GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Jking on July 27, 2015, 05:31:35 PM
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I just installed a Lane Lancet regulator set at 135bar in my S510 Carbine. The 173cc air tube limited me to about 22-23 shots at 3%ES at 28-30fpe. I did the initial install, cut my air pot down, drilled some additional holes in it and shortened my hammer spring maybe 3/8". I also polished the rail and ID of the hammer with some 1000 or 2000 grit sand paper, don't remember exactly which one now. I probably should have shot the gun before shortening the hammer spring, DUH!. It's shooting JSB 16gr at 875 average. I'm thinking now that the full spring might get my velocity up. Having lower velocities than I thought it should have I raised the regulator pressure to 155 to see if it made any big difference which it didn't so I set it back to 135. Anyway, now it's shooting a very flat string and I have something to work with. Once I get the velocity up a little with a full length spring I want to lighten the hammer for hopefully a few more shots. Here's how the string looks for now.
JK
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Capture%20AA%20S510%20Carbine%2015.9s%20072615_zpsbzb0kak5.png) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Capture%20AA%20S510%20Carbine%2015.9s%20072615_zpsbzb0kak5.png.html)
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Very nice! That is encouraging. Why did you choose the RL regulator over the HUMA?
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Airsupiorityproducts was out of them and the ones they had coming were hung up in customs. I'm a pretty impatient person. Not one of my strengths for sure😁 it's shooting really consistent now except for about three lower velocity shots. Might of been a bad pellet or something.
Jk
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Looks good Jimmy. Let us know how it does after you work it over some more. I gotta say 45 shots with such a small light weight rifle and small air cylinder to work with looks very good. I cant wait to get around and reg mine.
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In an attempt to get my velocity back up to around 880-900 on the 18.1's I ordered another full length factory spring after shortening the original when I installed the regulator. I received the spring yesterday and installed it expecting to see higher velocity but was shocked to see the same velocities and only half the shot count. I guess this is telling me there is way too much hammer energy so now I need to figure out the best route to get to my goal. I can always put the shorter spring back in and go back to a good shot string with 16gr pellets or go with the other mods to the hammer like trying to remove some of the weight. It looks to me like the after trying the full length spring and the velocity not increasing that would indicate the need for a higher regulator set point to get me somewhere in the ball park of my targeted velocity. Anyone have any thoughts as to my best options to try. I'd like to leave the regulator where it is if possible. Here is the string with the full length spring and shooting 16gr JSB's.
jk
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Capture%20AA%20S510%20Carbine%2015.9s%20080315%20Full%20Length%20Spring_zpszue5aac6.png) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Capture%20AA%20S510%20Carbine%2015.9s%20080315%20Full%20Length%20Spring_zpszue5aac6.png.html)
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If more hammer spring pre load doesnt increase the velocity you have to increase the reg set point and adjust the pre load to the new setting.
Here is a link to a thread that Bob posted that goes into detail for tuning a reg correctly and explains the different ways you can tune them.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=74919.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=74919.0)
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It's looking like a little more regulator pressure will be needed. I think I failed to mention that I had tried 150bar(1/2 turn on the regulator) and it didn't increase the velocity any but that was also with the shortened, weaker hammer spring so 150bar was probably too much for that spring. If I would have bumped it up to maybe 140 or so I might have seen a increase. Robert Lane says 130bar should yield 28-31fpe and 135, 31-35. But I do know Abslayer said he had to increase his to 150 to get the velocity he wanted. It'll just take a little time to figure it all out to get me where I want to be in the end. I am planning on reducing the weight on the hammer some today hopefully. Havent had a lot of time to play with it lately, too dang hot in the garage for one thing.lol
jimmy
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I got my velocities up to 892 average over 32 shots with 18gr JSB's or just a tad over 31fpe. My goal was 3 mags at 30fpe so I'm there. Wouldn't mind dropping that velocity down to around 875-880 and hopefully adding a few shots. I ended up raising my regulator today to 150 and shooting a full length spring and a slightly lightened hammer. I think maybe I can reduce the hammer weight and or spring a little and drop the velocity and add some shots. I did have three shots that registered low due to the regulator not doing its thing.
Jimmy
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Capture%20AA%20S510%20Carbine%20081315%2018gr%20150bar%20and%203300%20fill_zpsdxfy4fhc.png) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Capture%20AA%20S510%20Carbine%20081315%2018gr%20150bar%20and%203300%20fill_zpsdxfy4fhc.png.html)
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looks very nice, though I would have been thrilled with the first and longer string, only because I hate refilling when I am punching paper. I realize hunters don't need a bazillions shots (unless it is me shooting) so you have plenty
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Looks good. I have my s510 carbine set for 26 fpe. If I stick a reg in it I will keep it set there and that should give me a decent amount of shots for such a small rifle. Shooting around here is starting to drop off and hunting season is coming up so maybe I will get the reg and work on it during the down time. Thanks Jimmy for posting the results.
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Looks good. I have my s510 carbine set for 26 fpe. If I stick a reg in it I will keep it set there and that should give me a decent amount of shots for such a small rifle. Shooting around here is starting to drop off and hunting season is coming up so maybe I will get the reg and work on it during the down time. Thanks Jimmy for posting the results.
Thanks Leland, that first long string with the 16gr was 27.2fpe so you can see what's possible at 130bar. I really prefer the 18 grain over the 16 so I'll probably concentrate on those strings. The tin of 16gr that I've been tuning with were in terrible shape, really bad bent skirts. The 18's seem to be a lot more durable. But, if the 16's out shoot the 18's then I'll go with them. I hope you go with a HUMA so we can compare. The Lane seems to be working pretty good other than a low pressure every once in a while as indicated on my last string.
Jimmy
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I will get the Huma. I am inpatient also but deciding to do this project during the down time for shooting will take the edge of waiting for a Huma away if they are not in stock when I go to order.
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Here the latest update on my project. I ordered four sets of springs to replace the one I got from RL that had a lot bigger OD and ID. After a couple of swap outs and test fires for velocity I cut one coil of one. I have more details of these springs if anyone is interest. So now with my regulator at 150bar, yes that is correct 150bar. I shot a string last night with JSB 18's. I'm really pumped with the shot count and energy but the ES and SD is more than I like. I'm not sure what's going on. I'm thinking the hammer strike for some reason isn't consistent on every shot. I'll get three or four that are within 1or 2 fps from each other then I'll get some goofy ones. I have caught on a few occasions my guns regulated pressure being low after the previous shot. It looks like maybe somewhere in the 140 area. But I'm seeing the wild fluctuations when the pressure is reading normal as well. Here's the string so If anyone has any ideas please pass them on. I'm going to pull the hammer and spring and do a little polishing on those parts this evening.
jimmy
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Capture%20AA%20S510%20082015%2018gr%203300_zpshnwqmhne.png) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Capture%20AA%20S510%20082015%2018gr%203300_zpshnwqmhne.png.html)
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Ran another string with some el'cheapo 14.3's but this time I looked at my guns gauge and documented what it was showing before I shot the pellet and recorded the velocity. It turned out that it was very predictable velocity by judging what the regulator was doing. I thought I had spring and hammer issues but apparently it the regulator. Don't know if it will do any good but I'll send RL a note and see what he says. Go ahead and say it...HUMA? Attached is that string from tonight, looks very similar to the previous string.
jimmy
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Capture%20082115%20regulator%20test%2014.3_zpsjlabjnyf.png) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Capture%20082115%20regulator%20test%2014.3_zpsjlabjnyf.png.html)
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It seems like the velocity variations have worked themselves out. I shot a string of 16's a couple of days ago and only had one in the middle of the string. I guess it just needed a little more break in time. I expected the first shot to me off but it was normal and the second shot was low velocity. Overall I'm tickled with what it's doing now. Attached is the comparison of the unregulated gun and the end result. The unregulated was only getting about 22-23 shots at 3% ES and under.
jk
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Capture%20AA%20S510%20Carbine%2016gr%20Regulated%20VS%20Unregulated_zps39evmn3q.png) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Capture%20AA%20S510%20Carbine%2016gr%20Regulated%20VS%20Unregulated_zps39evmn3q.png.html)
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Nice. Better than your goal of 30 shots @ 30 fpe! Now it would be good to see a string with the 18.1's.
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Here's the 18gr. I have the regulator set at 150bar according to the marks on the regulator. According to the guns gauge which I realize can be and probably is off a little the regulator is set at a little less than 150 since most of my recorded before shot bar readings are 140-145. Going with that, anytime the regulator refills and seats to either something quite a bit lower like 120 or higher than the 150bar the velocity is lower (highlighted in orange). Both understandable results but variations either way. Definitely not worth worry about right now.
Jimmy
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Capture%20AA%20S510%200083015%2018gr_zpsnionshgl.png) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Capture%20AA%20S510%200083015%2018gr_zpsnionshgl.png.html)
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Hows the reg performing Jimmy? I just ordered my Huma for my S510 carbine so hopefully I can get it installed and start some testing next week after I get it. I will post my results and settings when I get it done.
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Thanks for asking Leland,
I haven't shot it through the chrony since the last posted string but everything seems to be ok. The gun is shooting great. Great groups at 50 if the wind isn't blowing and I do my part. I suspect the regulator is still not refilling the same 100% of the time because every now and then the groups will open up for an unknown reason. Don't think it me anyway. Then on the next group it's back tight again.
I received a Huma from Nick at Airsuperiority to try but haven't had a chance to install it yet. Hopefully it will eliminate the few fps variations and the annoying wheezing sound ;D Let me know what yours is set at when you get it and how the project goes. Looking forward to your results. Oh yea, don't forget if you need any springs let me know.
Jimmy
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Don't know if it will do any good but I'll send RL a note and see what he says.
Did you get a response back from RL? Would be good to know if it is a faulty regulator. Thanks for the info, I hope to get a S510 in the distant future.
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Don't know if it will do any good but I'll send RL a note and see what he says.
Did you get a response back from RL? Would be good to know if it is a faulty regulator. Thanks for the info, I hope to get a S510 in the distant future.
He said send it back for a refund which I may do after trying the HUMA.
jk
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That is good to know. What are your thoughts on the Altaros regulator. http://www.altaros.cz/en/air-arms/2-airarms-xtra-fac-all-models#/ (http://www.altaros.cz/en/air-arms/2-airarms-xtra-fac-all-models#/)
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I know that Matt Dubber put a RL reg in his S510 and the strings he posted looked similar to your string and to me was to jumpy. He was still working on it and trying different valve springs so it might get better. I am hoping the Huma reg I ordered will give better results. I know if I get a 30 fps ES with the Huma or any reg for that matter I am going to be really disappointed.
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That is good to know. What are your thoughts on the Altaros regulator. http://www.altaros.cz/en/air-arms/2-airarms-xtra-fac-all-models#/ (http://www.altaros.cz/en/air-arms/2-airarms-xtra-fac-all-models#/)
Robert, I personally don't know anything about them. I do believe that one O-ring on the end is the only seal between high and regulated pressure though.
jk
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I know that Matt Dubber put a RL reg in his S510 and the strings he posted looked similar to your string and to me was to jumpy. He was still working on it and trying different valve springs so it might get better. I am hoping the Huma reg I ordered will give better results. I know if I get a 30 fps ES with the Huma or any reg for that matter I am going to be really disappointed.
I think Matts string was his first with no modifications to the hammer or spring. Don't know if he's done anything else to it since then though. What surprised me on his gun was that he got 30fpe at 130bar, as the regulator came from RL. I know mine and Abslayers had to be turned up closer to 150bar to get that energy. Could be just the difference in tuning. Maybe the HUMA will be different.
Jimmy
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... the annoying wheezing sound ;D
Jimmy
Mr. King,
I have also recently installed a RL regulator in my S510. (.177 cal. full size rifle)
Would you please explain the "wheezing" that you mentioned.
Cheers,
Smoketown
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... the annoying wheezing sound ;D
Jimmy
Mr. King,
I have also recently installed a RL regulator in my S510. (.177 cal. full size rifle)
Would you please explain the "wheezing" that you mentioned.
Cheers,
Smoketown
You bet, the best I can anyway. The sound could also be described as short high pitched whistle or squeak. It happens most of the time at mid string or later. Normally is just as soon as i pull the trigger but sometimes it may take as long as a second or two after the shot. About the only thing that I would think could be making that sound is the regulator seat in the process of seating. I guess there is also a chance that it could be the guns valve not seating perfect every time. I'll find out soon enough when I get the HUMA installed. What kind of shot count are you getting out of the 177?
jk
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Today I installed a HUMA regulator from Nick at Airsupiority.com. It had been recommended before but I got in a hurry and installed what I could find in stock at the time which was the Lane Lancet regulator. As noted I had issues with the set point not returning to its proper place every time plus an annoying whistle/wheeze/squeak sound after some of the shots. I happy to report the shot string is extremely flat over 33 shots until it falls off the regulator. There was also no hint of a after shot noise. Hallalluya!! Attached is a comparison photo of the two regulators and my very first string. I didn't make any changes to the hammer/spring setting just dropped in the regulator and put it back together. Hopefully I can coax a few more shots out of it when time allows.
jimmy
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsrmlmpcdj.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsrmlmpcdj.jpg.html)
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Capture%20HUMA%20First%20String%2016gr%20220%20fill%20140bar%20set%20point_zpskutvdzsy.png) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Capture%20HUMA%20First%20String%2016gr%20220%20fill%20140bar%20set%20point_zpskutvdzsy.png.html)
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What a difference. Looks like you got an es of only 10 fps for 33 shots and I believe the RL reg was closer to 30 fps for an es correct? I bet with a little tweaking you will get a few more shots. I get my Huma on Tuesday and as promised I will add my string for comparison.
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Mr. King,
I installed the RL Regulator (set at 135 bar) with new valve spring in the reservoir with no other changes.
It is a .177 cal. S510 Extra FAC Super-lite full size rifle.
I had been getting around 30 declining shots in the ‘sweet spot’ firing from 150 to 110 bar according to the gauge on the rifle.
If the charts load, it looks like 50 for now though I’ve only put 3 strings across the chronograph.
The strings also appear to be smoothing out.
Probably won’t get a chance to shoot it more for about 3 weeks … Work!
String 1
9/6/2015
40 Shots
JSB Ext Hvy
10.34 g
4.52 dia
135 Bar
Regulated
HI-922.6
LO-872.0
SD-17.5
CV-1.93%
MAD-15.8
CV-1.76%
ES-50.6
AV-892.7
String 2
9/6/2015
40 Shots
JSB Ext Hvy
10.34 g
4.52 dia
135 Bar
Regulated
HI-889.5
LO-870.4
SD-4.5
CV-0.51%
MAD-3.6
CV-0.40%
ES-19.1
AV-879.4
String 3
9/6/2015
70 Shots
JSB Ext Hvy
10.34 g
4.52 dia
135 Bar
Regulated
HI-888.9
LO-792.7
SD-23.4
CV-2.69%
MAD-16.8
CV-1.93%
ES-96.2
AV-868.1
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Mr. King,
It appears that the Excel documents didn't make the trip ...
"Howdjadoit?"
TIA!
Cheers,
Smoketown - RCI
Resident Computer Idiot ...
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Mr. King,
It appears that the Excel documents didn't make the trip ...
"Howdjadoit?"
TIA!
Cheers,
Smoketown - RCI
Resident Computer Idiot ...
The PITA way😁. For some reason it's hard to copy and paste if not impossible a XL file to a post. I make a Snipit of it and the download the Snipit to Photobucket. From there you can attach it to a post. Like I said a PITA.
Jimmy
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Graphs Second Attempt ...
Fingers crossed ...
Cheers,
Smoketown
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Lets Try This Again ...
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510String1_1.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510String1_1.jpg.html)
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510String2.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510String2.jpg.html)
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510String3.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510String3.jpg.html)
Cheers,
Smoketown
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Jim, that last string looks a lot better than the first two. I'd say it's getting about 50 shots before falling off the regulator and with only a 200bar that isn't bad. I bet with a lightened hammer and spring the shot count will go up. The next time you shoot a string check the rifle's gun gauge before each shot and note the pressure the best you can. In your first string it looks for sure like the gun wasn't refilling to it set point. Another thing you can do is polish the tube that the hammer rides on with some 1000-1500 grit emery.
Jimmy
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Well I got my Huma a day early ;D It was suppose to be in tomorrow but I am not complaining ;) I am glad I had it shipped to work instead of home. I was able to get it put in today while I was working but I cant shoot any strings till tomorrow so we will see then how everything looks. It came set about 132 - 135 bar. I also found a light spring at the local hardware store to try after I see what the factory one is going to do. I also have some shims so I can get set on the knee of the curve. Im gonna wait until I try the factory spring and the lighter one if needed before I do anything to the hammer weight. But I have a lathe waiting in case it needs worked on.
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Good deal Leland, hope it turns out as well as mine. I searched all over my town and found a couple of springs but never one with the exact measurements as the ones I ordered. The four different sets I bought from Century spring are all music wire with almost the exact OD,ID and wire diameter but with different coil counts and overall lengths which gave each one different ratings. Any issues with is holding air? If you smooth the ID of the airtube really well you wont have any problems. Keep us posted. I haven't touched mine since I put it in, just shooting and enjoying it..
JK
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Hi Jimmy just a point on my FPS and target shooting
The difference with you odd pellet going off line could be and most likely pellet inconsistency is most likely difference in pellet weight.
I weigh all my pellets and put them in groups that match each other it does make a big difference at range.
Yours is starting to look real good.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v16/abslayer/Feb18--2015FPStune_zps0f88a29d.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v16/abslayer/Long%20Range%20shoots_zpssadhlyn3.jpeg)
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I left it over night and it looks lke no air loss. I shot a string or atleast I tried :o i got 13 shots before falling off the reg! At first I thought man I must have a leak so I filled it back up and got the same thing. So the 132 bar set point is way to low for the hammer energy I have. I didnt think it would be that bad but evidently its wasting a ton of air. It is shooting an average of 874 fps with 18 gr. JSB and its noisy compaired to normal so that tells me its pushing allot of air. The lighter spring I have is to light so im gonna reduce hammer weight then play with spring tension if needed.
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Hi Jimmy just a point on my FPS and target shooting
The difference with you odd pellet going off line could be and most likely pellet inconsistency is most likely difference in pellet weight.
I weigh all my pellets and put them in groups that match each other it does make a big difference at range.
Yours is starting to look real good.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v16/abslayer/Feb18--2015FPStune_zps0f88a29d.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v16/abslayer/Long%20Range%20shoots_zpssadhlyn3.jpeg)
Yea Mel, it could have been or maybe a bad skirt. I stopped checking the guns gauge between shots because it never failed to return to it set point. "dang" good regulator..Nice shooting by the way. Mine seems to be shooting really well. We've had wind for days but it looks to be grouping really well.
Jimmy
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I left it over night and it looks lke no air loss. I shot a string or atleast I tried :o i got 13 shots before falling off the reg! At first I thought man I must have a leak so I filled it back up and got the same thing. So the 132 bar set point is way to low for the hammer energy I have. I didnt think it would be that bad but evidently its wasting a ton of air. It is shooting an average of 874 fps with 18 gr. JSB and its noisy compaired to normal so that tells me its pushing allot of air. The lighter spring I have is to light so im gonna reduce hammer weight then play with spring tension if needed.
You might crank up the regulator a little and make it harder for the hammer to open the valve, maybe just give the valve a little sip of air. That seemed to be the ticket on my Lane, but I had also lightened my hammer. I'll gladly send you some springs if you want them. I'll never use them all anyway.
Jimmy
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Thanks for the offer Jimmy on the springs but I cut mine to see how it would go. My regulator says its set at 132 - 135 but when I fill my gauge says it is at 140 bar.
Original setup without regulator
Hammer 49.5 grams
Standard hammer spring
Fill to 200 bar
transfer port set on half
I got 23 shots but I always shot two mags for 20 shots
810 fps AVG with an ES of 25 fps for 20 shots and 28 fps for 23 shots.
So here is my current set up
Regulator set between 132 - 140 bar depending which source you believe.
Hammer cut down to 36 grams.
Hammer spring cut about 1 1/4 coils but I added a shim that took it back to the same as 1 coil being cut off.
I fill to 200 bar so 2900 psi
Transfer port fully open
Here is the shot string
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o291/legionaire1/S510%20string%20enlarged.png) (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/legionaire1/media/S510%20string%20enlarged.png.html)
I was hoping to gain more shots but I am not over filling mine either. Set where its at now I did gain about 4 shots total at a higher avg fps with almost half the ES it had unregulated. I gained 7 shots if you go off the 20 shot string I used before.
I dont know why the first shot was the lowest one but if you remove that one and the last shot the Es is 14 fps. I wonder if the reg is creeping when I refill and thats what caused the slow first shot. I will shoot it some more and see how it settles in. I still dont know if I want to keep it set here or drop it closer to the 810 fps I was shooting at with out the reg. After I did the second cut on the hammer spring I was getting 795 fps for an average and got well over 40 shots with an ES of about 20 or 24 fps. The problem was the reg was set to high for the hammer pre load and when it fell of the reg and the pressure dropped a little I got a sharp climb in the velocity resulting in the longer shots but also the larger ES. So if I go lower I will try to just slowly thin my shim until I hit an average of 820 - 825 fps. I think that will give me a very small climb when it drops off the reg and keep my ES the same as it is now but a longer string.
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Just shot a string this evening to confirm that the Huma regulator is not changing any. I'm happy to report this string is basically identical to the first string I shot. I'm calling it 35 shots on the regulator with an ES, easily under 1%. 17 of the 35 were .5% and under ;). I had a total of 40 shots with a 220bar fill. It's a leaver "B".
jimmy
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Miscilanious%20Photos/Air%20Arms%20S510%20Carbine/Capture%20092615%20String_zpsravozmgz.png) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Miscilanious%20Photos/Air%20Arms%20S510%20Carbine/Capture%20092615%20String_zpsravozmgz.png.html)
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Looks good Jimmy.
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With permission from Mr. King … (Yes, I asked.) ;)
S510 Recap
Air Arms .177 cal. S510 Extra FAC Super-lite full size rifle.
I had been getting around 30 declining shots in the ‘sweet spot’ firing from 150 to 110 bar according to the gauge on the rifle.
Robert Lane Lancet Regulator (set at 135 bar) with new (RL) valve spring in the reservoir with no other changes.
The stock striker/hammer provided ~ 50 shots from a 200 bar fill.
With a 34 gram lightened striker I’m averaging 70 good shots … When I don’t get wonky chronograph readings.
(Deleted 5 shots from String 5 - 2 @ 3XX and 3 @ 57XX fps! Yes ... 5000+ fps! --- WONKY !!!)
The next step is to clean the barrel and re-shoot a string or two paying close attention to the rifles pressure gauge.
I'm also tempted to see how much more I can lighten the striker before I have to ADD weight. ::)
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String4.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String4.jpg.html)
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String5.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String5.jpg.html)
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String6.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String6.jpg.html)
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String7.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String7.jpg.html)
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Nice Jim, btw, my all time favorite name ;), Someone PM'd me a short while back and was asking how many shots a 177 would get and my best guess was 70-75. I was wondering if pellet weight might have something to do with the sensitivity of varying velocities. So taking some weight off your hammer really helped. Did you just remove the otter edge of the hammer to get down to 34 grams or did you remove some other material?
JK
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~~ So taking some weight off your hammer really helped. Did you just remove the outer edge of the hammer to get down to 34 grams or did you remove some other material?
JK
Jimmy,
I'm glad you asked! (Just the outer edge.)
OK, so off the deep end I go …
I’m sure that we have all seen the hammer photos that have been posted. (I shamelessly copied and posted them below ...)
I’m also pretty sure that most of us have turned the ‘fat end’ of our hammers to the ‘impact ring’ diameter at the face of the hammer to reduce the weight.
(Mine currently weighs in at 34 grams or 31% less than stock.)
It appears that after turning our hammers we are then clipping coils.
That tells me that we’re still over weight, have slow lock times and quite possibly, a bit of hammer bounce. (Geritol commercial starts in 3, 2, 1 …)
The question then becomes how light is too light or, should it be “Lite”?
Scott, Bob?
With the small end to the left, looking at the STOCK hammer and spring profiles, from my scribbled notes I have the following:
1.) The striker spring OD at .590 dia. ***
2.) The spring guide at .465” dia.
3.) The ‘fat end’ at .825” dia. ***
4.) The ‘impact ring’ on the face of the hammer .610” dia.
(My ‘as turned’ diameter.)
Looking at the hammer ‘as turned’ the resultant large .825” dia. *** ring/doughnut in the middle has only two functions.
1.) The top where the allen screw goes so you can cock the hammer.
2.) The bottom that engages the top sear to hold it in the cocked position.
Now, think of a Tylenol Caplet or any other capsule shaped item.
To easily remove even more weight we can ‘slab-side’ our hammers. (Ribbonstone's link below the photos.)
I would not hesitate to go as far as to match the ‘striker spring OD’ for the new width of the hammer.
Nothing too technical here, a grinder, belt sander or if you have access to one, a mill would do it. (The timid can do it a little bit at a time.)
Another option for those with access to a lathe, would be to measure back approximately .200” from the hammer face and reduce the ‘as turned’ end to the diameter of the ‘spring OD’ as far back as to the face of the ‘doughnut’.
(A drill press and a 4” angle grinder comes to mind for us “Red Green” types.) ;D
The advantage of the above turning method would be if the hammer happened to be too light, one could wrap and soft solder a couple of turns of heavy 16 - 10 gauge copper wire in the groove.
For the greatest weight reduction the most adventurous can do both!
In the next few weeks as work allows, I’ll be:
a) Shooting my ‘as turned’ 34 gram hammer tune over the screens. (Done!)
b) Turning a groove .200” back from the hammer face and shooting it.
c) Slab-siding the hammer and shooting some more!
d) Perhaps, soldering some copper wire to the hammer. ::)
e) Doing better documentation of the above steps …. ;)
Cheers,
Smoketown
In the photos, imagine the cam shaped area being the full diameter as the one on the left - That's the "doughnut"/ring I'm talking about.
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh184/SL_Chopper/D32DB332-F757-47D4-8B9E-E0D1EF353AAB.jpg) (http://s256.photobucket.com/user/SL_Chopper/media/D32DB332-F757-47D4-8B9E-E0D1EF353AAB.jpg.html)
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh184/SL_Chopper/8420C603-D0AB-4A55-8716-2098AE7AD7FF.jpg) (http://s256.photobucket.com/user/SL_Chopper/media/8420C603-D0AB-4A55-8716-2098AE7AD7FF.jpg.html)
Ribbonstone has a great photo of a "slab sided hammer" posted here - http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=97673.msg913350#msg913350 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=97673.msg913350#msg913350)
*** Added Correct Dimensions ... .825 and .590 inches.
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I am also curiose to hear what the experts would say about how light is to light for the hammer in this particular rifle. I got my hammer weight down to 36g and it was shooting the same velocity when using the stock hammer. I cut 1 coil off to get the velocity to start to drop.
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I am also curiose to hear what the experts would say about how light is to light for the hammer in this particular rifle. I got my hammer weight down to 36g and it was shooting the same velocity when using the stock hammer. I cut 1 coil off to get the velocity to start to drop.
Trimmed up hammer show above is honestly @ light as you can get them down too. For most they work great !!
Due to design limits see "How low will it go" is not really possible.
Based on my extensive LW hammer work with regulated marauders which operate give or take very similar pressure, there optimum weight was 26-28 grams .. so 1t 34 your almost there leaving me feel close enough.
My personal AA s410 in .22 with reg has a LW hammer as above & works quite well.
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Thanks Scott for the extra info. I believe I can get my hammer down to 34g or maybe even 32g. I still have just a little I can remove from the diameter to match the diameter where the valve is contacted. I also never touched the other side of the large ring where there is a little material that can be trimmed off. I will take pics when I pull the hammer again to trim a little more and polish the hammer guide. I feel like I am very close so I might just polish the guide first to see how it does before removing more material.
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You guys are killin me. I've got a "lever B" in my book but ya'll got to keep on tempting me to tweak (not twerk) a little more. My current hammer weighs 40.12 grams so now I'm thinking "what if" I take more weight off.;D. Now, after I reduce the hammer a little more I'll more than likely loose a little velocity but gain some shots, probably a good chance anyway I'm thinking. I've got more of the same springs that I trimmed a coil off of to get to where I'm at now, again the "lever B" state. So maybe if I lose too much velocity I can gain some of it back with a full spring and still have an increase in shot count. Sounds good anyway..
jk
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You guys are killin me. I've got a "lever B" in my book but ya'll got to keep on tempting me to tweak (not twerk) a little more. My current hammer weighs 40.12 grams so now I'm thinking "what if" I take more weight off.;D. Now, after I reduce the hammer a little more I'll more than likely loose a little velocity but gain some shots, probably a good chance anyway I'm thinking. I've got more of the same springs that I trimmed a coil off of to get to where I'm at now, again the "lever B" state. So maybe if I lose too much velocity I can gain some of it back with a full spring and still have an increase in shot count. Sounds good anyway..
jk
Careful Jim LMBO
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Jimmy you have a very good string and I personally would not touch it if it was mine. I think I am getting about the best shot count I can expect from my carbine using a standard fill and getting 30 shots so I only want to remove the two shots that ruined my single digit ES. So hopefully polishing the hammer guide will do that. If that gives me the completely flat string I might shave that last little bit off the hammer but I will decide after polishing and seeing how it performs.
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I think your right Leland, It's shooting dang good too. Going from a 22-23 shots at 3% ES to 35 shots under 1% and throw in another 5 good shots on the end is a tremendous improvement. I walked by my gun cabinet with the AA in it last night and thought to my myself.. *(&^ no I ain't jacking with it anymore.
Jimmy ;D ;D
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Well I found an issue with my regulator but its more my fault :-[ After I installed the reg I let it sit over night to check for leaks and it looked good but I made a mistake. I didnt think about the gauge showing just the reg set point and I filled it to 200 bar. So with a slow leak it takes longer than one day to drop below the set point. Well last week after shooting one mag from a full fill my S510 sat for a week while I worked on my TX200 and on last Friday when I looked at my S510 gauge it was at 130 bar >:( So it has a very slow leak. Lesson learned is only fill to the set point or a little less to do a leak test ;)
I had the gauge off during the install so there are 3 possible leak points #1 is the gauge o-rings. #2 is the o-ring that seals the tube to the valve body and #3 is the regulator o-rings. My bet is that its the reg o-rings but I need to be certain. Does any one know the size of the Huma reg o-rings? Or the size of the threads on the back of the reg for pulling it out?
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Well I found an issue with my regulator but its more my fault :-[ After I installed the reg I let it sit over night to check for leaks and it looked good but I made a mistake. I didnt think about the gauge showing just the reg set point and I filled it to 200 bar. So with a slow leak it takes longer than one day to drop below the set point. Well last week after shooting one mag from a full fill my S510 sat for a week while I worked on my TX200 and on last Friday when I looked at my S510 gauge it was at 130 bar >:( So it has a very slow leak. Lesson learned is only fill to the set point or a little less to do a leak test ;)
I had the gauge off during the install so there are 3 possible leak points #1 is the gauge o-rings. #2 is the o-ring that seals the tube to the valve body and #3 is the regulator o-rings. My bet is that its the reg o-rings but I need to be certain. Does any one know the size of the Huma reg o-rings? Or the size of the threads on the back of the reg for pulling it out?
Hey Leland, so your gauge was showing higher before the wait time, 140 or 150? I guess you could check your weep hole on the air tube with some really soapy water and at least know if its one of the rugulators O-rings. If not there maybe the valve is leaking by a little. I had a leak on the fill fitting when I first got my gun but it was obvious as the O-ring gave up and blew out.
You can rule out the valve leaking by soaping the TP hole.
As far as the Oring size, sorry I'm not sure but I bet Scott will chime in with the right answer on that and the thread size on the regulator. I think I used one of the breech screws, I'm thinking it was the one that is bigger than the other three.
jimmy
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My gauge only shows the reg set point but because I filled to 200 bar the gauge will only drop from a leak when you get below the set point. So the leak was hidden until the rifle set long enough to leak down to the set point.
Good news is that I found the leak and it is the regulator o-ring that seals off the vent hole. Should be an easy enough fix once I know I have the proper o-rings to replace them. I am going to double check my vent hole for a bur and the tube threads so it doesnt happen again when I reinstall the reg.
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Some times air tubes I.D. has marks from being "Drawn" and requires honing to smooth the surface where Regs o-rings contact tube :-[
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I think Matt is his name, anyhow here is a video of him istalling a Lane reg. in his S510, he discusses the part that Motorhead mentioned about smoothing the inside of the airtube. Would think it would be the same for the Huma.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFrQI6oDYZg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFrQI6oDYZg)
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Yep I looked inside the tube and checked it and it all seemed really smooth but obviously something was there to nick the o-ring. I wont take the short cut this time and hone it out real good and make sure I dont have to mess with it again lol.
So now I have to figure out if I am going to change anything while its apart. I could put in a stronger valve spring but I dont know if I have one that will be good enough without adding to much tension. I dont want to put one in to find out it has to much tension and I dont know how much room you have in that setting before it causes issues.
I was also thinking about adjusting the set point slightly. According to the reg it should be no more than 135 bar and looks to be closer to 132 bar based on the scale that Huma put on the reg. But when I shoot till it drops off the reg my tanks gauge moves up until 140 bar and stops so I figured its actually set at 140 bar but maybe thats not a real accurate way to see the true set point.
If it is set to 140 bar I dont need to touch it but if it is actually 132 - 135 bar I would bump it to about 140 - 145 bar. Jimmy do you recall where your reg was set when you got it? Was it set like mine and you adjusted it to 140 bar on the scale?
Update: Here is a pic of my reg setting
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o291/legionaire1/airguns/27AED91F-591A-4465-9C35-6381DC3BF807.jpg) (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/legionaire1/media/airguns/27AED91F-591A-4465-9C35-6381DC3BF807.jpg.html)
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Leland, I knew I should of paid more attention. I "think" it was set at 140bar and I just dropped it in, according to my notes on one of my post anyway. I don't remember adjusting it any. I sent a note to Eric about that and the O-ring sizes and he hasn't responded yet. If I'm seeing the adjustment mark on your regulator in the photo I really think mine was past the 137bar legend. Sorry I couldn't provide a more positive reply.
Jimmy
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I measured my reg o-rings and ordered up a batch to replace them. I then messaged Nick at air- superiority to see what he had to say about the o-ring size and material they use. It was 11 pm mountain time when I sent the e-mail and within 15 minutes he sent a reply stating to give him my shipping address and he would send out some spare o-rings! I really didnt expect a reply until the next day. Thats what I call service and going the extra mile when you contact customers at that time of night and send out replacements no questions asked.
So far I polished my hammer guide and I will work on the air tube tomorrow to get it cleaned up and polished. I am still fighting with what I should do about the reg setting.
No problem Jimmy if you dont remember. Based on my reg setting and their scale it says the reg is set on the line in between 124 bar and 137 bar. Its really got me bugged about what I should do with the setting. The velocity I am getting is fine but a little lower or higher wouldnt hurt as long as I gained shots dropping slightly or retained the shot count if it was slightly higher like 137 bar or 140 bar on the scale. I am going to see if I have a spring thats stiffer that will work for the valve. I think that would be a help even if I dont change the reg setting. I might still shave a little more weight off my hammer to.
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FWIW ... in my AA 410 .22 cal w/ HuMa reg it is set @ 140/142 bar
Rifle wide open on Velocity adjuster shoots 18.1 @ 940 fps making 35 ft lbs power.
With the lightened hammer dwell is low as is noise from muzzle.
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Scott do you have the factory valve spring? How many shots and what fill do you use?
I will take a hard look at my string but I think I will end up setting my set point to 140 bar and get back to about 865 fps.
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Scott do you have the factory valve spring? How many shots and what fill do you use?
I will take a hard look at my string but I think I will end up setting my set point to 140 bar and get back to about 865 fps.
Yes, factory springs in valve & hammer.
Poppet stem reduced within throat & thimble retaining poppet spring has 4 - 3/16" holes cross drilled in it.
Plenum spacer used was @ 1/2" longer than one provided with reg.
3K fill and get give or take @ 25-27 full power shots. ( This a standard Carbine air tube )
Early post here: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=86133.msg827867#msg827867 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=86133.msg827867#msg827867)
Later on upped the set point and lightened hammer gaining more shots while only loosing @ 20 fps with same settings.
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Scott do you have the factory valve spring? How many shots and what fill do you use?
I will take a hard look at my string but I think I will end up setting my set point to 140 bar and get back to about 865 fps.
Yes, factory springs in valve & hammer.
Poppet stem reduced within throat & thimble retaining poppet spring has 4 - 3/16" holes cross drilled in it.
Plenum spacer used was @ 1/2" longer than one provided with reg.
3K fill and get give or take @ 25-27 full power shots. ( This a standard Carbine air tube )
Early post here: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=86133.msg827867#msg827867 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=86133.msg827867#msg827867)
Later on upped the set point and lightened hammer gaining more shots while only loosing @ 20 fps with same settings.
Wow Scott, your gun is making a lot more fpe than mine and I'm not sure why. I'm running at least 140bar on mine, I had to add a 3/8 spacer on top of the supplied one to get my vent hole to align where the Lane was setting. I modified the intake spring retainer as you did also. Probably just a combination of your longer barrel, longer hammer spring, factory valve spring and modified valve stem. I'm happy where I'm at now and not planning on changing anything but it has made me wonder.
What do you think makes the biggest difference in our guns, other than the obvious (the tuner). ;D
jimmy
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Scott do you have the factory valve spring? How many shots and what fill do you use?
I will take a hard look at my string but I think I will end up setting my set point to 140 bar and get back to about 865 fps.
Yes, factory springs in valve & hammer.
Poppet stem reduced within throat & thimble retaining poppet spring has 4 - 3/16" holes cross drilled in it.
Plenum spacer used was @ 1/2" longer than one provided with reg.
3K fill and get give or take @ 25-27 full power shots. ( This a standard Carbine air tube )
Early post here: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=86133.msg827867#msg827867 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=86133.msg827867#msg827867)
Later on upped the set point and lightened hammer gaining more shots while only loosing @ 20 fps with same settings.
Wow Scott, your gun is making a lot more fpe than mine and I'm not sure why. I'm running at least 140bar on mine, I had to add a 3/8 spacer on top of the supplied one to get my vent hole to align where the Lane was setting. I modified the intake spring retainer as you did also. Probably just a combination of your longer barrel, longer hammer spring, factory valve spring and modified valve stem. I'm happy where I'm at now and not planning on changing anything but it has made me wonder.
What do you think makes the biggest difference in our guns, other than the obvious (the tuner). ;D
jimmy
May very well be the barrel ... The OEM carbine barrel inside shroud was pretty short @ 14-15" IIRC ???
At 21"now it certainly accounts for some of it.
The Holes in Poppet Spring retention cap & a turned diameter poppet stem most of the balance most likely.
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I got my S510 back together last night and filled it to 50 bar and let it set over night. This morning it was still on 50 bar so the leak is now fixed ;D SO I took the S510 to work with me so I could tune it and get it finished up so I could go back to killin pests ;) I decided to set the reg to 140 bar based on the scale to see if it would improve the overall string. I think it helped and I ended up with a slightly longer string and more consistent ES with the exception of two shots. I dont know if it was caused by the pellets or if it was something else. I had to increase my spring pre load but that wasnt a big deal. My first reg tune had it shooting at 836 fps average for 27 shots. The new tune has it shooting at 847 fps avg for 30 shots. If you remove the two low shots the ES would be 14 fps now if I could find out whats causing the two low shots.
Here is the string
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o291/legionaire1/Screenshot%207.png) (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/legionaire1/media/Screenshot%207.png.html)
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I got my S510 back together last night and filled it to 50 bar and let it set over night. This morning it was still on 50 bar so the leak is now fixed ;D SO I took the S510 to work with me so I could tune it and get it finished up so I could go back to killin pests ;) I decided to set the reg to 140 bar based on the scale to see if it would improve the overall string. I think it helped and I ended up with a slightly longer string and more consistent ES with the exception of two shots. I dont know if it was caused by the pellets or if it was something else. I had to increase my spring pre load but that wasnt a big deal. My first reg tune had it shooting at 836 fps average for 27 shots. The new tune has it shooting at 847 fps avg for 30 shots. If you remove the two low shots the ES would be 14 fps now if I could find out whats causing the two low shots.
Here is the string
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o291/legionaire1/Screenshot%207.png) (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/legionaire1/media/Screenshot%207.png.html)
Hey Leland, you might just need to shoot it more. You might also observe the guns gauge before each shot and see if its refilling to the same point. That RL that I had wasn't all the time. It was definitely noticeable on the gauge and was reflected with lower velocities. Next time you pull the regulator try bumping it up to 145. You might not have found that good balance yet of preload to regulator pressure. What you have now is looking good though especially with 18's and a 200bar fill.
I did a little experimenting yesterday. I put a full length version of the spring I'm using now. It gave me only 26 shots at 925 with the 16gr which is 30.2 fpe and 27 shots with the 18gr at 883 for 31.2fpe. Not liking the loss of 10 shots I put the shortened spring back in. Just for grins I did try a 250bar fill once with the shortened spring and got a 50 shot string with about five I'd say off the regulator. With the 16gr at about 905 average. I guess if I want to try the full spring again a lighter hammer would be needed.
jimmy
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I put a Lane reg set at 120BAR in my S500 carbine. It does 52 shots at 25fpe with 18gr JSB with very little deviation. Much quieter than stock too.
The thing I noticed with these guns is that they have WAY too much hammer strike especially after dropping in a reg. Lighten your hammer and reduce your hammer spring tension and see where that goes. I lightened my hammer (in a lathe) until there was nothing else I could remove, and power NEVER dropped a bit until I clipped the spring. So lightening the hammer alone shouldn't drop your power or have any negative effect at all that I can see. The benefits wold be quicker lock time and reduced hammer bounce.
Also I feel like the barrel isn't long enough on these carbines for an efficient high power string. They will shoot a consistent high power string, even in stock form, but they just never seem efficient at high power, even with the reg. Just not enough barrel.
But for the power level you seem to be shooting for, your string seems pretty good to me.
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Jimmy you could be correct on getting a few more shots thru it. The one thing I noticed is that both low shots are after it sat for a few minutes. The first shot was after filling and I had to set up my chrono and get the clip loaded. The second low shot was after shooting ten then filling the mag so it sat for maybe a minute while I loaded the mag and talked with my buddy who was watching. If that trend continues then there is something in the reg causing I would think.
Limbshaker I have my hammer cut down to 36 grams from 49 grams. I also clipped a 1 1/2 coils off but at 1 1/2 shorter my pre load was to light and I got a large climb after falling off the reg and dropping pressure. So I shimmed it back up so that I dont get a 20 fps climb or more after dropping off the reg. I am in the window I was after for power. With out a reg I had 18 gr. JSB set at 810 fps. I tried the reg set as is when received and I got 836 fps after turning my hammer down but I only got 25 or 26 shots with 15 fps ES or less. Now with the reg set at 140 - 142 bar I am getting 30 shots @ 847 fps avg and a lower ES. So it is very close and one of those situations where ask.... do you pull it apart to try and squeeze a little more? If anything I will play with hammer springs and I could probably cut off another couple grams of hammer weight but I dont know if that will have any real impact.
Matt Dubber was filling his S510 to 250 bar and stated the S510 air cylinder is designed to be safe using those higher fills but the hammer energy and valve limited the fill to 200 bar without a reg. So after installing the reg he says its safe to fill to 250 and of course the hammer energy and valve are sufficient to open correctly because its not seeing the higher pressure. Matt says he got the info for the S510 being safe to fill up to 250 bar from a very reliable source ??? He doesnt mention this source or say they are connected to Air Arms but it would be very good info to know and if it is indeed true and Air Arms has done the testing to show it to be safe it would be a huge improvement for S510 with a reg installed.
I want to here some more opinions on Matts statements from people like Bob and Scott or anyone else with enough experience to give an educated answer.
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I put a Lane reg set at 120BAR in my S500 carbine. It does 52 shots at 25fpe with 18gr JSB with very little deviation. Much quieter than stock too.
The thing I noticed with these guns is that they have WAY too much hammer strike especially after dropping in a reg. Lighten your hammer and reduce your hammer spring tension and see where that goes. I lightened my hammer (in a lathe) until there was nothing else I could remove, and power NEVER dropped a bit until I clipped the spring. So lightening the hammer alone shouldn't drop your power or have any negative effect at all that I can see. The benefits wold be quicker lock time and reduced hammer bounce.
Also I feel like the barrel isn't long enough on these carbines for an efficient high power string. They will shoot a consistent high power string, even in stock form, but they just never seem efficient at high power, even with the reg. Just not enough barrel.
But for the power level you seem to be shooting for, your string seems pretty good to me.
Limbshaker, did you ever try for a 28-30fpe setting? Was wondering if you did what you had to set your regulator at. Did you gain shot count when you lightened your hammer weight and not lose any fpe or did it take shortening the hammer spring as well to see any significant change?
jimmy
jk
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Jimmy my reg was originally set at 132 bar according to the scale and with everything stock I got 876 fps average with 18 gr. and 13 shots. When I lightened my hammer and left the hammer spring original length I got 863 fps and 20 shots. So in my case I almost doubled the shot count and lost less than 15 fps. But when I cut the spring it jumped another 8 shots and 30 fps less.
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I got my S510 back together last night and filled it to 50 bar and let it set over night. This morning it was still on 50 bar so the leak is now fixed ;D SO I took the S510 to work with me so I could tune it and get it finished up so I could go back to killin pests ;) I decided to set the reg to 140 bar based on the scale to see if it would improve the overall string. I think it helped and I ended up with a slightly longer string and more consistent ES with the exception of two shots. I dont know if it was caused by the pellets or if it was something else. I had to increase my spring pre load but that wasnt a big deal. My first reg tune had it shooting at 836 fps average for 27 shots. The new tune has it shooting at 847 fps avg for 30 shots. If you remove the two low shots the ES would be 14 fps now if I could find out whats causing the two low shots.
Here is the string
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o291/legionaire1/Screenshot%207.png) (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/legionaire1/media/Screenshot%207.png.html)
That is some great strings you got there and 30+ shots at that FPS average is outstanding. As for the 2 low shots I would expect the first shot to be off a little sometimes and the second shot that is a little lower could be the chronograph or anything. If your that worried about those 2 lower shots which are not really that low you better be careful. Those 2 shots may not mean anything is wrong, let it be and shoot it. Just think what it was without the regulator. Don't mess with a good thing. It will level off even more once it gets settled in!
You have done a great job at getting where you want now lets go shooting ;D
Happy shooting
William
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Thank you William. I agree I need to just shoot it now and enjoy how much the string and shot count is improved over the stock non reg setup. I wonder if Air Arms will ever consider putting a reg in as standard. I just love how small and light the S510 carbine is to and its a perfect woods and walking hunter.
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Thank you William. I agree I need to just shoot it now and enjoy how much the string and shot count is improved over the stock non reg setup. I wonder if Air Arms will ever consider putting a reg in as standard. I just love how small and light the S510 carbine is to and its a perfect woods and walking hunter.
You make me so jealous I think I am going to be sick lol
It is a nice setup, I love the lightweight AG's and AA makes a good one thats for sure, as well with your regulated tune its a dream gun no matter how you look at it.
I have a Disco that is a dream gun, but with all the mods and added equipment it weighs a ton and I have $1200.00 in it, if I just knew then what I know now I would have just purchased a AA or a Daystate Huntsman XL in .22. I guess if I took off the stupid 10 pound scope I would be happy with the weight. I may just do that, I think I will buy another Barska 3-9 x 32mm Sniper or another Bug Buster and that will make it 2 lbs lighter lol
Enjoy your S510 it is a sweet little gun and for the price one of the best.
William
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Matt Dubber was filling his S510 to 250 bar and stated the S510 air cylinder is designed to be safe using those higher fills but the hammer energy and valve limited the fill to 200 bar without a reg. So after installing the reg he says its safe to fill to 250 and of course the hammer energy and valve are sufficient to open correctly because its not seeing the higher pressure. Matt says he got the info for the S510 being safe to fill up to 250 bar from a very reliable source ??? He doesnt mention this source or say they are connected to Air Arms but it would be very good info to know and if it is indeed true and Air Arms has done the testing to show it to be safe it would be a huge improvement for S510 with a reg installed.
I want to here some more opinions on Matts statements from people like Bob and Scott or anyone else with enough experience to give an educated answer.
I ain't eggzakly edjikated but ...
From the Air Arms website - "Airgun Expert and Air Arms Ambassador Matt Dubber tells us ..." http://www.air-arms.co.uk (http://www.air-arms.co.uk)
Being an "Air Arms Ambassador", I'm thinking that Matt wouldn't be silly enough to recommend something unsafe.
(I wonder if Air Arms views and approves Matt's videos before they are posted to Youtube?)
I'm also reasonably certain from a liability standpoint, Air Arms would not openly suggest going above what is etched on the air cylinders.
He is filling to 25% above maximum recommended fill pressure. There are apps on the net that will allow you to do the calcs.
To avoid a catastrophic failure, Air Arms air cylinders have a reduced area at the o-ring that will flare/expand to let air out.
Info - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aqzO5_vWdw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aqzO5_vWdw) - Values at 'blow-out'.
Does he get 25% more shots with the higher fill or, is that another one of those diminishing returns in the PCP world?
Cheers,
Smoketown
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Jim I was kinda thinking the same thing. I know that his videos usually go straight to the Air Arms you tube channel as well but I didnt check to see if this one was in there but if it is I would think they have some kind of look over before allowing it to be seen on their site.
If I remember correctly he got 50 or 60 shots. He is also using a full size rifle not the carbine so I dont know how many shots yo get working in the standard window. I dont think you will gain 25% but you are also able to get higher power levels with better shot count so that would be the only real reason to do it if it was safe to do so.
I am happy with my 3 mags at a whisker under 30 fpe. My question was from an info and curiosity stand point.
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Leland,
The second link in my post is a Robert Lane video.
He states the end of the air tube flared, blew the o-ring and released pressure as it is designed to do at 4800 psi / 330 bar.
He goes on to say that the main part of the tube has a burst pressure of 20,000 psi / 1378.95 bar.
[I love the internet ... Gone are the "good old days" of having to find an engineering student and getting his instructor to 'do the math'.] ;)
I too am happy with the results that I got ... 3 mags, 5 mags and now 7 mags at a usable level.
But, there is still a lot of meat to trim off of the striker! And, I haven't even started to mess with the regulator settings ... ::)
Time to shoot!
Cheers,
Smoketown
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Well, I couldn't stand it. I decided to lighten my hammer a little more in the hopes that I could gain some shot count without losing a lot of velocity. It's down to 33.9grams from the previous 38.90 weight. It originally was 49.6 grams. Here is what it looks like now.
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Miscilanious%20Photos/Air%20Arms%20S510%20Carbine/image_zpsmdzfj9y7.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Miscilanious%20Photos/Air%20Arms%20S510%20Carbine/image_zpsmdzfj9y7.jpg.html)
This is the resulting string is with the shortened spring that was in the gun. I gained about 8 or 9 shots but my velocity did drop from 905 to 880 with the 16gr JSB's but that's ok because it shoots that pellet well at that speed anyway. Notice that toward the end of the string it does have a little up kick as it falls of the regulated pressure.
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Miscilanious%20Photos/Air%20Arms%20S510%20Carbine/Capture%20101215%20short%20spring%2033.9%20gram%20hammer_zps1carzsju.png) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Miscilanious%20Photos/Air%20Arms%20S510%20Carbine/Capture%20101215%20short%20spring%2033.9%20gram%20hammer_zps1carzsju.png.html)
So now I thought lets try a full length spring and get the velocity up a tad and still retain a few extra shots. Here's what that turned out like. It looks like the regulator wasn't working but it was as I checked the gauge a few times while I shot the string. I like the first string and it shoots great there but I'm hoping to figure out why the string is falling from start to end. Apparently the full length spring is too much with this set up. But what has me bumfuzzled is that I shot the same full length spring with the slightly heavier hammer and I got a flat string. Hoping someone can explain how it does this.
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Miscilanious%20Photos/Air%20Arms%20S510%20Carbine/Capture%20101215%20full%20red%20spring%2033.9%20gram%20hammer_zpscfjgsv1q.png) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Miscilanious%20Photos/Air%20Arms%20S510%20Carbine/Capture%20101215%20full%20red%20spring%2033.9%20gram%20hammer_zpscfjgsv1q.png.html)
This is that previous full length string with the heavier hammer.
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Mobile%20Uploads/Capture%20100915%20full%20length%20red%20spring%2016%20gr_zpspxrpnbqd.png) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Capture%20100915%20full%20length%20red%20spring%2016%20gr_zpspxrpnbqd.png.html)
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The slight velocity jump in the first string after falling off the reg is due to the hammer energy being just a tad to light to fully open the valve creating a slight valve lock. When it drops off the reg and down to the point the valve gets opened fully you get the slight increase and then resulting fall from the pressure drop. So basically the way it is tuned in that string you have the very tail end of a bell curve and thats ok and what I go for if it keeps the velocity inside the ES I am after. If you get it correct you get more shots without hurting the ES. I cant explain the other string maybe Scott or Bob will have an answer.
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It doesn't take much of a change in spring length to alter the performance. Here's a couple of photos of the ones I've used.
Jimmy
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Miscilanious%20Photos/Air%20Arms%20S510%20Carbine/image_zpsajibw9wp.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Miscilanious%20Photos/Air%20Arms%20S510%20Carbine/image_zpsajibw9wp.jpg.html)
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Miscilanious%20Photos/Air%20Arms%20S510%20Carbine/image_zpsardwobyr.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Miscilanious%20Photos/Air%20Arms%20S510%20Carbine/image_zpsardwobyr.jpg.html)
My complete set, four of each
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Miscilanious%20Photos/Air%20Arms%20S510%20Carbine/image_zpsjvqc3i0u.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Miscilanious%20Photos/Air%20Arms%20S510%20Carbine/image_zpsjvqc3i0u.jpg.html)
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The slight velocity jump in the first string after falling off the reg is due to the hammer energy being just a tad to light to fully open the valve creating a slight valve lock. When it drops off the reg and down to the point the valve gets opened fully you get the slight increase and then resulting fall from the pressure drop. So basically the way it is tuned in that string you have the very tail end of a bell curve and thats ok and what I go for if it keeps the velocity inside the ES I am after. If you get it correct you get more shots without hurting the ES. I cant explain the other string maybe Scott or Bob will have an answer.
I think on some of my other strings I had the balance almost perfect. It was just a flat trend with no increase at the end. It's definitely a fine line to get it just right. I'm going to shoot it as is and if anything try either shortening another "Red" spring just as little as I can or perhaps trying the other spring in my collection that is the same length but lighter. Who Knows??
Thanks Leland
Jimmy
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Hi Jimmy,
How quickly does the regulator refill? My buddy is concerned that I'll have to wait a few seconds for the chamber to refill before taking a follow-up shot.
R, Steve
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Hi Jimmy,
How quickly does the regulator refill? My buddy is concerned that I'll have to wait a few seconds for the chamber to refill before taking a follow-up shot.
I have been watching Mr. Lane's tuning videos. If I understand him correctly, he says to flatten out a shot string that increases in velocity as the reservoir pressure drops, shim behind the outlet valve spring. He suggests tiny shims that are .5mm, 1mm, 1.5mm not to exceed 3mm. He says that these tiny increases in the outlet valve spring pressure make a big difference in the AirArms guns. I haven't taken my gun apart yet, but it looks like these shims would need to be custom machined on a lathe.
R, Steve
I dont think you will have to worry how fast it fills, it is almost instantaneous. I have several AG's that are regulated and the gauges show the regulated pressure. and the gauge if you watch it goes down and back up almost faster than you can see it happen.
William
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Hi Jimmy,
How quickly does the regulator refill? My buddy is concerned that I'll have to wait a few seconds for the chamber to refill before taking a follow-up shot.
I have been watching Mr. Lane's tuning videos. If I understand him correctly, he says to flatten out a shot string that increases in velocity as the reservoir pressure drops, shim behind the outlet valve spring. He suggests tiny shims that are .5mm, 1mm, 1.5mm not to exceed 3mm. He says that these tiny increases in the outlet valve spring pressure make a big difference in the AirArms guns. I haven't taken my gun apart yet, but it looks like these shims would need to be custom machined on a lathe.
R, Steve
I dont think you will have to worry how fast it fills, it is almost instantaneous. I have several AG's that are regulated and the gauges show the regulated pressure. and the gauge if you watch it goes down and back up almost faster than you can see it happen.
William
I agree. While I was shooting strings over the chrony I was shooting fairly fast and I would say faster than any follow up shots I would take while hunting and it didnt impact the velocity. The S510 is pretty fast to cycle but if you had to cycle the rifle and then acquire a target again you would probably be looking at 2 sec min. So even if it took 2 sec to fill it would be unlikely you would ever take shots faster than that.
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I found a video where Mr. Lane describes how his regulator is capable of keeping up with semi and full auto air guns. He goes on to disassemble a BSA regulator and show how small the air passages are thus requiring more time between shots for the plenum to refill. My friend was referring to an AGE regulator which has a screw that restricts the air flow into the plenum. I gather that this screw is supposed to flatten out the shot string at the expense of plenum refill time. I don't know. I'm still learning. I'm preparing to install a regulator into my .22cal S410 Extra ERB. It's perhaps my favorite gun and I really don't want to screw it up. I'm sure all of have the same thoughts.
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My friend was referring to an AGE regulator which has a screw that restricts the air flow into the plenum. I gather that this screw is supposed to flatten out the shot string at the expense of plenum refill time. I don't know
The AGE regulator is the Dutch HuMa unit ;)
Small grub screw used is indeed a flow restriction to keep the sealing seat from getting pounded & damaged from the cycling. By slightly slowing down the flow across seat regulator also tends to find it's set point more accurately shot to shot.
HuMa regulators IMO are the Gold Standard for multi gun applications without breaking the bank .. GREAT UNITS !!
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This is a great thread, I started following it when I was planning on getting a S510 myself, unfortunately funds did not permit :( so I bought a different pcp. I am still following it because I think there is good info that may apply to my rifle. Thanks, Robert.
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What software are you guys using to generate the graphs?
Thanks
R, Steve
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What software are you guys using to generate the graphs?
Thanks
R, Steve
Most use Microsoft Excel... works great. If you have it and not sure how to make graphs and things just look up some how too videos on YouTube.
Some of the members may be even be kind enough to send you a copy as well!
William
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What software are you guys using to generate the graphs?
Thanks
R, Steve
Hey Steve, I'll gladly send you a copy of the one I'm using. Send me an email to jimmy_king@oxy.com.
Jimmy
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Jimmy have you done anymore adjustments since turning the hammer down? I turned mine down another 2 grams and it appears the velocity didnt change. Its now at 34.5 grams.
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Jimmy have you done anymore adjustments since turning the hammer down? I turned mine down another 2 grams and it appears the velocity didnt change. Its now at 34.5 grams.
No I haven't Leland, just been enjoying it the way it is. It's shooting very accurately the way it's set up. The last time I shot a couple of 16's through the chrony just for a check it had dropped about 20fps, down to about 860 so I need to investigate that. I'm thinking either cooler temps and cooler gun or maybe my spring has settled or possibly the hammer rod needs some sort of lube. It's pretty much just running dry right now.
Funny thing is too, after all this "fine" tuning, lightening the hammer more and trying different springs I'm back to an almost identical string as my very first one :D
Your hammer weight is the same as mine now. How is your string looking?
Jimmy
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well after reducing the hammer weight to the current point I had to little energy to open the valve. I went from an average 843 fps while on the regulator to an average of about 815 - 820 fps. So the funny thing is I started looking at the point my pressure dropped off the reg and I would have the 815 - 820 fps until my pressure was at 165 bar. Then it would start the climb up as pressure dropped and settle at 844 fps around 140 - 145 bar. So it looks like my regulator was actually set at or around 165 - 170 bar. That would make sense and that would explain why mine from the factory was set a hair above 132 bar if they come set at 140 - 145 bar. It appears that the scale was put on before the reg was tested and is designed more of a guide than what the actual setting may be. So I dropped the regulator setting back down and put it at 137 bar on the scale and thats 4 - 5 bar more than factory. I will shoot it today and see what the string looks like.
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well after reducing the hammer weight to the current point I had to little energy to open the valve. I went from an average 843 fps while on the regulator to an average of about 815 - 820 fps. So the funny thing is I started looking at the point my pressure dropped off the reg and I would have the 815 - 820 fps until my pressure was at 165 bar. Then it would start the climb up as pressure dropped and settle at 844 fps around 140 - 145 bar. So it looks like my regulator was actually set at or around 165 - 170 bar. That would make sense and that would explain why mine from the factory was set a hair above 132 bar if they come set at 140 - 145 bar. It appears that the scale was put on before the reg was tested and is designed more of a guide than what the actual setting may be. So I dropped the regulator setting back down and put it at 137 bar on the scale and thats 4 - 5 bar more than factory. I will shoot it today and see what the string looks like.
Wow that's is high,
How do you monitor the pressure as your shooting? Are you staying connected to your fill tank and watching that gauge? That velocity drop on mine I mentioned had me bugged so I put a full length spring back in mine. The last time I tried that it gave me the 922-924 starting velocity with a steady decline and a low shot count. This time it was shooting 911-915 so I'm hoping it will settle at the 900 range. I'm still not sure why my previous velocity dropped but the only thing I can think of is the cooler weather or the spring settling. :-\ :-\ :-\
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So after reading all this, my question is..was it worth putting on the regulator?
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When the regulator set point was to high for my pre load it was easy to see when it fell of the regulator so I was going by that point. I could have been off a little and it might have been closer to 155 bar. I talked to Nick and he offered to replace the regulator if I felt it wasntbperforming as it should. I told him I would watch it and see how it works at this new setting. I have been happy with the regulator so far and my only complaint are the few low shots I get. If it continues I will talk to Nick about it and see what he thinks.
So after reading all this, my question is..was it worth putting on the regulator?
Absolutely! I gained 8 shots while increasing the power and reduced the ES by half. To take it one step further if you used only the shots from both strings that had the same ES then it really doubled the shot count. A blind man should be able to see benefit of the regulator ;)
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So after reading all this, my question is..was it worth putting on the regulator?
I guess it all depends how you use your gun. Mine is the carbine version and it was only getting 22-23 shots within the 3%ES range. Now I'm getting 40+ at 1% or better. It really pays off in the carbine gun. If I just hunted or occassionally shot it, that 22-23 would be fine but I like to shoot paper alot when theres no critters to hunt. I like shooting for groups and distance and not having to refill the gun every few minutes is a big bonus. I noticed you have an S510 FAC 22. Now if its the long gun, knowing what I know now I wouldn't regulate that one if it were mine. I had the S500 FAC Extra and if my memory serves I was getting 30-33 shots in the sweet spot at 1% ES and under. I still have those strings saved so I could check if needed. The reason I got rid of that gun was that it was louder than I liked but with a moderator is was super quiet but also very, very long. With the carbine and a moderator and regulated it's a sweet gun. That just my take though..
jimmy
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This thread has been very enlightening for us ownwers of the AA S510 carbine. Thanks for that.
I would like to tune my carbine up to about 35 fpe. How many shots do you think I could attain with a regulator?
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I have not set mine above 30 fpe so I dont know from personal experience byt Scott posted some info on his 410 set up at higher fpe earlier in this thread. I believe he was right around your goal and he did some valve mods to get there and I believe he said he got 25 - 27 shots.
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So after reading all this, my question is..was it worth putting on the regulator?
I guess it all depends how you use your gun. Mine is the carbine version and it was only getting 22-23 shots within the 3%ES range. Now I'm getting 40+ at 1% or better. It really pays off in the carbine gun. If I just hunted or occassionally shot it, that 22-23 would be fine but I like to shoot paper alot when theres no critters to hunt. I like shooting for groups and distance and not having to refill the gun every few minutes is a big bonus. I noticed you have an S510 FAC 22. Now if its the long gun, knowing what I know now I wouldn't regulate that one if it were mine. I had the S500 FAC Extra and if my memory serves I was getting 30-33 shots in the sweet spot at 1% ES and under. I still have those strings saved so I could check if needed. The reason I got rid of that gun was that it was louder than I liked but with a moderator is was super quiet but also very, very long. With the carbine and a moderator and regulated it's a sweet gun. That just my take though..
jimmy
Thanks for the info. Mine is a .22 Carbine. I turn the power down just below the half mark. Which on 15.89g JSB exacts, was 670fps. Running it down to 100 bar, gives about 70 shots. I think I once shot it at full power and a 100 bar was maybe 40 or 50 shots. Its been a couple years.
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I have not set mine above 30 fpe so I dont know from personal experience byt Scott posted some info on his 410 set up at higher fpe earlier in this thread. I believe he was right around your goal and he did some valve mods to get there and I believe he said he got 25 - 27 shots.
You are right, but Scott's barrel is 20". Stock carbine barrel is 15", according to PA. I read somewhere that each inch produces an increase of about 10 fps, but not sure about that.
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This thread has been very enlightening for us ownwers of the AA S510 carbine. Thanks for that.
I would like to tune my carbine up to about 35 fpe. How many shots do you think I could attain with a regulator?
I don't think you could get over 20-25 with the short barrel at that energy, this is just a WAG though. My carbine in factory trim was only peaking at 33 for a few few shots before it started on its down slope.On the upside with the regulator in the gun you don't have to worry about valve lock with a higher fill pressure so that's another part of the equation.
Jk
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As shared in previous posts and thread links .... a .22 cal Carbine at 35 ft lbs power with all the tricks done is good for 25-27 shots TOPS !!
Getting mine to do this took a larger plenum volume and a reduced diameter poppet stem within throat area, greater flow feeding poppet cavity using a well drilled spring retention cap. Transfer hole in barrel also larger with that EXTRA 6 inches of barrel ( 21" total ) that given the rule of @ 10 fps per inch gave an extra 60 fps +/- !
That stated ... Not sure you can make 35 ft lbs in 15" of barrel ??? ... So that most likely is NOT a realistic goal :P
JMO ...
Scott
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I have not set mine above 30 fpe so I dont know from personal experience byt Scott posted some info on his 410 set up at higher fpe earlier in this thread. I believe he was right around your goal and he did some valve mods to get there and I believe he said he got 25 - 27 shots.
You are right, but Scott's barrel is 20". Stock carbine barrel is 15", according to PA. I read somewhere that each inch produces an increase of about 10 fps, but not sure about that.
Sry cilami I forgot about the extra barrel length.
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That is what I was looking for! ;)
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Thought I'd share some groups I shot this evening with some 18.1's at 865. I shot five off of the target to get warmed up and then shot five groups of five and then another 10 shots on a different target not pictured. Around shot 35 or so I was getting a slight rise in the POI, I'm assuming where I'm running off the regulator and gaining a little velocity. The groups hold together well out to 40 shots. I haven't shot a full string over the chrony to see what's it's doing now with the full spring but I thought I'd shoot it a few days first and give the spring and hammer time to get acquainted better. ::) ::) ::)This might be my best consecutive five shot groups yet. (50yds).
Jimmy
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Miscilanious%20Photos/Air%20Arms%20S510%20Carbine/image_zpskzvvzmrm.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Miscilanious%20Photos/Air%20Arms%20S510%20Carbine/image_zpskzvvzmrm.jpg.html)
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l540/kingji01/Miscilanious%20Photos/Air%20Arms%20S510%20Carbine/image_zpsqjphrfo7.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/kingji01/media/Miscilanious%20Photos/Air%20Arms%20S510%20Carbine/image_zpsqjphrfo7.jpg.html)
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Nice groups Jimmy.
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Nothing wrong with those groups.
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Thanks guys, once regulated they sure are nice (nicer) guns.
Jimmy
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Very nice groups Jimmy!
+1 on regulating Air Arms pcp's.
Cheers,
Smoketown
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S510 Striker Phase 2
I just corrected a few dimensional mistakes in one of my earlier posts.
(*** designates corrected information.)
As mentioned in the earlier post, taking the diameter down to the ‘impact ring’ diameter of .610 inches will give you a striker weight of ~34 grams, 31% less than stock.
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Hammer/Phone%2010-25-15%20043.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Hammer/Phone%2010-25-15%20043.jpg.html)
“Striker 1” currently gives me 70 good shots with the stock striker spring. (I suppose I SHOULD have been happy with that …) ;)
I took “Striker 2” down to the same dimensions and took off a bit more metal (down to .5 inches) behind the ‘impact ring’ and got down to 29 grams, 41% less than stock.
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Hammer/Phone%2010-25-15%20042.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Hammer/Phone%2010-25-15%20042.jpg.html)
Then, I made a few of rough cuts to slab side the striker and wound up with a weight of 26.6 grams, 45% less than stock.
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Hammer/Phone%2011_9_15%20014.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Hammer/Phone%2011_9_15%20014.jpg.html)
As I said before, the above can be easily accomplished ‘Red Green Style’ with nothing more than a 1/2 inch drill press, a 4 inch angle grinder and some emery cloth backed up with a paint stirring stick.
My next step is going to be cross drilling the pot as Scott/Motorhead did for a bit better air flow.
Then, I’ll be lightening up the (stock) firing valve spring to hopefully regain some lost FPS.
Because I can be a bit ham handed at times, I intend to use as many “unmodified” factory parts as possible. ::)
I’m also doing this in a manner that if it doesn’t turn out exactly as planned, the rifle can be easily returned to its last good working level. ;D
Cheers,
Smoketown
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That looks great Jim. Have you shot a string with the last hammer modification? My last lightning step dropped my velocity more than I thought it would. I was able to get it back with the full length spring but I don't think the shot count was any greater. Do you still have the full length spring intact? I guess you could always drill some holes in the greatest OD ring to take some more weight off. Again nice work.
Jimmy
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Jimmy,
So far I have not had much time to play. It's funny how work keeps getting in the way … >:(
The way it is now, I think that the Striker-2 MAY be “light enough”. ;)
Although, I do think it's funny you should mention drilling holes … There WAS some serious thought of “Swiss Cheesing” everything between the two bushings. ::)
The striker spring is full length and stock.
The firing valve spring in the pot is from Robert Lane and going to be replaced with the (lighter/weaker) stock spring when I cross drill it “A la-Motorhead”, followed by another shot string with Striker-1. Hopefully, I'll pick up a few fps.
I'm also going to order a few firing valve springs and trim them 1, 2 and 3 coils shorter to use with Striker-2, that way, I can back step if I need to.
I'm probably nuts but, my goal is to use the stock/strongest striker spring and balance the firing valve spring to the lightest striker possible.
Cheers,
Smoketown
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Just a point of reference being i was screwing around with my 410 over the weekend putting it back into the GniB bullpup stock.
Was sighting it back in and just shooting Crosman CPHP's ( 14.3 g ) cause there cheap !
Over the chrony with the 14.3's .... 990 fps !! making @ 31 ft lbs.
Of course heavier pellets make more energy.
Hot shootin little carbine to be sure ;D
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Just a point of reference being i was screwing around with my 410 over the weekend putting it back into the GniB bullpup stock.
Was sighting it back in and just shooting Crosman CPHP's ( 14.3 g ) cause there cheap !
Over the chrony with the 14.3's .... 990 fps !! making @ 31 ft lbs.
Of course heavier pellets make more energy.
Hot shootin little carbine to be sure ;D
Yes it is, any faster and them little Crosman's might vaporize, lol. What's your best pellet for that gun Scott? Mine likes both the JSB's, 16 and 18's but the heavier in the end was most accurate.
jk
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Just a point of reference being i was screwing around with my 410 over the weekend putting it back into the GniB bullpup stock.
Was sighting it back in and just shooting Crosman CPHP's ( 14.3 g ) cause there cheap !
Over the chrony with the 14.3's .... 990 fps !! making @ 31 ft lbs.
Of course heavier pellets make more energy.
Hot shootin little carbine to be sure ;D
Yes it is, any faster and them little Crosman's might vaporize, lol. What's your best pellet for that gun Scott? Mine likes both the JSB's, 16 and 18's but the heavier in the end was most accurate.
jk
Tend to go JSB 15.9's
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Darn it !!!
PA doesn't have what I need so, it looks like I'm going to have to order parts from across the pond ... :(
I believe this is what Motorhead did to his pot ... I purposely used a countersink that chatters ... I have a single flute that will clean it up if it's not to my liking.
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Hammer/11_12_15%20Phone%20003.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Hammer/11_12_15%20Phone%20003.jpg.html)
The wait begins ... Again!
Cheers,
Smoketown
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Darn it !!!
PA doesn't have what I need so, it looks like I'm going to have to order parts from across the pond ... :(
I believe this is what Motorhead did to his pot ... I purposely used a countersink that chatters ... I have a single flute that will clean it up if it's not to my liking.
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Hammer/11_12_15%20Phone%20003.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Hammer/11_12_15%20Phone%20003.jpg.html)
The wait begins ... Again!
Cheers,
Smoketown
Thats it ;D .... along with a reduced diameter poppet stem within throat area = more air in and more air out ;)
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S510 Striker Phase 3
Latest trial is with the 34 gram striker, stock striker spring, cross drilled pot and the stock firing valve (poppet) spring. (Regulator is as received at 135 bar.)
The bad news - The shot count is DOWN to ~60 shots before falling off the regulator. :(
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String%208.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String%208.jpg.html)
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String9.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String9.jpg.html)
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String10.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String10.jpg.html)
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String11.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String11.jpg.html)
Next will be the 26.6 gram striker and more shots over the chronograph. ::)
Cheers,
Smoketown
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S510 Striker Phase 3 Part B
Here are some more graphs … Now with the 26.6 gram striker.
I broke up the strings to try to get a better picture of what is happening.
At least the shot count is going up! ;D
I also did NO editing so it's “the good, the bad and the ugly”. (Queue the music in 3,2,1 …)
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String12.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String12.jpg.html)
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String13.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String13.jpg.html)
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String14.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String14.jpg.html)
Now, I believe that I'm going to have to rely on some of the more “seasoned” members of this fine forum to tell me exactly what it is that I'm seeing here.
Cheers,
Smoketown
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The velocity shifts are IMO far too great !! ..... IMO the regulator IS NOT DOING WELL in recovering to same plenum pressure shot to shot, let alone as storage pressure changes :P
Hate to be the one to state the obvious ... Loose the LANE regulator and put in a HuMa ;)
When you see velocity shift and stability changes within a single fill it is telling on how well regulator is detecting storage pressure and then plenum pressure adjusting the differential to be the output set pressure ( Plenum pressure )
IMO what happens as you change hammer strike, spring loads either poppet or hammer ... the amount of air used to launch pellet changes ... obviously ::)
But now what ever the pressure drop within plenum was, regulator needs to replace it and to what degree of accuracy it does so is in question here ?
If valve is being really effecient with just minimal sips of air per shot the recovery / replacement of plenum pressure become small .... where as if valve is thirsty dumping a lot of air, plenum pressure fall more after the shot and regulator recovers from a lower plenum pressure.
HOW WELL REGULATORS meter from a little sip or big sip from plenum is very telling on there metering precision.
Look at your set ups and shot strings seeing if correlation exists where perhaps changing plenum VOLUME may benefit regulators recovery accuracy :o
Just thinking out loud here ;)
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Well, for the most part "seasoned" rules me out other than age. Scott is probably right though. Way back on some of my previous strings when I first installed the Lane I'd get maybe 3-5 shots that were out of the norm with no explanation. I started watching my guns gauge very carefully and when the regulator either slightly under filled or over filled the resulting shot was the odd ball velocities. You can go back on this thread and see what I was seeing. That along with the noises (squeeks and whistles) after the shot led me to replacing the regulator with the HUMA. No issues at all after that. Jim, you might re-format your chart so that ever one or two feet velocity change isn't so noticable. Looking at the numbers for the most part the extreme spread isn't too bad untill it takes off with the eronious numbers. It might make it easier to diagnose the problem too.
jimmy
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Jimmy,
On 9-11-15, I asked you about the “annoying wheezing sound” and you answered …
The problem was I already had the Lane regulator.
Therefore it became a case of, “Run what you brung”. ;)
I had also hoped that the regulator would ‘shoot itself in’ but, that was at least four tins ago. >:(
My original graphs/charts had a much greater FPS spacing.
It looked to me like they artificially flattened the string and camouflaged too many of the warts. :o
As an example, here's graphs 12-14 as above with a 50 FPS spacing …
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String12_50.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String12_50.jpg.html)
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String13_50.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String13_50.jpg.html)
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String14_50.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Strings/S510String14_50.jpg.html)
As to what may be erroneous readings …
Well, I couldn't afford the Oehler 35P, so I ran my Oehler 33 and my Pact Mk III on the same bar.
They typically read with in ~7 FPS of each other ... It's my “poor man’s proof channel”. 8)
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/TX200/cRange_2.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/TX200/cRange_2.jpg.html)
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/TX200/cTwin%20Chronys_1.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/TX200/cTwin%20Chronys_1.jpg.html)
Cheers,
Smoketown
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Scott,
Although I didn't want to hear it, thank you for the conformation …
I agree that the regulator appears to have a rather poor recovery rate. :(
The way it looks now, I may be taking some measurements and sending an e-mail to Nick at Airsuperiority.
Cheers,
Smoketown
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Hey Jim, with the Huma being shorter I had to add a spacer I made out of a aluminum electrical fitting turned down in a lathe. Seems like it was around .30" in length.
Jimmy
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Oh My,
It looks like it's red Loctite time!!
While I was out “pesting” I had a number of misses and what's even worse, a few bad hits … :-[
I went about checking all of the screws and then put it on paper.
Patterns would have been a charitable description. >:(
Well, nothing to do but to open her up.
This is what I found … :o
Although the rear bushing had what appeared to be a glob of glue/adhesive in front of it, the front one appears to have been put in dry.
Of course, my grinding on outside of the striker had nothing to do with it loosening up … ::)
I did talk to Nick and he will be sending a HuMa Regulator for a .25 cal Air Arms as it has the longest spacer. 8)
Hopefully, the spacer will be ‘long enough’.
(http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i364/jbcwi/S510/S510%20Hammer/Phone%2012-7-15%20006.jpg) (http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/jbcwi/media/S510/S510%20Hammer/Phone%2012-7-15%20006.jpg.html)
Cheers,
Smoketown
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I was wondering how tight those bearings were and how to get them out if I ever needed to. I guess all the grinding you did got things pretty warmed up. If your bushing isn't long enough for your new regulator let me know and I'll see if have some material to make you one out of. I just got a stock of Delrin and aluminum so I should be able to help if needed. I would think delrin would work ok in the high pressure application. Either way I have both.
Jimmy
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You don't think that removing that much material from the hammer has created something wobbly?
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You don't think that removing that much material from the hammer has created something wobbly?
Im not sure what you are saying. Why would lightening the hammer cause wobble? The S510 hammer doesnt ride on the outside but rides on a guide rod thru the middle of the hammer.
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OK, I did not know that:) It was just that those shot cycles looked so erratic I thought maybe it was more than the reg.
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I was wondering how tight those bearings were and how to get them out if I ever needed to. I guess all the grinding you did got things pretty warmed up. If your bushing isn't long enough for your new regulator let me know and I'll see if have some material to make you one out of. I just got a stock of Delrin and aluminum so I should be able to help if needed. I would think delrin would work ok in the high pressure application. Either way I have both.
Jimmy
Jimmy,
Thank you for the very generous offer !! ;D
Hopefully, the .25 cal. plenum spacer will be long enough.
As far as the bushings go, there is a small lip and you'll need a long pin punch but, I think that they only come out when you DON'T want them to ... ;)
Cheers,
Smoketown