FPE needed?

[Hoosier Daddy]

I am thinking of trying Field Targets and  would like to know the energy needed to knock down the typical target.
 Here is why.
 One of my most ACCURATE rifles is my Beeman AR2078B. I was stretching it's legs today from it's normal 10M duties out to 35 yards. While I am able to hit the bottom of a pop can right dead center, I can not knock one over that is standing upright with a wadcutter (RWS Basic or Meisterkugeln) pellet. They pass thru but the can stays in place.
I have a Crosman re-settable squirrel target and at at anything past 20 yards it does not have the energy with those pellets to reset the paddles with a direct hit.
 Do I need a stronger accurate gun? With any of the heavier 177 pellets (CPHP, CPUM, RWS SuperDomes) I have, the accuracy goes south.
What kind of energy does it take to knock down the typical FTT target?
 Take a look at my gun list, am I still out of the game?
Thanks

[DFWdude]

Here in the US, it is recommended that targets be tuned by the Match Director to fall with direct hits on the target paddle of 4fpe or more.  A 12fpe rifle (European WFTF) will retain about 6-7fpe at 55yds.  So that is why the standard is 4fpe on the paddle.

If only it were easy to reach that 4fpe goal.  Tuning the target to fall with 4fpe sometimes results in it falling with a faceplate hit, too.  So the real goal is to set the mechanism so that it will NOT fall with a 20fpe faceplate hit, but fall successfully with 4-5fpe on the paddle.  Not easy to accomplish in all cases, which means that the paddle pressure can rise to 5-6fpe.

Further, not all ranges are as particular about tuning targets.  Some buy a new target, and assume it meets the standards, when it doesn't.  Or they tune a target and assume it's good to go forever, when it isn't.  In these cases, dropping a target at 55 yds with 6-7fpe can sometimes be a challenge.

Like you, I have a FWB300s.  I have often wondered how it will perform at 55yds with 8.44gr pellets.  Input the data into Chairgun to see.  Chairgun indicates that I can drop targets out to 35yds or so (4.189fpe), if the target is properly tuned.  However, pellets will likely bounce off the paddle beyond 38yds.  (Only 3.3fpe at 55yds). 

My FWB300s is completely box stock... not tuned in any way.  Tuning the rifle to shoot faster will help, but likely still marginal at 55yds.

Bottom line... 10m airguns -- in factory tune -- generally do not have enough power to operate throughout the 10-55yd range.

HTH...

[Hoosier Daddy]

Yes it does Bob, quite well too!
Thank you.

[gonzav]

I use my FWB 300 to test all of my field targets at 55 yards.
I get 7.6 FPE (635 fps with 8.4 grain Air Arms Domed pellet)
At 55 yards, it is 3.93 FPE.

I get the accuracy with JSB Exacts and Air Arms Diabolo Fields (8.4 grain) pellets.

[Buldawg76]

I have also used my 300s for FY before and had no issue dropping the 55 yard targets on our club range, MCAFT in Heflin, Alabama. My 300s is tuned with a Macarri Artic spring and shoots JSB/AA 8.44s at 655 fps and as long as there is no strong winds on the course it is capable of dropping all targets hit by it.

It indeed a challenge to judge the holds on any given day since any gust of wind in between the shooting position and the target will make you miss. Playing the wind is the biggest challenge with a 300s.

If you will be shooting Hunter class then I would tune your Maximus for a good 30 plus shot count at around 15 to 18 FPE and have fun. It can be a very good entry level gun if you tune it properly. If possible shoot 10.34 or similar weight pellets for the best wind bucking at 825 to 890 fps. Most matches are 60 or less shots so that is why I shoot for 30 good shots that have the same POI so only need to fill once per match. The more the better as well.

Mike

[Hoosier Daddy]

So tonight I brought out the FWB 300s.
Same story. 10x at 10 meters. 5 golf Tees in 6 shots 
At 20 yards I can hit the resettable squirrel top paddle but not "reset" it hitting the lower paddle. Spinners just swing at the same distance. Don't "spin".
 30yrd pop cans are hit with the proper hold over but never "fly". Using RWS Basics and Meister's
 Tried increasing the FPE with CPUM's but they are too darn inaccurate.
Ordered a Sampler pack of JSB 177 to try at these longer ranges.

[Buldawg76]

Scott
What caliber is your Maximus. If its a 177 you should tune it for FT matches since its capable of making the required power of either 12 or 20 fpe. If it was me starting out it would ne the gun I would choose.

I think you will find the JSB domes do good in the 300s past 10 meters.

Mike

[Hoosier Daddy]

The Maxi is a .22.
Thanks for the suggestion. Looks like those pellets won't be here till Monday.

[TwiceHorn]

Here's something to consider.  For a brand new shooter, unless you are experienced with benchrest or some other long-range discipline or shooting a near-20fpe gun, hitting a 55 yard target is probably a crapshoot (if that good), anyway.  Wind, difficulty accurately ranging, and large holdovers at those distances conspire to challenge pretty good shooters with pretty good equipment.

You could probably have a bit of fun for a few matches with little to no ability to knock down the long range targets.  Most people are that way.  How long you can keep going this way depends on your competitiveness or threshold for embarrassment.

DFWdude always counsels the new shooters and those cursed with short ranges at home to master the short targets (10-25 or 30).  You can rack up a quite decent score cleaning or hitting a large majority of them and that's doable with your AR.

In the meantime, you can start figuring out what you like and don't like about your gun (other than its velocity/energy) and scope and gain some experience "setting up" for field target, that is, getting a ranging tape set up on your scope and a range card for your trajectories.

Probably your biggest challenge with the AR is going to be temperature/velocity variation, and knowing when to change your carts and what the shot string looks like starting with fresh carts.

Shooting with a .22 is not unheard of.  We had a newb with a springer .22 and an AO scope shoot 44 (or 46) out of 52 not too long ago.  It's not ideal, but not a bad way to start.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Thanks for your insight Mark. Very good points brought up.
I am an avoided bench shooter. 90% of the time I am shooting off bags.
Back yard range is 35 yards. I can stretch to 100+ if I move the target out to the field.
My sampler pack of JSB's arrive but haven't been able to try them out yet.
I have a mil-dot scope I can mount on either the FWB or the AR to help with my hold over.
I thought FTT was limited to 177 guns? If not that opens up a whole new arena for me.

[Buldawg76]

Scott
Power limits for FT are either 12fpe for WFTF or 20fpe for Open or Hunter FT so any caliber can be used as long as it meets those power limits. The reason for predominately .177 caliber is the size of the pellet in relation to kill zone size. The smaller diameter the pellet the more fudge factor you have in not hitting dead center of the kill zone. The bigger the diameter of the pellet the less room for the fudge factor in hitting the kill zone.

Hope that helps.

Mike

[Hoosier Daddy]

Scott
Power limits for FT are either 12fpe for WFTF or 20fpe for Open or Hunter FT so any caliber can be used as long as it meets those power limits

Mike

Good stuff Mike, I had no idea that is how it is set up.
Thanks!

[TwiceHorn]

Scott
Power limits for FT are either 12fpe for WFTF or 20fpe for Open or Hunter FT so any caliber can be used as long as it meets those power limits

Mike

Good stuff Mike, I had no idea that is how it is set up.
Thanks!

When I said "benchrest" or other long range discipline, I was referring to "wind dope."  Even at the maximum power, wind can affect those long range shots and the lower the fpe, the "earlier" (in distance) wind is going to start blowing your shots off.  Knowing how to compensate for wind with your gun is one of the ultimate skills in FT, and probably one of the last acquired.

So, even assuming your rifle can generate the fpe to knock down a 55 yard target, it can be quite a challenge to hit one.

The requisites of FT shooting are ranging the target, and, with the "established" range, knowing how your gun is going to shoot at that range (trajectory), and under the prevailing conditions.

So, to be moderately or more successful, you need to establish your trajectories at the distances between 10 and 55 yards.  Preferably by shooting each of the distances and "measuring" the drops in either scope elevation "clicks" (for Open and WFTF) or holdover using your reticle (Hunter Class).

You will also need to set up your scope for "focus rangefinding" at the relevant distances, usually every 5 yards.  In Open and WFTF, you can use any power scope you like and higher power tends to yield better rangefinding, particularly at distances beyond 30 yards.  In Hunter, you are limited to 12x.  Generally speaking, at 12x, focus rangefinding is unreliable beyond 30-35 yards and the best shooters seem to have some kind of "bracketing" set up, where they can measure an object of known dimension (the killzone, the target faceplate, the end or long edge of the cinderblock they are usually mounted on) and from that determine the distance.

So there is plenty to do and skills to acquire and you can probably have some fun with it and learn a lot before you get the ideal or near ideal or even adequate rifle.

Your Maximus would work fine.  AR probably pretty well for the short ranges, at least, with the caveats previously mentioned.

In addition to the equipment limitations, there are also position limitations.  Hunter is probably best to start out in because you can use sticks, don't have to contort yourself in sitting, and can use a bucket or other stool to sit on.

Having started it in the last year, I think I would recommend starting off with whatever "suboptimal" equipment you may have, watch the other guys/gals and what they shoot and make a decision on your equipment later, when you have sorted some of the other things and decided whether you like it or not.  People in the sport seem extremely generous with their time and knowledge and also their equipment.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Outstanding info Mark.
Thank you!

So, even assuming your rifle can generate the fpe to knock down a 55 yard target, it can be quite a challenge to hit one.

This, in a nutshell, is the allure to me!

[TwiceHorn]

Glad to help.  If you look at my rifle list, nothing on it would even mount a scope easily (except the Diana 45, but it takes some doing), so I couldn't follow my own advice and wound up buying the 97 from Krale and a UTG 8-32x56 with side focus.  I probably could have saved some money and weight with a 4-16x or 3-12x AO scope instead of the big, heavy side focus with 20x I don't use anymore in Hunter.

People tend to like side focus with a big ol wheel and tape, but people have shot successfully in Hunter with AO scopes since the beginning.

Sometimes I have regrets not trying to start out with the 45 and an AO scope, and I think I probably should have started in Hunter (started in WFTF).  I have shot all my life, but never much from a seated position (other than from a rest at the range).  I don't have much trouble assuming the position as some do with physical limitations, but I never could quite get good stability with it while also achieving the needed "elevation" to shoot FT.

All that said, you have two potentially adequate rifles and if you have a 12x scope with a mildot, I would encourage you to just go shoot a few matches in "fun" or "unlimited" or Hunter class as-is (putting in as much of the work mentioned above as you are inclined to do; doing it well and precisely obviates a lot of need for expensive equipment in the early going).