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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Paulus on January 19, 2019, 09:36:46 PM

Title: A little info on lead
Post by: Paulus on January 19, 2019, 09:36:46 PM
I found this very interesting, these guys did a 4.5 ton lead pour for a keel. So this is how this subject came up for them. I found what the young lady had to say about how lead interacts with soil was very interesting. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XZUgPozpuF8 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XZUgPozpuF8)
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: RedFeather on January 20, 2019, 03:05:58 PM
Virginia Tech conducted a study of soil contamination and it was found that oxidation (the white stuff coating old bullets, etc), forms rather quickly and then stops. This tends to encapsulate the lead. I have Civil War bullets that have oxidized and look no worse than oxidized modern bullets. So, spent pellets should not contaminate soils directly. If a bird eats them for use in their craw to grind up food, that's a different story. Ditto scavengers eating dead birds or squirrels where there was no pass-through.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: Paulus on January 21, 2019, 12:41:03 AM
She was saying that lead binds so tightly to soil, that it was very very hard to separate. That it was hard for crops to be effected by chunks of lead in the soil.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: Wayne52 on January 21, 2019, 05:03:31 AM
Many times if I'm metal detecting in a field where there use to be a farmstead I'll find old lead ingots or partial ingots.  Lead was pretty much a staple back when those old farms were built.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: anti-squirrel on January 21, 2019, 10:26:30 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if the soil acidity or alkalinity had an impact.  It's all basic chemistry.  Lead is toxic- there's no question about that.  It's how it binds and what the resultant compounds are that matter.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: Marc In Iowa on January 21, 2019, 11:31:10 AM
... a 4.5 ton lead pour for a keel ... how lead interacts with soil was very interesting.

Thanks very much for posting this!

I don't shoot lead on my 5 acre property (other than into a trap) because of lead concern. This was reassuring in many ways. I do shoot lead at a Field Target outdoor site in Wisconsin. I'll worry less about that having seen this video.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: Mole2017 on January 21, 2019, 03:05:51 PM
It is interesting that the Flint water debacle was the result of improper water treatment after 2014. The pipes were older than that, but when they switched water sources, chlorine levels went up without other treatments to reduce corrosion. Everybody saw the rusty water that resulted, then someone figured out the lead concentrations had gone up too.

So, your acid rain would have to get pretty strong to start moving any lead--but only if the acids in acid rain can leach lead like high chlorine can. Come to think of it, I haven't heard or read much about acid rain. For a while there was plenty of hand wringing about what it was doing to trees and fish, but have the acid levels dropped back any?
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: Mole2017 on January 21, 2019, 03:08:36 PM
Well, let me answer my own question. Looks like there has been some serious progress. Check out that before and after chart :) https://www3.epa.gov/airmarkets/progress/reports/acid_deposition_figures.html (https://www3.epa.gov/airmarkets/progress/reports/acid_deposition_figures.html)
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: Paulus on January 21, 2019, 03:26:19 PM
... a 4.5 ton lead pour for a keel ... how lead interacts with soil was very interesting.

Thanks very much for posting this!

I don't shoot lead on my 5 acre property (other than into a trap) because of lead concern. This was reassuring in many ways. I do shoot lead at a Field Target outdoor site in Wisconsin. I'll worry less about that having seen this video.

That is the same thoughts I had after watching this. That is why I posted it. 

Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: RedFeather on January 21, 2019, 03:30:13 PM
To Marc in Iowa and any others who shoot on their property. If you plan to sell your place, remove all signs of shooting first. While spent ammo shouldn't be a major concern (unless you have a well-used berm), it might turn off potential buyers.

Acid rain is a real problem. It's eroding ancient buildings such as the Acropolis, and affecting shell formation in juvenile shellfish.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: Wayne52 on January 21, 2019, 03:39:05 PM
When I do find the lead metal detecting I'll keep it, only the really white stuff though cause the dull isn't pure.  I've found musket balls that were pure white and after I cleaned them in hot peroxide you could actually see the imprint of the patch in them.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: ranchibi on January 21, 2019, 06:24:10 PM
Paulus, nice insight, thank you!
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: Paulus on January 21, 2019, 10:57:46 PM
Paulus, nice insight, thank you!

You bet....   
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: Insanity on January 21, 2019, 11:30:59 PM
Our direct contact to pellets is mitigated buy a graphite coating. Lead still harmful but that discoloration on your fingers is mostly graphite ya some lead dust is created in a tin but I am not sure how easily it is absorbed into the bloodstream.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: lizzie on January 21, 2019, 11:56:47 PM
quote author=Insanity link=topic=153690.msg155692800#msg155692800 date=1548127859]
Our direct contact to pellets is mitigated buy a graphite coating. Lead still harmful but that discoloration on your fingers is mostly graphite ya some lead dust is created in a tin but I am not sure how easily it is absorbed into the bloodstream.
[/quote]



From the MSDS data....Lead (except for certain organic lead compounds not covered by the standard, such as tetraethyl lead) is not absorbed through your skin. When lead is scattered in the air as a dust, fume or mist it can be inhaled and absorbed through you lungs and upper respiratory tract.

Recently, I posted the MSDS info on lead, and hopefully it will put a few minds at ease.
Contact with lead via handling is safe.

Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: mattd0401 on January 22, 2019, 08:07:55 AM
Just don't put your fingers in your mouth after a day of shooting or eat anything until you wish your hands. Smokers might want to hold off as well, but then again lead is probably the least of their concerns. If you cast your own pellets you might want to wear some sort of respirator or use a fume hood when melting. At the very least you should be outside or in a well ventilated space.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: Pellgunfun on January 22, 2019, 10:17:56 AM
Now I ask ya, who doesn't love a beautiful nerd.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: Insanity on January 22, 2019, 06:54:58 PM
quote author=Insanity link=topic=153690.msg155692800#msg155692800 date=1548127859]
Our direct contact to pellets is mitigated buy a graphite coating. Lead still harmful but that discoloration on your fingers is mostly graphite ya some lead dust is created in a tin but I am not sure how easily it is absorbed into the bloodstream.



From the MSDS data....Lead (except for certain organic lead compounds not covered by the standard, such as tetraethyl lead) is not absorbed through your skin. When lead is scattered in the air as a dust, fume or mist it can be inhaled and absorbed through you lungs and upper respiratory tract.

Recently, I posted the MSDS info on lead, and hopefully it will put a few minds at ease.
Contact with lead via handling is safe.
[/quote]

I will have to look up that post and read it. We could have lead dust issues after the pellet is shot but a lot of air guns seem to employ a moderator or LDC. How much dust is created is at question. Then you can determine say my attic range where I shoot currently 100 or so rounds then I am done. I may have more harmful exposure to the insulation than the lead. From what I understand in my case the insulation will stay in my lungs but the lead will make it to my brain and it could take a million pellets shot in my attic range to get any effect but after 100 hours I could have respiratory issues from inhaling fiberglass.

Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: Insanity on January 22, 2019, 06:56:39 PM
Now I ask ya, who doesn't love a beautiful nerd.

I tell ya what I do and I have all of Ohio's hottest librarian as my wife.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: lizzie on January 22, 2019, 10:53:07 PM


I will have to look up that post and read it. We could have lead dust issues after the pellet is shot but a lot of air guns seem to employ a moderator or LDC. How much dust is created is at question. Then you can determine say my attic range where I shoot currently 100 or so rounds then I am done. I may have more harmful exposure to the insulation than the lead. From what I understand in my case the insulation will stay in my lungs but the lead will make it to my brain and it could take a million pellets shot in my attic range to get any effect but after 100 hours I could have respiratory issues from inhaling fiberglass.



I would be REALLY surprised if there was any significant risk associated with shooting air guns.
Maybe PB's, due to the make-up of the primer, and the exposive process required for expulsion of the bullet.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: RobertMcC on January 23, 2019, 07:10:32 AM
Im actually on my way for blood test for lead/iron and bunch of the tests.. I went semi blind for awhile in my right eye. Found out I had rusted water pipes.

I think the risk is low shooting airguns. Where I shoot pellets and PBs. I mainly shoot powder coated lead bullets at a indoor range. ( avg 1000rds between us in 45 mins )

But for someone little,  lead exposure is higher risk. We had about 4-5 that shoots every week, find out that they had 2-3x higher lead level that they determine is normal. Like Archary and rifle nights. They got people lying on the floor, sure they got a mat but still coming in contact, the benches and such have got lead dust on it. Kids are touching it, and more subject.

Younger me, didn't worry. Now that I'm older, it's effecting me more.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: DHunter on January 24, 2019, 12:42:09 AM
The concern about lead has prompted E-waste (electronics waste) roundups where you can take old electronics equipment to be recycled so the stuff with lead-bearing solder doesn't go into the landfill and contaminate the ground water.  Well, our local landfill has many decades of electronics waste in it from before the E-waste roundups.  We get the ground-water quality report once a year with the water bill.  The lead level is one-eighth of the action level; IOW, if it got eight times as high, they'd start doing something about it.  The local landfill is not one of the suspected sources of lead in the water.  Erosion of natural deposits is though.  It's a little hard to be worried about lead pellets being left in the dirt when you see facts like that.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: Wayne52 on January 24, 2019, 05:35:52 AM
I'll ask my doctor at the VA what my lead level is on the 30th at the VA :D
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: RobertMcC on January 24, 2019, 04:59:05 PM
I'll ask my doctor at the VA what my lead level is on the 30th at the VA :D

I'll find out in a couple weeks my results.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: MartyMcFly on January 25, 2019, 08:38:11 AM
For those of you who are getting tested for lead I just wanted to point out that you should take into consideration the age of your home and the industry that you have worked in when interpreting your results.

Many older homes have lead paint and some even have lead pipes (less likely). The paint itself is not a problem until it starts to chip or becomes too dry and turns into a powder, which then makes it very easy to become airborn on the natural air currents in the home.

For those who have worked in manufacturing or lived in an area that was not too far from smelters or mines there is a higher probability that you already have higher levels of lead from those sources.

Last thing to remember is that lead is a naturally occurring ore, you may live in an area that has higher levels of this stuff naturally. Furthermore, leaded gas was once popular which makes it more likely that areas near high traffic zones may have higher levels.

-Marty
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: RobertMcC on January 25, 2019, 09:47:30 AM
For those of you who are getting tested for lead I just wanted to point out that you should take into consideration the age of your home and the industry that you have worked in when interpreting your results.

Many older homes have lead paint and some even have lead pipes (less likely). The paint itself is not a problem until it starts to chip or becomes too dry and turns into a powder, which then makes it very easy to become airborn on the natural air currents in the home.

For those who have worked in manufacturing or lived in an area that was not too far from smelters or mines there is a higher probability that you already have higher levels of lead from those sources.

Last thing to remember is that lead is a naturally occurring ore, you may live in an area that has higher levels of this stuff naturally. Furthermore, leaded gas was once popular which makes it more likely that areas near high traffic zones may have higher levels.

-Marty

Thanks, but I know where my lead is coming from. Every week at a shooting range where 10-11 of us are using powder coated lead bullets. And between us shooting about a 1000rds in a span of 45 mins. At the time with not up to par ventilation. Not enough negative pressure to draw the smoke away fast enough. And the ones with higher, are ones that cast. 

I also replaced all the pipes in the house, and its on a well.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: RobertMcC on February 10, 2019, 11:05:35 AM
I got my blood work back. Didn't have much time to go into detail about it. He was going to call a specialist. To see were we go now. So told me to call Monday. It was elevated, but doubt Ill need to get a dialysis to remove the lead from my blood.

So just a history. Im 34 years old, Ive been shooting since I was 15, mainly in indoor ranges. I was a IPSC shooter, and the last 2 years, I took up PPC with a ventilation system that wasn't up to par. And reload. I shoot about 500 pellets a week.

I do a little smelting, But always outside with proper P100 respirator, and full overalls.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: CENTURION on February 10, 2019, 08:36:05 PM
I sometimes use the steel traps, the steel plate targets definitely fragment pellets out the front of the trap on the floor, I actually sweep every time I shoot. I should probably switch to lead free for these type targets indoors. I was always concerned on the high velocity guns indoors blowing out lead dust. Problem with the lead free pellets is they are all so light, not a good thing for the springers.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: OneGear on February 10, 2019, 11:59:15 PM


I will have to look up that post and read it. We could have lead dust issues after the pellet is shot but a lot of air guns seem to employ a moderator or LDC. How much dust is created is at question. Then you can determine say my attic range where I shoot currently 100 or so rounds then I am done. I may have more harmful exposure to the insulation than the lead. From what I understand in my case the insulation will stay in my lungs but the lead will make it to my brain and it could take a million pellets shot in my attic range to get any effect but after 100 hours I could have respiratory issues from inhaling fiberglass.



I would be REALLY surprised if there was any significant risk associated with shooting air guns.
Maybe PB's, due to the make-up of the primer, and the exposive process required for expulsion of the bullet.

I agree.  And even regarding firearms, I'd need to know alot more about their byproducts of combustion at the pressures experienced before I'd start thinking about long term effects.

An open window and a fan can go a long way when indoor air quailty is in question.

***
I want to thank the OP for sharing this.  More widespread knowledge of the subject benefits all.
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: RobertMcC on February 11, 2019, 10:04:53 AM
Now when I was researching. Airguns were never directly mentioned in all the check lists.

Quote
Do you have hobbies such as target shooting, preparing lead shot or fishing sinkers, stained glass, lead pottery making

But I would assume they fall under target shooting.

Here a thing I found, more directed about airgun use.

https://www.usashooting.org/library/Youth_Development/HS_and_College_Programs/LeadMgtGuideUSASCMP.pdf (https://www.usashooting.org/library/Youth_Development/HS_and_College_Programs/LeadMgtGuideUSASCMP.pdf)
Title: Re: A little info on lead
Post by: CENTURION on February 11, 2019, 06:40:38 PM
Good info, the report states a few time guns rated at 600 fps or below, even low end gas ram guns are doing 1000 plus fps, I actually stopped shooting  my powerful guns indoors, they would almost vaporize a pellet when impacting a spinner. I think for indoor shooting I am going to use the alloy pellets only.