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Target Shooting Matches, Discussion & Events => Target Shooting Discussion Gate => Topic started by: Hoosier Daddy on February 03, 2018, 10:14:39 PM

Title: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on February 03, 2018, 10:14:39 PM
I am enjoying target matches and ready for the next step in pistols. I have been using my 2300KT and Home brewed 1740.
If I have about $500 in the play funds.
I know it is well under the amount of a PCP match grade gun... but of the two, a Baikal IZH-46M or the Chiappa FAS 6004, which would you choose?
First, here in the states the Izzy would be second hand while I can buy a new FAS.
We all know "out of the box" performance is key, so a pistol with a a reputation of one being better than the other is what I am looking for input on.
Yet long term support is very important. If I can not get support from Russia 3-5 years down the road has me worried.
 An excellent track record is desirable and I feel both of these fit the bill.

Turning to the masters here for thoughts / recommendations.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: ac12 on February 04, 2018, 02:14:07 AM
Neither.
The problem with the iZH-46 is the weight.  It is a rather heavy pistol.
I forget why I passed on the FAS.

Instead, I went with a used Pardini K-58, also a SSP, and a tier 1 pistol.
It was excellent in all respects.
Except my tendonitis did not like the SSP charging motion.

I suggest emailing or calling Pilkington Guns (www.pilkguns.com (http://www.pilkguns.com)) and ask what they have in their used air pistol inventory.
I bought both of my 10 APs from them; the SSP Pardini K58, and a co2 Walther CPM-1.
Pilkingtons will service what they sell.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on February 04, 2018, 05:25:52 AM
Interesting, I had no idea Pilkington sold used guns.
 Thanks!
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: truepaganini on February 07, 2018, 01:55:44 AM
I had an IZH but it was just way too heavy and I had to sell it. I've done some research on the fas 6004 and they're a great company. seems like a good entry level 10m gun if you dont want a pcp
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Frank in Fairfield on February 07, 2018, 10:45:36 AM
New IZH46M pistols are available from Canada..
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on February 07, 2018, 11:55:45 AM
Haven't found one yet.
baikalcanada.com out of stock as well as any other sellers I have found.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Frank in Fairfield on February 07, 2018, 04:55:06 PM
I see them on the Yellow Forum from time to time.
Mac1 can service them for you.
Maybe you will get lucky and find one like this.
490fps with 7 grain pellet:
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Joekrooz on February 07, 2018, 05:02:20 PM
I got a like new 46m im not using, just putting it out there ::).
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on February 07, 2018, 06:07:18 PM
PM sent to you on it Joe.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on February 07, 2018, 09:16:03 PM
Joe was kind enough to reply, even offered it less than listed originally, but still a tad out of reach.  :-\

So considering the two listed, how would a Weihrauch HW 75 stack up in my 10M pistol plan?
Yet another SSP but I know little about it.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: WyoMan on February 07, 2018, 10:09:29 PM
Hey Scott, I can compare the HW 75 with the FAS 6004, but I've got no direct experience with the Izzy.

Sorry for the photobomb but here's a pic of both:
(https://i.imgur.com/6rjcVr0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/NwsYn6r.jpg)

The FAS is a little lighter and has a much better grip. It also has a faster hammer (shorter lock time). That's noticeable when you shoot them enough. With the FAS, the pellet is gone before you would pull a shot with the HW 75. However, and this is big, the HW 75 trigger can be set much, much lighter so you won't generally pull any shots.

The HW 75 separate cocking action is the key to the better trigger. With over-lever SSP's (like the FAS) that normally cock during the lever action, you need adequate sear engagement to be safe. After all, the pellet is loaded and you're compressing the firing charge. The HW 75 is completely safe with a single-stage razor edge sear engagement.... you pull back the hammer right before you fire. If the engagement is too weak, the hammer won't cock. It's the only gun I have that can be set with a trigger that is too light to like (touch it and it fires).

They both have great build quality and similar accuracy potential. The over-lever design has the sights, barrel, and lever all in common fixation. The sights and adjustment of such are both excellent.
The HW 75 has a little more horsepower than the FAS but the difference is probably only 10 - 20 fps.

IMO, I would give a slight nod to the FAS because of the better grips and faster lock-time... hth-

Wyo
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on February 08, 2018, 06:50:54 AM
Thanks Wyo,
 That helps a lot.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Frank in Fairfield on February 08, 2018, 03:55:40 PM
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=139012.0;attach=215938;image (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=139012.0;attach=215938;image)
Click on the above then...
here is a group from the other day.
Not much difference between 10/20 yards..
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on February 08, 2018, 08:49:36 PM
Oh Frank... I saw that pic you posted... Thrust me it is a beauty and a severe lovey to me.

(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=139012.0;attach=215938;image)
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: ac12 on February 09, 2018, 07:48:21 PM
ISH-46 (heavy pistol) + scope = heavy setup, probably 2-hand hold.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Danny5691 on February 10, 2018, 05:49:31 AM
I've got both and the clear winner to me is the IZH. The new FAS has low velocity problems that need to be addressed by using a couple of shims behind the breech oring to make it seal properly. Also, the trigger is really nothing to write home about. It's a decent gun, but definitely not worth the money.

The Izzy is heavier, no doubt. And the grip is very basic, and doesn't feel anywhere as nice as the FAS grip. But the trigger and the accuracy are excellent. I'm much more accurate with the Izzy than the FAS. Personally, I think the extra weight up front on the Izzy helps steady my aim.

Now, do I think the Izzy is worth what people are asking for it used? Nope. I've seen them going for around $500. That's too much for this pistol. But the FAS price is worse imo. If you can get an Izzy for $300-325 shipped, in NEW condition than I'd say get it. But if you've got $500 then just save a little more and buy a used match gun from pilkguns.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Earl on February 10, 2018, 12:20:21 PM
You might want to buy a Beeman P-17 for $32.89 just for fun.
Don't be fooled by the low price.  The P-17s are ACCURATE.
My two P-17s are accurate with RWS Basic 7.0 grain pellets.
One has a 4x scope and the other just has the original open sights.

https://www.amazon.com/Beeman-Sportsman-Deluxe-Air-Pistol/dp/B000W30UAA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1518279057&sr=8-1&keywords=p17+pistol&dpID=31jOQMOXG0L&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch (https://www.amazon.com/Beeman-Sportsman-Deluxe-Air-Pistol/dp/B000W30UAA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1518279057&sr=8-1&keywords=p17+pistol&dpID=31jOQMOXG0L&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch)
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: fishyguy on February 10, 2018, 01:22:22 PM
Iíve owned two izh 46ís and after several months sold each as I never could get used to the front heavy balance. For me the balance point didnít feel just a little front heavy, it was like the center balance point was waaaay down the barrel.  Accuracy and function wise, they were good guns. Two handed shooting though for me.

The 6004 is lighter, very accurate, sexier if that matters. My only complaint is that it is very low power... around 340fps. So itís got enough power for paper but is a little lacking if you want to shoot much else. Iíd never sell it though, still like it that much. Compared to my hw40, Iíll take the 6004, but the hw40 isnít giving up much, and would win value for money wise.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: ac12 on February 10, 2018, 02:43:43 PM
The IZH-46 grip is meant to be fitted to your hand.
Round file and sandpaper (100 and 220 grit).

Go to this site to read Don Nygord's notes on fitting a grip
http://australiancynic.com/NYGORD.htm (http://australiancynic.com/NYGORD.htm)
"Modifying Your Pistol's Grip,"   part 1 and 2.
READ it, and READ it again.  Then really think about it, and plan what you are going to do, before you put file to wood.
Tip: remove the grip from the pistol, wrap the pistol in plastic wrap, put the grip back on.  The plastic wrap will help to keep the wood dust out of the mechanism.  Though you will have to have the trigger clear for your finger.  This is a DUSTY project.

If you take off too much wood, or you need to raise a low spot, try a knedable expoxy putty.  I think you can find it at Ace Hardware or any of big box hardware stores.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Deckard1973 on February 10, 2018, 02:54:13 PM
I have had my Izzy for . . . oh, must be over 10 years now (does not even show up in PA Your Order history anymore).
Yeah, she is a bit front end heavy, but I like my girls a little on the heavy side (better make sure my wife is not in the room to see that)! 
I have the scope/red dot mount too.
I love it! 

Isnt there someone in the Vender section who makes custom wood Izzy grips?  They are not cheap, but based off the pics the gentleman's wood work is top notch. 
Edit:  Here it is!  https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=103132.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=103132.0)
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Deckard1973 on February 10, 2018, 02:58:47 PM
I see them on the Yellow Forum from time to time.
Mac1 can service them for you.
Maybe you will get lucky and find one like this.
490fps with 7 grain pellet:

Where did you get that trigger?
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on February 10, 2018, 05:50:11 PM
Great info all thanks so much for sharing... Seems like it's a pro and cons to each.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Frank in Fairfield on February 11, 2018, 11:59:02 AM
I see them on the Yellow Forum from time to time.
Mac1 can service them for you.
Maybe you will get lucky and find one like this.
490fps with 7 grain pellet:

Where did you get that trigger?

PyramydAir..

Those grips are made by Steve Corcoran...See the LOGO?
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Nicolo on February 19, 2018, 08:30:32 PM
The new FAS has low velocity problems that need to be addressed by using a couple of shims behind the breech oring to make it seal properly. Also, the trigger is really nothing to write home about. It's a decent gun, but definitely not worth the money.

My own relationship with the FAS 6004 was a short one. The O ring sealing system is not sealing properly. After stoning the face and using four different sizes of O rings and washers it would still not work properly.

If FWB still made their SSP 103 I'd buy one in a heartbeat. Used ones do come up rarely, their owners know their value.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Nicolo on March 09, 2018, 08:40:40 PM
A little late to chime in (?) but when I ordered my Chiappa the std. grip wasn't available so I had to pay the premium for the so called target grip.
I immediately identified that the breech was not properly sealing to the receiver and the McMaster O ring didn't cure the issue.

The Chiappa was also much too light, for me, and I returned it under warranty.

The Weihrauch 75 has a US angle grip and not the 55į angle grip that works for me. No dice on that issue alone but it is a solid gun.

I now have a IZH 46-M with the Corcoran grip and the adjustable trigger height and angle. I use it daily for my bullseye practice in my garage and it is as good or better than any FWB SSP at half the cost.
 
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Danny5691 on March 19, 2018, 06:26:13 AM
A little late to chime in (?) but when I ordered my Chiappa the std. grip wasn't available so I had to pay the premium for the so called target grip.
I immediately identified that the breech was not properly sealing to the receiver and the McMaster O ring didn't cure the issue.

The Chiappa was also much too light, for me, and I returned it under warranty.

The Weihrauch 75 has a US angle grip and not the 55į angle grip that works for me. No dice on that issue alone but it is a solid gun.

I now have a IZH 46-M with the Corcoran grip and the adjustable trigger height and angle. I use it daily for my bullseye practice in my garage and it is as good or better than any FWB SSP at half the cost.

I had to use a .001 shim, fitted, behind the o-ring seat and use two standard 6004 orings stacked to get the velocity acceptable. Apparently all 6004's have this problem. If I'd known about this before the purchase I would've never spent the money on it. And I bought the Target model with the adjustable grip. IMO, it's a waste of money.

My Izzy is a much better gun. I put a new, polished, piston and seal in it and backed it out as far as it would go to get more power. I also added the Air Venturi adj. trigger, which made a big difference. It's very accurate and I'm thinking about getting some rink grips for it or maybe some other custom grips tailored to me for silhouette or PFT. Something that locks my hand into the grip.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Frank in Fairfield on March 19, 2018, 10:03:17 AM
Danny,
Steve makes them custom made to your hand.
Everyong who has shot my IZZY has loved them...
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: _Axel_ on April 09, 2018, 03:44:08 PM
No idea what you can get locally, but old high grade Co2 guns are available here in Europe for little money. And then there's the TAU-7, a very good gun, no front heavy balance like SSP's. Buy high quality used, is my best advice!

The HW75 is no real target pistol, its more like a very accurate plinker. I think most like it for two hands shooting. I never been totally happy with mine. For plinking a HW45 is more fun, if I want accuracy I grab a real match gun and do it properly!
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on April 09, 2018, 03:49:58 PM
Thanks Axel
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Nicolo on April 12, 2018, 08:49:09 PM
Let's not forget that Don Nygord won championships with a $39.00 Daisy 717 which he pronounced equal to a Feinwerkbau at 10X the price.
Daisy incorporated some of Nygord's advice in the 747 and then the 777, these last ones being rarer than hen's teeth and worth every penny when they come available.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Sky on April 21, 2018, 09:31:16 PM
I've had the Izzy for about 10 years now, back when you could buy it in the states.

It is furiously accurate. I don't notice the front heaviness. I use a 10m stance and raise and fire. If I don't like the sight picture I lower and do it again. So I'm not hanging it off my arm for any length of time. Also I made the grip fit my hand nearly perfectly.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on April 21, 2018, 09:52:27 PM
Thanks Ed. I am still debating and really want a match grade pistol.
Earlier today, I was reminded of the CZ Alfa Proj that is imported here by Air Arms. Just not much info on it I can find.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Sky on April 21, 2018, 10:28:34 PM
Let us know what you get. I was looking really hard at the Air Venturi V10 recently as a plinker.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: ac12 on April 22, 2018, 06:03:42 PM
I was not impressed by the Alpha.
I do not remember the details but it was short in several areas that made it not competitive.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Nicolo on May 20, 2018, 09:14:52 PM
The Izzy, a whopping 20 oz. heavier than my .45 ACP,  requires a perfect shoulder/arm stance.

The scapula -shoulder blade- must be kept down against the ribs for stability and the elbow must be locked with the joint at a 180į horizontal with only the wrist rotated to a vertical position.

Yes this gun is heavy but worst than the total weight is it's forward center of balance/gravity. This makes a tightly fitting grip absolutely essential so that the palm shelf can act as the fulcrum point for the locked arm=lever.

A custom grip is BTW not required. Some JB Weld Kwik-Wood epoxy and a 4-surface wood rasp is all you need, total under $20.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: ac12 on May 21, 2018, 12:46:42 AM
Let's not forget that Don Nygord won championships with a $39.00 Daisy 717 which he pronounced equal to a Feinwerkbau at 10X the price.
Daisy incorporated some of Nygord's advice in the 747 and then the 777, these last ones being rarer than hen's teeth and worth every penny when they come available.


The problem is Don could probably beat us shooting a BB gun.

Yes the Daisy 717/747 are quite decent starter match APs.  And they are not as heavy as the IZH-46.

One fault of the 7x7 is the grip.  They do not have the adjustable a palm shelf, and I don't know anyone that makes an aftermarket grip with an adjustable shelf for it.  The shelf helps to keep the pistol in your hand, without having to grip the pistol TIGHT.  And the metal frame + plastic grip is slippery if you have a sweaty hand like I do.  I had to put a small square of "non-skid" material on the backstrap, so that the grip would not slip and rotate in my hand.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Nicolo on May 21, 2018, 08:22:36 AM
My Daisy 777 weighs 51.78 oz. without any scope, over 6 oz. more than my Izzy and yet it is easier to hold because of its CG being further aft.
It also has hand made wood grips with a wide palm shelf -out of the box- which is adjustable through the simple addition of a little bit of Kwik-Wood on its top flat surface, resulting in a superb fit.
Stippling the grips is intended to be done once the forming of the shape is completed.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on May 21, 2018, 07:01:45 PM
I have seen the 777. Grips look much nicer than the 717 / 747. But MAN they are seldom .
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Nicolo on May 22, 2018, 03:19:44 PM
Daisy incorporated some of Nygord's advice in the 747 and then the 777, these last ones being rarer than hen's teeth and worth every penny when they come available.

Yes, Hoosier Daddy. I said so.  ;D
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: ac12 on December 20, 2018, 03:44:57 AM
HD,
What did you get?
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on December 20, 2018, 06:46:49 AM
None of the above yet,
I converted a 2240 to a 1740, added some nice grips and smoothed out the internals.
That curbed the 10M pistol desire for a while.
 Still looking for a nice one though.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: maraudinglizard on December 20, 2018, 07:27:59 AM
None of the above yet,
I converted a 2240 to a 1740, added some nice grips and smoothed out the internals.
That curbed the 10M pistol desire for a while.
 Still looking for a nice one though.

Scott I wouldn't balk at the Daisy Powerline 7xx series, they are nice, not so heavy target pistol. Mine is over 30yrs old and still going strong. It averages about 385fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/5IRNM54.jpg)
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Hoosier Daddy on December 20, 2018, 09:13:37 AM
I have been watching for a 777.  ;)
 There are ones that comes up every once in a while, but they always get bid up past my budget.
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: GKU on December 20, 2018, 10:35:34 AM
Carved the grip down on my IZZY a while back in 2004 because of it bulky feel for my hand size.
I bought it new for under $400 back then but can't remember for the life of me where ?

Like the gun compared to the top cocking types out there which made for a harder effort for me than the under cocking types.
Like its weight/front heavy it has its advantages if your an optimist.

Though I seen a secondhand one for sale at Precision Airguns recently ?
All in all good luck with your decision, a tough world when it comes to make up your mind in the AirGun world ....  ....  ..        .

(https://i.ibb.co/M55gdpz/P8270479.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CsswLvj)


(https://i.ibb.co/ZgvLRsv/P8270480.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fNZ1VRZ)

(https://i.ibb.co/vYtr3zd/P8270481.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jRpxy4w)

(https://i.ibb.co/hcj4HMN/P8270482.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RNmsPSK)

~ Greg
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: Frank in Fairfield on December 20, 2018, 09:46:40 PM
Carved the grip down on my IZZY a while back in 2004 because of it bulky feel for my hand size.
I bought it new for under $400 back then but can't remember for the life of me where ?

Like the gun compared to the top cocking types out there which made for a harder effort for me than the under cocking types.
Like its weight/front heavy it has its advantages if your an optimist.

Though I seen a secondhand one for sale at Precision Airguns recently ?
All in all good luck with your decision, a tough world when it comes to make up your mind in the AirGun world ....  ....  ..        .

(https://i.ibb.co/M55gdpz/P8270479.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CsswLvj)


(https://i.ibb.co/ZgvLRsv/P8270480.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fNZ1VRZ)

(https://i.ibb.co/vYtr3zd/P8270481.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jRpxy4w)

(https://i.ibb.co/hcj4HMN/P8270482.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RNmsPSK)

~ Greg

Looks good Greg.
Now change that trigger:
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: GKU on December 21, 2018, 02:12:19 AM
Thanks Frank ..... absolutely, soon I'm thinking .........
(https://i.ibb.co/WK36wxc/P1013457.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SvxP8sK)

~ Aloha, Greg
Title: Re: 10M pistol- IZH-46M or FAS 6004?
Post by: ac12 on December 21, 2018, 02:41:22 AM
I have been watching for a 777.  ;)
 There are ones that comes up every once in a while, but they always get bid up past my budget.

Just get the 747, and start shooting.
The 777 is for collectors.