see if I can reduce the small amount of valve bounce I’m hearing. The moderator works well, aided no doubt by the efficient CO2 consumption. Absolutely backyard friendly.

Things I would have changed: Accuracy with the short barrel is fine but the long barrel was disappointing. Taking a closer look, the rifling near the muzzle was damaged, smeared where the crowning pilot was inserted. It wasn’t the first time I have seen this problem from this manufacturer and fortunately I’m able to correct it, so I removed 0.2” from the end and faced it off in the lathe, then recrowned it with a brass screw and J-B Bore Compound. The moderator still has plenty of thread engagement and accuracy was immediately transformed. The first group with H&N FTT came in around 3/8” at 25 yards with a 4x scope. So if it’s spraying pellets all over the place, have a look for this sort of damage.

nervoustrigger · « **Reply #43 on:** December 31, 2019, 01:47:52 PM »

Walther, I briefly played with the trigger adjustment last night and I must admit it’s a good improvement over the original single-stage. Lightened up quite nicely. Very nearly as good as the modified gen 1 trigger with no effort. That alone is something I could easily justify a $10 premium even though I’m sure the actual cost adder for them was a tiny fraction of that.

Crosman would do well to take notice. That miserable stamped sear in their budget CO2 and PCPs needs to go. Even SPA’s gen 1 was substantially better but the gen 2 makes it look like a gumball machine toy. I can only speak for myself but it’s why I’ve passed on the Fortitude.

Scotchmo · « **Reply #44 on:** December 31, 2019, 06:22:18 PM »

Quote from: nervoustrigger on December 31, 2019, 01:47:52 PM

...
Crosman would do well to take notice. That miserable stamped sear in their budget CO2 and PCPs needs to go. Even SPA’s gen 1 was substantially better but the gen 2 makes it look like a gumball machine toy. I can only speak for myself but it’s why I’ve passed on the Fortitude.

Same here - I don't like direct sear triggers - they have issues. Crosman managed to squeeze a drop sear in their pistol grip frame that was originally a direct sear. Maybe they could do something similar with the Disco/Maximus/Fortitude.

anti-squirrel · « **Reply #45 on:** December 31, 2019, 07:48:53 PM »

Quote from: Scotchmo on December 31, 2019, 06:22:18 PM

Quote from: nervoustrigger on December 31, 2019, 01:47:52 PM
...
Crosman would do well to take notice. That miserable stamped sear in their budget CO2 and PCPs needs to go. Even SPA’s gen 1 was substantially better but the gen 2 makes it look like a gumball machine toy. I can only speak for myself but it’s why I’ve passed on the Fortitude.

Same here - I don't like direct sear triggers - they have issues. Crosman managed to squeeze a drop sear in their pistol grip frame that was originally a direct sear. Maybe they could do something similar with the Disco/Maximus/Fortitude.

I often compare my Maximus and my Varmint (PR900) since I spent the same. Even keeping the PR900 as a "2000 psi fill" I find it more enjoyable to shoot- the trigger is a tangible part of that and I've done literally nothing at all to the trigger on either gun.

Oddly, I never really thought about the triggers on both guns as primary drivers for what I like and don't like; you two sum things up perfectly.

nervoustrigger · « **Reply #46 on:** January 07, 2020, 08:38:15 PM »

Funny story about the review I submitted to Pyramyd. I mentioned previously that they published the written review but hadn't yet approved the 2 barrel photos. They were showing as "pending review" placeholders alongside the other customer photos.

Today I noticed they've deleted them.

Meanwhile I notice one of the published photos is a soup can with holes shot in it...with a Bandit PCP. Top notch editorial standards.

SILENT SQUIRREL · « **Reply #47 on:** January 07, 2020, 09:20:14 PM »

Quote from: nervoustrigger on January 07, 2020, 08:38:15 PM

Funny story about the review I submitted to Pyramyd. I mentioned previously that they published the written review but hadn't yet approved the 2 barrel photos. They were showing as "pending review" placeholders alongside the other customer photos.

Today I noticed they've deleted them.

Meanwhile I notice one of the published photos is a soup can with holes shot in it...with a Bandit PCP. Top notch editorial standards.

That's called dis-informative marketing, Jason
Ignore the issue & it will go away

Pelletjunkie · « **Reply #48 on:** January 07, 2020, 09:54:34 PM »

Holes in can = Hey that’s what I want to do!!
Rough looking gun parts = I have no machinist skills, moving on.

They do post some pretty critical reviews and some are written by obvious dimwits. I guess pictures risk sensory overload and are too risky.

anti-squirrel · « **Reply #49 on:** January 07, 2020, 10:32:19 PM »

Quote from: Pelletjunkie on January 07, 2020, 09:54:34 PM

Holes in can = Hey that’s what I want to do!!
Rough looking gun parts = I have no machinist skills, moving on.

They do post some pretty critical reviews and some are written by obvious dimwits. I guess pictures risk sensory overload and are too risky.

Oh man, this just brought a huge smile to my face. You have certainly had some interesting experiences with SPA guns. I wish your barrels were received as good as the one on my PP700. But it does seem- depending on intangibles- that the pistols and certain rifles are much more prone to a quality barrel than others. The hand-crowning aspect does really make sense. And would certainly be faster in a factory running full-boogie.

subscriber · « **Reply #50 on:** January 07, 2020, 10:47:02 PM »

I admit this is speculation; but my "video animator" came up with the following explanation:

That rifling damage is consistent with improper use of a drill press to crown barrels: The crowning tool goes in OK, but when the drill press quill is lifted to withdraw the cutter, the pilot hangs up slightly and the barrel lifts up off the table. The operator grips the barrel and yanks it down and sideways to free it from the still spinning crowning tool. It is the unintentional sideways movement of the barrel relative to the spinning crowning tool that causes the damage.

While the barrel is held against a V-block for alignment, why not grip the barrel in a vice and stop the tool before withdrawing? Because that increases cycle time by a factor of 5. Time is money.

If SPA seems sloppy about this; I have three Ruger cap and ball revolvers that all sport exactly this damage, right from the factory. It is disgusting and makes one want to lop off the barrel beyond the damage...

Why can't they crown these barrels in a lathe, when they cut the other features? If it is done on a lathe, how do they manage to make the damage so asymmetrical?

EDIT I see I am late to the party. This statement suggest I did not just imagine the drill press crowning tool use: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=166821.msg155869021#msg155869021

nervoustrigger · « **Reply #51 on:** January 08, 2020, 12:56:30 AM »

I think you nailed it, Frank. Can't have folks knowing exactly what to look for...that would be an RMA nightmare. The unfortunate thing is, a big pile of them going back to the manufacturer is the one thing that has any hope of getting them to take notice. That's really too bad because both of my long barrels are very good once that was fixed, and it's a much easier thing to prevent than it is to fix after the fact.

Subscriber, I'm sorry to hear your Ruger revolvers suffered the same fate. Regarding how SPA is inflicting this abuse, I'm less inclined to think they are using a drill press and instead just using a handheld drill. A few reasons why:
1. Handheld drill is faster and requires no setup or fixturing to handle barrels of different diameters. All they require is a cutter for each caliber.
2. If they took the time to load the barrel in a fixture to be crowned with a drill press, a piloted tool would not be necessary. It's certainly possible they might use one anyway but...
3. All four SPA barrels I've purchased had crowns which differed enough that they appear to have been done by hand, and had varying degrees of chatter marks that suggest a poorly supported workpiece and/or cutter more consistent with a hand operation.
4. Plenty of opportunity for an uncaring or untrained operator to rely too heavily on the pilot (or use it unlubricated or contaminated) and score the rifling.

As to why they don't do it on the lathe while cutting other features, that's apt to produce an irregular bevel because the bore is never perfectly concentric to the OD...and of course indexing off the bore in a 4-jaw chuck is out of the question in terms of setup time. Although with that said, that might be a better outcome than what we're getting now!

Pelletjunkie · « **Reply #52 on:** January 08, 2020, 01:41:15 AM »

Jason, when I read your thoughts on the crowning with a hand drill I started laughing. An image of the factory floor looking like tiny NASCAR pit crew tire changers crowning barrels popped in my head. Sorry, I am still laughing. It’s late I think I need to go to bed.

subscriber · « **Reply #53 on:** January 08, 2020, 02:16:31 AM »

Yes, Jason, a hand drill makes even more sense (to them). It is self guiding. Still, on withdrawing the tool, it is very easy to yank up on the drill handle and cause the axis to cock over, if one might be permitted to say that

nervoustrigger · « **Reply #54 on:** January 08, 2020, 02:29:50 AM »

I suspect your mental image is not too far from reality!

Hand a guy a drill and give him a quota and he'll crown those barrels like he just don't care.

SILENT SQUIRREL · « **Reply #55 on:** January 08, 2020, 09:53:05 AM »

Quote from: nervoustrigger on January 08, 2020, 02:29:50 AM

I suspect your mental image is not too far from reality!

Hand a guy a drill and give him a quota and he'll crown those barrels like he just don't care.

That could be part of the problem

On a more productive note:
Jason, have you considered sharing your observations & suggestions directly with SPA
GTA is, after all, a well known international forum; & you a respected member within it.
It's hard to see a downside to doing so, other than their putting the e-mail on ignore.
Ed

From the SPA Website
sales@china-airrifle.com

Gerneral Manager
E-mail：xulh@china-airrifle.com

nervoustrigger · « **Reply #56 on:** January 08, 2020, 11:39:39 AM »

Hi Edward, thanks that’s a good idea. That was a fleeting thought at one point that I dismissed because the way these things usually work, SPA’s customer is Diana and that’s who they have to make happy. So if Diana doesn’t hold their feet to the fire, the likelihood of it getting any attention is small…but it’s not zero so it’s worth a try. Like you said, worst that can happen is they ignore me. I’ll also see if I can get someone at Diana to listen. I will let you guys know if I hear back.

SILENT SQUIRREL · « **Reply #57 on:** January 08, 2020, 04:44:11 PM »

Quote from: nervoustrigger on January 08, 2020, 11:39:39 AM

Hi Edward, thanks that’s a good idea. That was a fleeting thought at one point that I dismissed because the way these things usually work, SPA’s customer is Diana and that’s who they have to make happy. So if Diana doesn’t hold their feet to the fire, the likelihood of it getting any attention is small…but it’s not zero so it’s worth a try. Like you said, worst that can happen is they ignore me. I’ll also see if I can get someone at Diana to listen. I will let you guys know if I hear back.

Hi Jason
It's good to know you are willing to contact SPA
It may do some good.
Regarding Diana's position
It seems to me they would be unlikely to take issue with SPA as it might cause cost increase.
Unless of course there were a massive number of complaints and/or bad reviews

How about the Artemis guns?
Correct me if mistaken; but are they not SPA direct to market products?
Is it known whether the CP-2 (Chaser) and the PP800 (Bandit) have the same crown (or other QC) issues?

Can't you just imagine the Snow Peak QC officer sorting guns (or barrels) as they come off the line
Column A -Good crown = SPA
Column B - Not so good crown= Diana
Column C - Bad crown & barrel = Mrod-Air

Ed

dlee · « **Reply #58 on:** January 08, 2020, 05:14:31 PM »

Added the reg to my 22cal SR and am getting ~1/2" (7-shot) group at 30 yds. Not great but more than adequate out to 50 yd pesting. That's using 15.89gr JSBs. Didn't touch the barrel, just added the reg.

My 177 was giving 1.25" groups like Jason's out of the box (and my reg was painted backward just like his as well). Removed the moderator and reworked the crown and leade (btw, my moderator thread is M12x1, not 1/2-20 UNF). Got down to 1" groups but no better.

Was about the give up on the 177cal and live with the larger groups when I switched pellets for grins. Was using 8.44gr JSBs and switched over to 10.65gr HN Baracudas. Didn't do anything else and I'll be darned if the groups didn't tighten up to 1/2" at 30 yds. Go figure. All this time I assumed that if it didn't shoot the 8.44 JSBs well, it wasn't going to do much better with anything else. I was wrong. Still not a total laser but that's a significant improvement for just switching pellets. Guess I'll try a bunch more pellets and see what happens.

K.O. · « **Reply #59 on:** January 08, 2020, 05:51:44 PM »

the a,b,c thing...Sorry nah... D Storm Gen1...

The rifling was great and despite many shortcomings(all other barrel machining) was very good with AA 10.3 and 15g Snipers for the 129$ my son paid... But did not like anything else... all barrel machining was a total hack job..! did get it a touch less picky after some work...

pics in this thread... https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=151471.0

Jason just read your PM a few days ago will PM back soon and thanks...

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SPA still doesn't get it - Diana Chaser rifling damage

Author Topic: SPA still doesn't get it - Diana Chaser rifling damage (Read 11376 times))