GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: chekbone on August 25, 2015, 01:06:35 PM
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Since most of the tech guys seem to be on here, with easy access, has anybody trying it out or proofed the concept? I just want another opinion if it's gonna work before I take my gun to a machine shop.
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There is a sticky on another forum about this. If that is what you are referring too, then I think that sticky should be taken down. The mods detailed there in no way secure the valve. The OP talks about securing the end cap in case of failure. Securing the end cap won't prevent failure. A failure means a trashed pistol. Yes, it may contain the valve if the screw shears, but its still a trashed gun and is still dangerous.
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He calls it the Powerplay mod. Lol.
This was on the hipac forum and says nothing about the valve. It's supposed to be a way to swap out the striker and probe without taking the gun apart. Says you have to mill and drill the breech and tube. Then all you have to remove are the end plug, end cap, and rear grip screw. But you don't have to remove the breech or barrel from the tube to change the striker or probe. It's something powermax says he came uo with.
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We're reading the same thing then. I just assumed that the purpose of the mod was to "strengthen" the gun for higher pressures, which I've already said what I think about that. If the purpose is to change out striker and probe easily, then I must be confused because I don't understand how that is achieved. Maybe I'd have to read the other thread the OP mentioned...
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I don't think you read what i read cause i didn't read anything confusing about it. It actually makes a lot of sense. I just don't have any machining tools to do it and was just wondering if anybody on the tech side of things had any thoughts. I didn't have to strengthen anything behind the valve. I have the hipac mod. I did upgrade the valve screw to a 8/32, was rough doing it by hand, but nothing else. Here's the link to the post
http://www.network54.com/Forum/665650/message/1440109364/The+%26quot%3BPowerMax-PowerPlay%26quot%3B+mod.+Quickly+change+the+Probe-Striker+in+your+22XX. (http://www.network54.com/Forum/665650/message/1440109364/The+%26quot%3BPowerMax-PowerPlay%26quot%3B+mod.+Quickly+change+the+Probe-Striker+in+your+22XX.)
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I'm confused about what he's doing.
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I get how it works now. What I don't get is the desire to do it. Basically you just avoid having to mess with breech screw, and that's the only possible justification for doing the mod, but I really dint think it's worth the hassle. I've taken that little breech screw out dozens of times without a problem.
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What probe is he talking about. A probe is something you fill your gun with air right?
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I think I get it. I'm not going to butcher up my gun because I'm to lazy to disassemble the gun correctly.
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What probe is he talking about. A probe is something you fill your gun with air right?
A probe is a lot of things. It can also be the finger used in a prostate exam, LOL. Isn't it called a probe, like the Vector probe and Hollow probe. It'll be cool if you have an assortment of striker weights. I get it too.
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For starters, Alex (Powermax/HiPAC dude) has a major chip on his shoulder. Apparently someone, sometime, suggested that if you put a HiPAC into a 22xx and didn't drill and tap for a couple of proper screws to secure the valve into the main tube, the valve might come flying out the back of the cylinder with 3,000psi behind it. Take your eye out sort of thing. Alex has been mentioning this countless times in his dedicated network54 forum, always with a 'lol' appended, apparently because he thinks the whole notion of high pressure air being dangerous in the hands of beginner modders is laughable. Alex is a bit of an idiot. More than a bit in my opinion. Anyway, he's been kicked out of bunches of forums for his belligerent attitude and habit of abusing other members whenever he gets even the slightest whiff of something which could be taken as a criticism of his product... sigh.
Now as to this 'powerplay' mod, seems to me his point is simple enough. He's 'invented' a way to carve up a 2240 such that it's easy to swap probes and hammers without dismantling the gun whenever you happen to want a different probe and/or hammer for some reason. All you have to do, he says, is pull your rear caps and pop out the parts, then swap in whatever other parts you're feeling like using. I guess if you only want 1 2240 and yet for some reason you want to trade parts a lot, but don't want to dismount your scope or undo your breech screw or whatever, then this might indeed be handy. Personally I'm at a loss as to what sort of person (besides Alex) would want to do this, but to each his own.
The question of 'what's a probe' came up. Alex just means the bolt, whether it's got a hollow or an extended probe on the front of it. The 2240 is a bolt gun. But for some reason he wants to call it a probe gun. Something to do with aliens maybe...
The HiPAC is a great device, if very crudely made, and with some tender loving care can be made to function beautifully. I wish someone with a better attitude than this jerk would make one to higher standards. I'd be happy to pay double for a finely finished version, one which I didn't have to troubleshoot for days to get it to stop leaking so I could get on with shooting. But I've done all that troubleshooting, done all the polishing inside, changing seals to superior materials etc, and have even modified a Lane regulator to fit my HiPAC. Loving it. Would love it even more if I hadn't developed such a strong dislike for the man through the process of seeking support in his forum. His extreme insecurity and rudeness just go along with the quality of his product I guess. A fellow in Quebec was recently asking me about putting his new Lane Lancet CO2/HPA conversion regulator into his new HiPAC, and he was rather dismayed to find that the single extension tube looked like someone had run a dull threading tap up it while wiggling the drill... Sounds worse than mine, slightly. I recommended he carefully polish the first inch to provide a good sealing surface and then try not to think about the rest of the inside of the thing. A perfect example of medium low grade Chinese manufacturing.
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I get how it works now. What I don't get is the desire to do it. Basically you just avoid having to mess with breech screw, and that's the only possible justification for doing the mod, but I really dint think it's worth the hassle. I've taken that little breech screw out dozens of times without a problem.
If you have different probes, or different weight strikers it'll sure make it easy to match up the best combo. He's supposed to be making a heavier striker that's supposed to be weight adjustable. Maybe sometimes the striker weight is the problem since you can't reduce the weight of it. If nobody's ever done it it's unexplored territory. He's talking about the rear breach screw not the little one. I don't use that little screw anyway so's not an issue for me.
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He's working on a heavier striker? Why? Adjustable I can understand, if by adjustable he means to allow removal of segments to get the weight below stock. But you can push a 2240 with an 18" barrel up above 35fpe with a HiPAC, a few minor valve and TP mods, a heavier but shortened hammer spring with some preload on it, and a 30% lighter than stock striker, so it seems odd that anyone would consider going to a heavier than stock striker.
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Probe the end of the bolt that pushes the pellet into the barrel. I get that but have never heard of it just called a probe.
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Apparently someone, sometime, suggested that if you put a HiPAC into a 22xx and didn't drill and tap for a couple of proper screws to secure the valve into the main tube, the valve might come flying out the back of the cylinder with 3,000psi behind it.
Is this actually possible? I've read where people say they read it happened but can't find a single post. And I've searched for hipac topics on every airgun forum that came up in a web search. Did a lot of reading before I got one. The parts don't look that perfect but the price is good and it does what he says. Mine was leaking at the joint like a balloon with a hole in it but that was my fault. He explained that I may have pulled the oring too far to one side and stretched the other side when I put it back on. Did what he said and not a problem since. He's been cool with me so far. Two sides to every story dictates a 50/50 fairness rule i have to read about it for myself, but haven't found it yet.
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I would not put 3000psi into a 2240 without properly securing the valve. If someone showed up with one of those and not done right I would leave the area quickly.
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I doubt a valve has come out the back of a tube, unless it was while the HiPAC was full of pressure and the gun was in pieces, then it could easily happen because there'd be nothing but one screw holding the valve and open air behind it. But the rear grip screw would easily hold the valve while high pressure air dumped out the transfer port and the several slots in the main tube. Your hand would get cold, might even hurt a lot, but the valve would not escape the tube. There are other ways in which a HiPAC can be dangerous. I documented the details of one way which happened to me on his forum. Step by step, hundreds of words describing exactly what happened leading up to there being 2,200psi trapped in the HiPAC and the 2240 main tube's front end, forcing me to unscrew the thing in a vise, very, very slowly, until BANG, the little black seal went flying past the HiPAC to who knows where. My ears rang for a while. Shook me up. But Alex decided to insult me, multiple times, and insist that what happened didn't happen.
Same thing as when the tiny O-ring on the fill poppet of the HiPAC blew back out alongside the aluminum valve stem. Didn't happen says Alex. But, um, it did. I finally resolved that problem (the setup of that valve doesn't suit a standard O-ring at 3,000psi) by making a 95 durometer urethane seal about half as thick as the O-ring. Works great.
Like I said earlier, it's potentially a great product. And at 2,000psi it often works as-supplied. Alex frequently recommends people don't go higher than 2,000psi. he doesn't himself. But he sells a product stating it can be used to 3,000psi safely, that he's tested it to 5,000psi without problems, so one might easily expect it to work as sold. Without extensive modifications such as polishing all the joints between tubes to a mirror finish to stop all the leaks. Or making a high tech plastic valve face seal after modifying the valve seal seat to allow for a pressed-in plastic seal, after having two of his magical black plastic seals chewed into nonsense shapes by higher than 2,000psi pressure. It's misrepresentation of the product. He should sell it as going to 2,000psi, or to 3,000psi with EXTENSIVE modifications to the product itself.
And yes, sixshootertexan, I heartily agree. I've used 10-32 set screws on both sides and beefed up the stock bottom screw to 10-32 as well. 3 bolts seems pretty secure. Hasn't budged in months of use. But since adding the regulator I don't have to worry about that so much as the pressure in the last stage of the HiPAC never goes over 850psi.
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There is a sticky on another forum about this. If that is what you are referring too, then I think that sticky should be taken down. The mods detailed there in no way secure the valve. The OP talks about securing the end cap in case of failure. Securing the end cap won't prevent failure. A failure means a trashed pistol. Yes, it may contain the valve if the screw shears, but its still a trashed gun and is still dangerous.
Because you mention securing the valve...
http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/thread/1328765973/Examining+the+hipac....the (http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/thread/1328765973/Examining+the+hipac....the)
Gerard...you may not have been around the forums during the "controversy"...Alex was dumped on HARD by a lot of folks...three in particular, but I will also add myself as a fourth in that if I'm being honest.:-[
Believe it was Walter who brought it to my attention that the valve face wasn't seeing 3000psi, which ended up being a doh moment for me. I should have known better...I did know better. :-[
In the end, I issued a public apology for my part, which Alex accepted. I also carried out a 5/3rds mwp hydro test on a hipac unit he sent me. 5000psi for 3 hrs with no sign of yield. Test conducted 3 times using a Budenberg dead weight tester...beyond "dead nuts" accurate.
Believe me, if you'd been dumped on the way he was...you would be a tad bitter too. Know I would.
Al
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I'm not knocking the product itself but feel it cost more than just replacing the tube. You can get a 2250,2260, or disco tube, valve and fill adapter from Crosman cheaper than a Hipac. If you get a 2250 or 2260 tube you'll just need the drill the 2 extra holes.
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Thank you for spelling all that out Gippeto, I wasn't around for any of that. I have checked in now and then on the HiPAC forum and have twice this summer seen Alex attacking Bob Sterne for things he's said in this forum. Checking up on what Alex was basing his attacks on I could find no fault with what Bob was saying in either instance. And you're saying it was Bob who, at least on one point, came to Alex's defense? Makes me wonder how Alex treats his actual enemies!
And of course the valve face only sees the pressure of the hand-tightening of the HiPAC, though the seal itself must withstand the entire pressure of the air inside the HiPAC. That's why the black seal so often fails. Alex claims it's because people are over-tightening the thing, but I tried very lightly and pumped... and it leaked... tried a bit harder, a millimetre of HiPAC tightening at a time, and it leaked, and leaked, and leaked... I finally got mine to hold air when I'd really tightened it hard, about 1/2 rotation beyond moderately hand tight. That's when the seal blew. So technically I suppose he's right; it did fail in relation to being over-tightened. But it wouldn't hold air until I'd tightened it that much! Bit of an obvious catch 22. My stepped ertalyte seal works great. He could produce something like that in bulk for less than 50 cents per seal, but he chooses not to. He's arrogant and irrational and slings mud at every opportunity.
You may feel personal regret at having been on the wrong side of that particular argument, bit I don't buy that such an episode gives Alex any sort of excuse to behave the way he does routinely. In his safe little forum sandbox he gets to cherry pick the comments which get posted. My last attempt to post there many months ago never saw the light of day, as it listed all the many flaws with his product and that was unacceptable. Instead he posted a rude comment aimed at insulting me personally and a couple of his fan boys jumped on the bandwagon. Oh fun. No, I have no patience for the man. He's an obnoxious twit.
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Never mentioned any connected names other than Alexs and my own...and Walter for setting me straight.
You belittle his product at every opportunity...not surprising in the least that he would choose to not have your comments on his forum. If I constantly shot down your skill as a luthier would you welcome my comments on your blog or forum? Lets be realistic.
It isn't perfect...it IS what it IS...and works for most folks in the way it's intended to. Could make you a nicer one, but it WOULD have a price attached to it that you'd likely find less palatable.
My regret is for blindly following someones belief when I should have thought it through for myself...might have been able to end the BS sooner...and would be responsible for less of it than I ended up being. Believe me, I've no issue with calling "a spade a spade" if I see it as one.
And now we're dreadfully off topic. :o
Would personally choose to not modify any of my 2240s in the described manor. If it appeals to you...it's yours...go for it. :D
In the worst case, it's a new breech and tube to get back to the point from whence you came. ;)
Al
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All i wanted to know was what people thought of the mod. Didn't mean for it to become a personal. Gippeto, i think you hit the nail on the head. Somebody seems bitter. Sometimes one just get full of BS. Form what I've read he's been given a lot of it to eat on just about every forum I've come across, except his. Actuall Gerard, he states on his site that shooters with "unmodified" guns not go over 2000 psi. I didn't read what you're saying anywhere. I read the LOL about the valve flying out as a "they can't be serious" joke. I haven't been around but a two months or so but I can't see how it could happen. On his forum he says what you need to do to your gun to shoot at 3000 psi. Maybe he's perturbed because people give bad info to the masses. I've read some of it on his forum. Heck, spread a word to the masses that I said something I didn't and I'll get perturbed too. Reminds me of an old TV show called Both Sides of the Story. Just my thoughts.
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I do point out the flaws in the HiPAC when the subject comes up, true enough. As I explained to Alex after he insulted me both in his forum and in a private email, I would make it my business to let people know what kind of person and product they were dealing with. He gave me a 'lol' to that, but I've held to my word. A few specifics:
* My HiPAC's single extension tube was coated inside with a waxy red-brown substance, possibly a cutting lube or a polishing compound, which was not soluble in alcohol nor in acetone. I had to manually scrub out several grams of this material.
Alex's answer: "Don't know about red pasty chunks, which sounds a bit exaggerated. Maybe there a big chunk under the fill nipple. You have too many problems for you not to be the cause of any."
* My extension tube to rear section joint leaked until after I'd polished it carefully a couple of times, then used hydraulic grease and a lot of pressure to tighten it onto the third O-ring I tried (my own; his supplied 2 O-rings were both lower grade).
Alex's answer: "I guarantee it to work, not look pristine. I think you're having some user issues."
* My fill nipple started leaking after a couple of dozen fills to 2,000psi and a few fills to 3,000psi. I had to make a custom hard urethane washer and burnish the seal seat which was very bumpy, sloppily machined.
Alex's answer: "May have been a mishap on my part, don't know. I ream the fill-nipple seat with drill n bit. Maybe after two years my bit is dull and skipping. I'll have to look at it. I guarantee it to hold pressure, not look pretty"
That's just some of it. Most of his nonsense he's long since deleted from his forum.
As for paying more for a better-made product, I have no problem doing that. I have a $2,000 Pardini K12 which never needs any fussing, it just shoots exactly the same every time I pull the trigger. I wouldn't expect to pay that kind of money for a mere air reservoir, but something along the lines of what a Pardini cylinder costs, about $350, wouldn't bother me if the product were up to those sorts of standards. Even half way between the two in terms of workmanship would be perfectly acceptable. But the inside of a HiPAC is so poorly finished that the European regulator maker Huma-air said, when I asked if he'd consider making one for the HiPAC: "The HiPac units doesn't match with our standards, so we are not interested in
any development into this direction."
Still, I've made mine work, and work well, and with a Lane regulator slightly modified to fit. The strength, at least, is there with a HiPAC. That and the fact that it threads easily into a Crosman main tube are about the only positive things I can say about the product as supplied to me. Alex's over-riding answer to all my complaints? "You could have done what most sensible buyers would have done and asked for a part replacement." Yeah, I could have. But judging from the second unit I had ordered at the same time for a friend, which I inspected, there really isn't a lot of variation in workmanship. It's pretty shabby.
And yes Gippeto, if I started doing shabby work, I'd of course expect people to dump all over me online and in conversations with other musicians. But I don't do shabby work. Why would anyone, really? Perhaps because, as with Alex, they just don't care?
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Gerard, if you had all of those problems couldn't you have just sent it back. Seems it would have been alot less trouble. Not like the guys a car dealership where once you drive it off the lot it's your to keep. Mine was as clean as a whistle and worked the day i got it. I screwed it up because I wanted to see what was in it so I took it apart. The inside was a little rough but it doesn't affect how it works. I posted directly to him on his forum and he was in touch within two hours. Maybe you just got a bad one. Don't know, but the guy's been more than straight with me and seems prettylevel headed and knows his products. I would venture to bet that you're forgetting some of the finer conversation points. Maybe you insulted him first and he retaliated in kind. I read a lot of those post from years back. I don't know and i don't care.
I was posting to talk shop, not Alex.
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Off topic, sure, I guess. But Alex is still happily bashing away at Gippeto and rsterne in his forum:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/665650/message/1440086868/Giving+bad+info%2C+then+admitting+it+was+wrong-+That+takes+a+bit+of+character. (http://www.network54.com/Forum/665650/message/1440086868/Giving+bad+info%2C+then+admitting+it+was+wrong-+That+takes+a+bit+of+character.)
Does't name Gippeto, but this reference, considering what Gippeto said last evening, makes it pretty clear:
I don't expect there to be any added stress on the valve, but there's no problem with the set-screw. I messed up another tube testing my SS screw in the HiFlo valve. The old GEN1 with the hex nut on top was perfect for wrenching the HiPAC in until it bottomed out against the tube. I didn't get a torque wrench reading. They said that that's no way to test the shear strength but don't remember which idiot said it, but it wasn't Bob. It deformed the backside of the set-screw hole in the tube and but the screw didn't give way. I'm guessing it'll work as well in the other direction. Right now the only difference is that mine is heavier, lol. I haven't taken my gun apart to test it. Guess I could put one of my other ones back together. I'm also considering making it adjustable for weight. I got that figured out too. That would really change things. I'm still waiting for the HiPAC to vanish ("dang" a slow leak) and fill the tube with 3Kpsi and explode. He said it would so it must be true...since he said it.
And from later in the thread on his 'forum' where he's someone's asking him who he's talking about:
"The long time pain-in-the-@ss negative-basher old fart."
Seems Alex hasn't moved on, though apparently it's been years, Gippeto. He just keeps confirming what I'm saying about his nature. A leopard can't change his spots.
But back to the subject at hand... Apparently he still hasn't actually done this slot-milling operation himself, it remains a thought experiment. No doubt it'll do something like he suggests it will, making swapping out bolts and hammers simpler. Which may well be cool for someone who wishes to experiment with a range of options for both. It'll be interesting to see if anyone actually does, and documents the results gleaned, to contribute to the body of knowledge available for would-be 2240 tuners.
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I'll take a page out of my "Grown-@$$ Man Book". Any man who's man enough to specifically point out that a person didn't say something is man enough to point out the specific person who did. From what i've read the guy had too many critics to name them all. He does mention Bob a few times where he disagreed with the information Bob gave, but I've also read where he gave Bob credit or even steered somebody Bob's way for information. Why would you even bother to copy and paste that in my post. I thought forums were for sharing information. Not to judge but it sounds like you have it in for the guy yourself.
I'd just like to add. One could see it as if he were making reference to Bob alone with every other old fart that bashed his head in. SO YEAH, maybe he needs to clean up &^^& like that a little bit. He ain't human.
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I was responding to yours and Gippeto's stated opinions, which seemed to indicate that Alex has moved on. He plainly hasn't, as he continues up to this week to call people names and besmirch their reputations publicly. Grown man? Hardly.
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Well, since Alex is still calling me names, I guess I should check in.... Yes, I was pretty hard on him, because I viewed him running a lot of stress on that single 6-40 valve screw as dangerous.... He wouldn't listen, called me all kinds of names (and apparently still is, I could care less).... but he DID start recommending on his website that people change out that screw for 8-32.... at which point I shut up....
During all of that mess, I pointed out that if somebody overtightened the HiPac into the gun they could likely shear off the screw without any air pressure, as it would only take "X" force to do that (I can't now remember the number I gave him).... He promptly used that number as being the ft/lb. of torque applied to the HiPac, rather than the force, and started calling me names, so I gave up.... He didn't seem capable of understanding the difference between tightening torque and the force it develops.... and to be truthful I no longer cared.... I have better things to do....
If the seal diameter between the HiPac and the valve is 1/4" in diameter, at 3000 psi that is a force of 150 lbs.... To that you add the force from tightening in the HiPac against the screw.... I still think there is a good chance of the original 6-40 screw failing, and I'm glad he upgraded it to 8-32.... That should be enough to prevent it from failing and allowing the valve to move back and vent the HiPac.... I was wrong in stating that the valve might come flying out the back if that screw failed, and I owe him an apology for that.... I never realized there was so much clearance between the valve and the tube.... Full Stop....
Over the years since our first altercations, I have been silent about the HiPac, either Pro or Con.... I personally don't like it, wouldn't use one, but I don't try and discourage anyone from doing so, either.... I thought this was all water under the bridge, but apparently it isn't, and I regret that.... I'm glad that if nothing else, he changed that retaining screw and made the conversion safer....
For what it's worth, addressing the original subject of this post, I don't see a problem with milling the slot for the hammer pin out the back of the breech and tube so that the striker and bolt can be withdrawn out the back by simply removing the rear plug.... in fact, I've had tubes and breeches that were like that myself....
Bob
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Thanks Bob. That's all I wanted to know. To the toilet with all that other BS.
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Giving this a bit more thought, do NOT mill the slot for the bolt handle out the back of the breech.... If you do, and then fire the gun with the handle not down and locked, or if it comes up during firing, the only thing preventing it from flying out the back of the breech (and possibly hitting you) is the striker cocking pin and the upper breech screw.... The striker itself cannot get back past the rear tube block / spring seat, and it is secured with two (or after the suggested mod, 4) screws.... When thinking back about the gun I had with the slot milled, it was only the bottom slot, where the striker pin runs.... that was milled to the back of the tube and breech.... NOT the slot for the bolt handle....
You will still have to unscrew the bolt handle from the side of the bolt to remove the bolt from the gun.... as well as removing the rear plug.... Is the rear screw and striker pin strong enough to withstand the bolt flying back?.... Maybe, but by milling the slot for the bolt handle all the way to the back of the breech, that is all that is left....
Bob
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His instructions mention only the striker slot in the breech and tube. No mention of doing anything to the bolt slot so I think that's a given. Yeah, he says you'll have to remove all that stuff but to me those are like pre-disassembly parts. Maybe a specific "don't do that". My daddy would always say, "If something can be done wrong somebody can find a way to do it."
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Yep, that's why I mentioned it.... I realize the bolt handle slot wasn't mentioned but thought it prudent for me to bring it to your attention....
Bob
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Yeah, I've fired when my bolt wasn't completely closed a few times already. I think it's because i keep a pellet in the tray but not seated all the way into the barrel. Scary as all heck the first couple of times it happened. Now it's pretty much that if the crow doesn't fall when I shoot him the bolt must have been open.