Pellet expansion with lower powered guns

[Dutchie]

Hi all,
So I have a Crosman 2240, don't have a chrony but Crosman markets it as shooting about 450 fps if I'm not mistaken.

What I'm wondering is this: is this enough power to actually expand hollow point pellets like the Crow Magnums or Polymags? I have seen some beautiful testing done on ballistic gel, but always with a PCP rifle. I could imagine that with something less powerful, maybe you would be better off using pointed pellets to get more penetration, but I have no experience with air gun hunting. I'm talking about shooting small things only with this kind of gun of course.

[BenjiHunter]

I know it's not enough for Polymags and I don't think it's enough for any hollow point pellet.
My HW97K .20 shoots at 16-17 FPE and that is not enough for Polymags.
My Steroid 392 mushrooms Polymags great but it shoots at 22FPE+.

[gandalfretlaw]

In my experience you need to be around 800fps or higher to expand pellets however flat or match pellets may expand pretty well anyway. I'd probably recommend match pellets or round points. Pointed pellets aren't supposed to be as reliable or accurate and I doubt they have better penetration than round nose pellets.

If you want to really know, just get some cheap clay at walmart or a craft store and shoot it. It's a bit heavier than gel, but will give you an idea. 

[Dutchie]

That makes things a bit easier for me then, as I am already using Crosman premier pellets with a round nose.

[only1harry]

It's like Stefan said.  Try domed pellets.  You don't really need expansion for birds or squirrels up close, but you do need penetration, and you won't get that either with hollow points and that velocity.  Use domed and aim for the squirrel's head/brain inside 15 yards.  Birds you can hit anywhere in the body and they 'll go down.

You can also install a longer barrel in your 2240 like 14" to get decent power.  I have the 10.1" and it shoots 14.3's at 505fps avg. at room temp.  Not sure if you know this but CO2 guns lose a lot of power in cold weather.  The advertised power which you are correct and is about 450fps at the muzzle, is at 70-75 degrees or "room temperature".  If it's cold where you live and you out hunting in the winter, you will get lower velocities and the point of impact of the pellet will be significantly different than when you might have tested indoors.  A CO2 gun is not the best choice to hunt with in the winter unless you shoot from inside the house like from a window.  But don't leave your 2240 at the window for long or it will get cold fast.  It happened to me with the Hammerli 850 .22 that is also CO2 when I tried to shoot a crow.  I had lost over 130fps and watched the pellet all the way to the crow and hit the ground right by its foot.

Harry

[Dutchie]

It's like Stefan said.  Try domed pellets.  You don't really need expansion for birds or squirrels up close, but you do need penetration, and you won't get that either with hollow points and that velocity.  Use domed and aim for the head/brain inside 15 yards.

You can also install a longer barrel in your 2240 like 14" to get decent power.  I have the 10.1" and it shoots 14.3's at 505fps avg. at room temp.  Not sure if you know this but CO2 guns lose a lot of power in cold weather.  The advertised power which you are correct and is about 450fps at the muzzle, is at 70-75 degrees or "room temperature".  If it's cold where you live and you out hunting in the winter, you will get lower velocities and the point of impact of the pellet will be significantly different than when you might have tested indoors.  A CO2 gun is not the best choice to hunt with in the winter unless you shoot from inside the house like from a window.  But don't leave your 2240 at the window for long or it will get cold fast.  It happened to me with the Hammerli 850 .22 that is also CO2 when I tried to shoot a crow.  I had lost over 130fps and watched the pellet all the way to the crow and hit the ground right by its foot.

Harry

Thanks. This is not really meant to do any serious hunting, I just want to know if I should keep a can of hollow points in case I catch a mouse or rat around my house. I'm building this gun based on style first and function second. I don't want a longer barrel as it is already quite big for a pistol. I am planning on some internal modifications, but they won't give me much of an increase if any in FPS. Saving up for a Diana 460 (I think they're called RWS 460 in the US).

[Dutchie]

I just thought of something. The other day I was shooting my CZ Slavia 631 (also not incredibly powerful, .177) and I like using cigarette butts as targets. When I insert the pellet backwards, the cigarette butts show considerably more damage. Makes me think: would a hollow point pellet still do more damage if it doesn't expand? Or maybe the skirt is thin enough so that this does expand.

[BenjiHunter]

I skirt is much thinner than the front of a hollow point and expands much easier.
And the skirt is supped to expand to make a tight fit in the barrel.
But if you turn it around and shoot it with the skirt facing forward, accuracy goes bye bye.

[Dutchie]

I skirt is much thinner than the front of a hollow point and expands much easier.
And the skirt is supped to expand to make a tight fit in the barrel.
But if you turn it around and shoot it with the skirt facing forward, accuracy goes bye bye.

Yeah, I can imagine. I was trying that at about 10 feet. I was able to hit them consistently but I bet this won't work at much longer distances. I'll try at 30 feet some time and see how I do. 
But anyway, I'll try shooting some clay with some hollow points because even if it doesn't expand, I can imagine it sort of "tears" more than a dome pellet. Just like a dome pellet doesn't leave a nice round hole in a piece of paper, that means that the flatter pellet is doing more damage to the paper than a domed one. Maybe this effect is still stronger with a non-expanding hollow point than with a wadcutter.

[ColdTexan]

Here is a video where the reviewer uses 2 different rifles and shows the difference in pellet expansion shot from a 15 foot pound rifle and a 22 foot pound rifle:




Cold Texan

[only1harry]

Saving up for a Diana 460 (I think they're called RWS 460 in the US).

We call them Diana's here too and they do have the name Diana on them as well.  Actually all Diana airguns have the RWS trademark on them outside of Germany, and maybe even in Germany.  That's because RWS is the sole exporter of Diana guns.  Diana airguns are made by Dianawerk Mayer & Grammelspacher and are exported to the rest of the world by the company RWS that also makes the RWS pellets.  RUAG (a Swiss company) actually makes the pellets in Germany and distributes them and the Diana rifles under the RWS brand, as does other RWS ammunition and also the Geco ammunition.

It's just that some of the new airgunners here that shoot mostly PCP's call the Diana's RWS only   Us older guys and long time springer owners call them Diana like we have been doing for decades

Harry

[Mole2017]

Wow, at 450 FPS you have to watch out they don't bounce off a squirrel's hide...I tested a fresh dead squirrel once with a Daisy 22SG. A pellet to the lower body bounced off at 15 feet. A head or neck shot however, would kill them--the skin is too thin to stop anything, and nothing else up there is tough enough to stop a pellet first either.

As for damage, wadcutters are awesome compared to domes and pointed ones when your velocity isn't enough for proper hollow points.

[Tonycalves]

Ya @ 8 .5 fpe I hit a squirrel in the head with a match pellet @ 25 yards. It bounced off and left a mark on it head but it seemed unphazed by it. Shot was on the mark, temple.

[gandalfretlaw]

I really think it's more of an FPS than a FPE issue as we're talking about penetration. FPS is initial smashing power in a certain size pellet. To penetrate skin and bone you need a certain smashing power. Once your in, FPE determines how far the damage continues, but if you don't have the FPS to get in the FPE doesn't really matter. I came across this thinking shooting coconuts. Also there is another difference. A 177 pellet has a smaller size than a 22. The 22 requires more speed/power to penetrate the same thing, it's like the difference between a spike high heel and a normal heel. That's also a little bit of how those gamo rockets can work. They hit with a hard little bb and may even shed the rest of the pellet with the bb penetrating and the rest not. Hmm, you might give those a try for better penetration but I doubt the internal damage will be very great. Might well stir up some grey matter though.

[Habanero69er]

I’m shooting RWS Meisterkugeln Standard wadcutters with my Mac-1 2240. They have no problem with squirrels up to 30yds. Seem to get enough penetration & energy to dispatch them cleanly.

[Mole2017]

I’m shooting RWS Meisterkugeln Standard wadcutters with my Mac-1 2240. They have no problem with squirrels up to 30yds. Seem to get enough penetration & energy to dispatch them cleanly.

+1! My CFX loved them and the RWS Supermags, also a wadcutter, in .177, shooting either of them at no better than 850 FPS (if ever that high--I never did get a proper measurement on those, but my CFX was no magnum gun). After the spring broke, it still launched them at just under 700 FPS with fatal results. My best was a 45+/- yard head-shot. I often recovered pellets just under the skin on the other side of the squirrel, so the damage was all the way through.

[nced]

Hi all,
So I have a Crosman 2240, don't have a chrony but Crosman markets it as shooting about 450 fps if I'm not mistaken.

What I'm wondering is this: is this enough power to actually expand hollow point pellets like the Crow Magnums or Polymags? I have seen some beautiful testing done on ballistic gel, but always with a PCP rifle. I could imagine that with something less powerful, maybe you would be better off using pointed pellets to get more penetration, but I have no experience with air gun hunting. I'm talking about shooting small things only with this kind of gun of course.

Personal opinion based on squirrel hunting when living in WV shooting a .177 R9 and a .20 R9. After playing with "trick pellets" I found that penetration through the vitals trumped pellet expansion with rib shots and an expanding .177 or .20 cal pellet that missed the vitals wasn't as effective as a well placed dome. I found that the "trick pellets" of a couple decades ago (wadcutters & hollow points) seemed to veer off course after about 30 yards which gave quite a few "off the mark hits".

I used a .20 Crow Magnum hollowpoint pellet for a while and found that up to 25ish yards it was "pure poison" when shot at 17ish fpe from my home tuned R9, however it wasn't as effective as my .177 R9 shooting a Crosman Premier dome when the range exceeded 35 yards due to poor hits.

Anywhoo......here is a mushroomed .20 cal Beeman Crow Magnum pellet I dug out of an unlucky squirrel when I was dressing it for the pan........


LOL....a rather "pretty" mushroom, but I nixed both the CM pellet and the .20 cal barrel fo the R9 after hunting with it for a season in WV. I ended up preferring a .177 dome that "through penetrated" a squirrel giving two holes with one shot...one hole in and one hole out.

[Habanero69er]

Yeah, beyond 30yds .22 wadcutters start loosing their accuracy quickly. I've only seen a few mass produced hollowpoints that do well out past 50yds. Namely, Baracuda Hunter Extremes & JSB Ultra Shocks. But they still require some oomph to get descent expansion & most likely wouldn't do too well with a low powered gun.

[nced]

Yeah, beyond 30yds .22 wadcutters start loosing their accuracy quickly. I've only seen a few mass produced hollowpoints that do well out past 50yds. Namely, Baracuda Hunter Extremes & JSB Ultra Shocks. But they still require some oomph to get descent expansion & most likely wouldn't do too well with a low powered gun.

With my .177 R9 I found that the wad cutter that held accuracy longer than others I used was the 9.5 grain RWS SuperMag. They did "put a smack" on squirrels, hoiwever I preferred an "accurate at 40 yards" dome which I used most of the time. 

[Benny]

Saving up for a Diana 460 (I think they're called RWS 460 in the US).

Actually all Diana airguns have the RWS trademark on them outside of Germany, and maybe even in Germany. 

Actually Diana airguns sold in Canada do not have the RWS trademark on them.