GTA
Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 and springers ,rams => Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 => Topic started by: gta-ken on September 30, 2015, 01:28:10 AM
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Let me start by saying please don't try to sell me a used tank. At this point, I'm just looking to compare my options for a new one. I'm considering one of the smaller (about 90 cu. in.) tanks primarily for cost, size, weight, portability, and convenience. I have a paintball store close by that will fill one for about $6.00 and don't shoot much anyway, so it's very difficult to justify the larger, more expensive tanks. I did the math. I could fill the 90 ci tank enough times to get well over 50,000 shots from a P-rod with a factory tune for the price difference (compared to cheapest 88 cu ft tank I could find). Needless to say, there is no way I'm going to shoot over 50,000 PCP shots in the next 15 years, and it's unlikely I will shoot that many shots from all of my guns combined over the next 15 years. This assumes the cheaper tank will last me 15 years, which may be a bad assumption, but there is no guarantee the bigger tank will last that long either.
I talked to Joe B. last week. He was very helpful and knowledgeable and from what I've seen at his website, he sells top-shelf products. My only concern is that the cheapest tank (Guppie) will cost about $150 to over $200 more (depending on options) than the 90 ci Air Venturi or Ninja with regulated fill station that I can get on sale with free shipping or even buy locally. I like the idea of a more precise top off from a slow flow valve vs. regulated output, but a properly working regulated tank should protect me from overfilling, right? I also like the micro bore hoses and second gauge option that tells me the remaining pressure in the tank, but I'm not really sure if I need that anyway because I'll know when the tank is getting low based on the fill pressure. Do you guys think these things are worth all the extra money? It appears his Guppie tank is also slightly larger at 118 ci, and that could help justify the added cost as well. I've read a couple of posts regarding "different ways to measure tank capacity". Is the Joe B 118 ci tank really over 30% higher in capacity than the 90 ci tank? Based on pictures at his website, it appears to have about the same physical dimensions as the 90 ci paintball tanks. I can't find anyone other than him that sells the 118 ci tanks either. Does he have some kind of exclusive deal with a manufacturer? The highest capacity paint ball tank I can find is 90 ci.
The Benjamin tank is right in the middle in terms of price point between the Joe B and Ninja/Air Venturi. Does anyone have experience with this tank, and if so, how do you like it? Why is it more expensive than the Air Venturi and Ninja fill stations? It looks like the only differences are that it has a slow flow valve (unregulated, like the Joe B tanks) and comes with a longer microbore hose. As with the Joe B tank, I would have to be careful not to overfill. That makes me a little nervous as a beginner that's new to PCP guns. How well do the slow flow valves work with a really small reservoir like the one on the P-rod? I'm concerned that I may accidentally overfill using an unregulated tank to top off something like a P-rod with the small 65 cc reservoir. I don't want to overfill my gun! What do you think of the Benjamin fill station? What are your thoughts on regulated tanks vs ones with slow flow valves?
Finally, the Air Venturi and Ninja tanks are priced virtually the same and appear to have the same features. The big plus for these is price. Not only are they the least expensive, I can get an even better deal because there are sales and free shipping on them, and I even have the option to buy the Ninja fill station at a local paintball shop. Have you guys used these tanks and if so what do you think of them? I want something that will get the job done, last a long time, and be safe and reliable. These are the most important things to me. I plan to use the tank on either a P-rod or M-rod (still deciding). After considering the 25 M-rod, I'm now leaning toward the P-rod because of it's compact size and weight and because I think the M-rod has more power than I need.
Thanks once again for all your help and patience! I never knew I was going to have to spend so much time researching all this stuff when I first started looking.
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The "97 CF" Great White is actually an 88 CF tank, exactly the same volume as the 60 min. SCBA tanks.... the internal "water" volume is 550 CI, just like a Luxfer Tank.... It is a simple mistake in calculation using Boyle's Law instead of including the VanDerWaal's correction which becomes important at over 3000 psi.... a 4500 psi tank actually contains about 10% less air than Boyle's Law says it should....
Bob
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You forgot AirHog.com. John very graciously answered several questions I had on fittings for a used tank I just bought. Sure seems like good people.
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The Guppy measurement of 114-118 Cu In (depending on date of manufacture) is the true water volume of the tank, and may be directly compared to the other tanks volume of 90 Cu In Tanks. (both measure water volume of tank)
Water Volume is the best method to measure tanks.
Guppy =114 Cu In (FYI = 18 Cu Ft & uses VanDerWaal Calculation)
As for the Benajamin, or the "Joe B" Tank, they both have the TJ3 Slo-Flo valve. (ATFS provide the TJ3 valves with single gauge to Crosman as per their request). Unlike an SCBA or SCUBA tank that is made to flow air quickly for breathing, TJ3 Valves have a restriction when pressurizing the airgun to slow down the fill (but not when pressurizing the Guppy, as the restrictor is one-way). The TJ3 is designed so that if you wide open the valve, it should take about 10 seconds to fill a Marauder from 2000 PSI up to 3000 PSI. 10 seconds should definitely be enough time to react and close the valve. The benefit of a TJ3 Slo-Flo vavle is you aren't tied to only a 2900 PSI fill regulator. With the regulated tanks, you can't fill a 2000 PSI Discovery, nor a 3500-4500 PSI Bullpup. The TJ3 will allow one to fill to any pressure desired safely.
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I'll add that as an owner of the AV tank, when I was using the regulated valve to fill my Disco, it was pretty hard to hit right on 2000 psi. As soon as I cracked that valve, it wanted to fill much faster than I felt safe doing. I was either cutting it off way too soon or pushing past my fill point. If 2900 is the only pressure you ever want to fill to, it would get the job done.
After getting my Synrod (and other PCPs) and getting comfortable filling the guns, I wanted more control over the valve as I started testing the guns with different fill pressures. I bought the TJ3 valve from Joe B and now have tons more control over my fill points with the tank.
I would have saved money just going with the Guppy setup to begin with...just another hard lesson.
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I have yet to meet a tank valve that could not very precisely meter and control the fill rate from a CF tank charged to 4k5 psi. I have OTOH met with a charge-from-empty situations that cold not be fixed with a 'slow fill', restricted valve. When filling, it is best to assume something can go wrong and pay attention v. assuming some device will save you and relax the attention.
cheers,
Douglas
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If you are physically able why not just use a quality hand pump? Many have used only hand pumps for years and are very pleased with them.
I used a hand pump for a couple of days with my Disco and decided it just was not for me so ordered a complete Guppy setup along with a ShoeBox Max compressor to fill it as thee are no close / convenient fill stations.
I shoot almost daily and my Guppy works great for me. Control is so easy that you can just crack the valve open and it will fill the line to the point that tank gauge and Disco gauge match and then crack it a bit more and you can easily stop the fill at any point and gauge has 100 PSI graduations on it.
Disco is 135 cc so just over twice that of yours.
AS posted above even using a non slow flow valve controlled fills are not that difficult. I have a setup much like the one here in the video here (Sticky Post in PCP Support Forum)
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=34730.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=34730.0)
and it works just fine also.
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ATFS provide the TJ3 valves with single gauge to Crosman as per their request
That's funny, I have a Benjamin tank with a ATFS marked valve and (non strain relief) hose and when I called to ask about getting a replacement hose and mentioned it had an ATFS assembly on top, the individual at ATFS I talked to had no idea what I was talking about. I'm sorry, but I do not remember their name.
We got it sorted out, with a new host and foster qd on the valve, but those unrelieved hoses that Crosman ships by default are worthless, and replacing it isn't cheap at all.
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You forgot AirHog.com. John very graciously answered several questions I had on fittings for a used tank I just bought. Sure seems like good people.
Second the AirHog.com recommendation.
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ATFS provide the TJ3 valves with single gauge to Crosman as per their request
That's funny, I have a Benjamin tank with a ATFS marked valve and (non strain relief) hose and when I called to ask about getting a replacement hose and mentioned it had an ATFS assembly on top, the individual at ATFS I talked to had no idea what I was talking about. I'm sorry, but I do not remember their name.
We got it sorted out, with a new host and foster qd on the valve, but those unrelieved hoses that Crosman ships by default are worthless, and replacing it isn't cheap at all.
My apology if my helper wasn't aware. He is learning as time goes by.
Always ask for me (Joe), and mention the forum. I will take care of you personally and add GTA forum discounts.
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I have a guppy and SB. Works great. No complaints outside of it being a little pricey.
Make sure the extra features that you are considering to forgo to reduce initial cost don't quickly bite you.
2nd gauge: It is always great to know what is left in the tank at quick glance vs attach a dead head. If you end up with only one pcp (unlikely ;)) and keep detailed records, might be able to predict when near empty. Potential to ruin a Sunday shoot when tank is empty and paintball store closed.
Foster connector on both ends: I originally purchased so I had the option to fill my Mrods from zero direct from SB. It also makes it much easier for storage or transport. ie no hose always hanging out. My guppy has a protective O2 cover, and use a large plastic coffee container to cover and protect the valve and gauges. The hose rolls up nicely in the bottom of the can. The Ninja fill stations look vulnerable in pictures, but haven't handled one. If you have no plans to transport and use at other locations, then maybe not that important to you.
Gauge accuracy: Gun gauges are not accurate and vary. It is good to have an accurate fill for tuning and consistency.
Just something to think about so you make the right choices for your use.
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Well, I had a 2900-3000 regulated 100 ci bottle. Bought a Vulcan and needed a higher fill pressure. Sold the regulated bottle (lost money) and bought a used Guppy. Couldn't be happier - well I would be if I had bought it first :P
Get the guppy and when you change guns, you will be set. Do get the second gauge option. It'll save air since you won't have to dead head the hose to get bottle pressure.
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My apology if my helper wasn't aware. He is learning as time goes by.
Always ask for me (Joe), and mention the forum. I will take care of you personally and add GTA forum discounts.
No complaints, we did get it all sorted out, and I am very happy with the parts I received. Probably going to buy a bigger tank, too, after my next pcp purchase...
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I got the Joe B Guppy with dual Gauge set up and absolutely no complaints also bought the Freedom 8 at the same time filling 3 PCP rifles with a hand pump was boring and cut into my trigger time
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I got the Great White with all the bells and whistles. I could not be happier. Did it cost more than I wanted to spend? Yes. Every time I fill my tank someone asks me where I got it and I watch them drool. :) For a good tank with exceptional set up I highly recommend Joe, and if you have any problems he will stand firmly behind his product. If I ever have the cash I will get a compressor from him as well.
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Joe B. Guppy + Shoebox Max = total freedom. You won't find better quality+support+expertise. Sell that PB safe queen to fund them, and enjoy unlimited air.
Gary
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As always, thanks for all of your help everyone. I'm waiting to see how big my bonus is from work before I decide. I like the extra gauge that shows tank pressure of the Joe B tank. Plus his tanks hold a little more air than the 90 ci tanks. These are both considerations. I don't need a big tank and if I don't option it with all the extras, that should help with price too.
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Always ask for me (Joe), and mention the forum. I will take care of you personally and add GTA forum discounts.
I've been kicking around the idea of buying a CF tank from you for a little while. Would I be out of line to ask exactly how much discount you give to GTA forum members?
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Always ask for me (Joe), and mention the forum. I will take care of you personally and add GTA forum discounts.
I've been kicking around the idea of buying a CF tank from you for a little while. Would I be out of line to ask exactly how much discount you give to GTA forum members?
GTA discount??? Every penny counts when spending $2500-500 every time I buy.
Im still up in the air on a Omega Guppy or Joe B guppy when all said and done Omega a little bit lighter on the wallet. ::) ;) ;)
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I have owned/used air Venturi = benji ,omega hog and JoeB tanks. Eases of use and quality do not compare. I have sold or traded up to JoeB tanks. I still have to upgrade my guppy. I wish I has started with JoeB tanks. Quality safety and use trump supposedly savings.
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I never had anything but JoeB stuff so have no clue on anything else.... but a GTA discount would be nice! ;D
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I have the Benjamin 90 ci tamk. The combination of small size and smaller slo-flo valve is a real winner in terms of maximum usability and lowest weight. It's very easy to check the pressure with a deadhead, but truthfully I don't have to check very often. I'm filling a PRod and a 1701P, and there are lots of fills for every trip to the dive shop. I also use a pump regularly which gives me redundant air sources.
The unregulated valve is great. It's easy to control the gun fill pressure, and I can keep using air until it gets down to 2000 psi and I switch back to the pump.
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I support Joe B & all he does for the air gun community. His prices might be a bit higher, but his quality is higher as well. I vote for quality on air guns & air gun support equipment.