GTA

Target Shooting Matches, Discussion & Events => Shooting Match Gates => 10 Meter Off Hand Air Rifle Match => Topic started by: timegoat on February 28, 2011, 10:35:26 AM

Title: Results for GTA OPEN - 10 Yard Off Hand Air Rifle Match #4 Yr.3
Post by: timegoat on February 28, 2011, 10:35:26 AM

Match #4 is ovah!

Name	Rifle	Sights	Pellet	Score	x
Brushy Bill	Crosman 2250 XT	Centerpoint 4-16	Crosman Premier (Box)	199	14
GerryL	Air Arms TX-200	Leapers 4-16x56	0.177 H&N Finale Match (Rifle)	190	6
timegoat	Diana 34	Beeman Peep	0.177 RWS Superdome	188	3
Daysailer	HW30S	Williams Rear Peep	RWS Meisterkugeln	185	1
aack73	Benji C9A Silver Streak	Tasco Pronghorn	H&N Match WC	185	0
gamo2hammerli	Air Arms S410SL Carbine	Simmons Prosport 4-12x50	0.22 CPHP	174	1
Spook	Ruger Blackhawk	Open Sights	0.177 CP	150	1

Well done all!

- Mark

Title: Re: Results for GTA OPEN - 10 Yard Off Hand Air Rifle Match #4 Yr.3
Post by: Kirk B on February 28, 2011, 11:26:04 AM

Nice shootin' all.

I was hoping to break 180 with my Trail this week but she's kinda sick. Out of the box the Ruger shoots ok and I'm sure I can do better with it given some time. I'm just glad to have something else to shoot until I get the Benji straightened out.

Title: Re: Results for GTA OPEN - 10 Yard Off Hand Air Rifle Match #4 Yr.3
Post by: aack73 on February 28, 2011, 07:47:48 PM

dang Bill that's awesome free hand shooting. maybe you should use a blow dart gun or just throw the pellets. Lol!
Seriously good shooting. gives something to strive for. willing to give any pointers as how to hold still?

ps good job to all.... kudos to Bill.

Title: Re: Results for GTA OPEN - 10 Yard Off Hand Air Rifle Match #4 Yr.3
Post by: Brushy Bill on March 01, 2011, 06:42:14 PM

Thanks aack73.
Don't really know what to tell ya
other than keep on shooting. The hardest
part is to pay attention to what is happening
while you are shooting.

I always try and make my natural point
of aim is as close to the center of the bull as I can.

I shoot the left side first, top to bottom, then move to
the right two bulls, again shooting them top to bottom.
That way, the only thing I am changing in my position
is the elevation.

If it takes more than 5-7 seconds to get the rifle to
settle into a small wobble area once I stop breathing.
I stop the shot process, lower the rifle, take a few slow,
cleansing breaths and try again.
Without a shooting coat, past 7 seconds, my hold is getting
very squirrely. It is best for me to just stop and start over.

Don't cut yourself short aack, a 185of200 is a pretty dang good
score. (dangerously close to 93%)

Don't get in a hurry when your shooting, if things don't settle
down in a reasonable amount of time for you, (what ever length of
time that is) don't force (rush) the shot.
You cannot allow yourself to defeat yourself mentally.

Try to practice shooting sitting straight, in a sturdy chair, rest your left
elbow/ upper arm on your ribcage for support. (if you shoot right handed)

This will let you focus on what your upper body needs to do
to steady the rifle. Then, when you are shooting standing, the
upper body muscles are more trained to do what they need, and
you can focus more on the legs and feet.
Move those feet around, to rotate your body and establish
a good natural point of aim. (instead of twisting the body)

And just keep shooting. Simply refusing to rush a shot can
take you well into the 190's quicker than you may think.

I am really happy to see you, (and all the others) are trying to improve
your marksmanship skills. It can be a long and sometimes
frustrating road to take. Being able to repeatedly produce quality
shots are the rewards.

It wont be long before you will be seeing the biggest part of the
10 ring gone after that fourth shot.

Title: Re: Results for GTA OPEN - 10 Yard Off Hand Air Rifle Match #4 Yr.3
Post by: aack73 on March 01, 2011, 09:23:19 PM

thanks for the input. i stand with a wide stance and rest my left elbow on my ribs/gut. i have noticed if i don't settle down a little bit with in a few seconds i do exactly like you said and "reset" and try again. but even when i get the wobble down some i am never truly steady and i have to squeeze off a calculated guess as i pass over the bull. i didn't know if you/ya'll could actually hold steady, if it took practice, special muscle training, or you were born with surgeon like steadiness. at best my wobble will get fairly small around the bull and i can time it pretty close sometimes. and that 185/200 was probably blind luck and a fluke. lasts night i shot a 160 with the c9a and about 175 with the mrod. it's alot easier with the mrod mainly because of trigger and scope. when i shot the 185 i was on my blue tooth talking to my buddy. maybe i over think it a little.?  

Title: Re: Results for GTA OPEN - 10 Yard Off Hand Air Rifle Match #4 Yr.3
Post by: Kirk B on March 01, 2011, 10:34:47 PM

Quote from: Brushy Bill on March 01, 2011, 06:42:14 PM

Move those feet around, to rotate your body and establish
a good natural point of aim. (instead of twisting the body)

Got a question for you Bill. I have been standing and facing about 45 degrees to the right of the target (I'm right handed). When I shoulder the rifle my point of aim is still to the right and I have been twisting at the waist to bring the sights on target. I read that standing 90 degrees to the target and twisting at the waist was more proper but I have a few extra lbs on me and that's not comfortable. Are you suggesting that it would be better to orient myself in such a way that when I shoulder the rifle, I'm already lined up with the target?

Title: Re: Results for GTA OPEN - 10 Yard Off Hand Air Rifle Match #4 Yr.3
Post by: Brushy Bill on March 02, 2011, 01:20:15 AM

For Spook, aack73 and anyone else who would
like to take the time to read.
A little bit on Natural point of aim, and wobble area.

I have never in my life met anyone who did not
wobble when sighting a rifle. (in the standing position)
Here is a video of Olympic bronze medalist
Miss. Snježana Pejčić (don't ask me to pronounce that)
using a scatt electronic trainer. It clearly shows her wobble,
when you see the white spot appear, that is the shot she
broke. (that is a 0.177 white spot, to put this into perspective)
The tracing line turns yellow one second before the shot breaks,
the longer red line is movement after it breaks.
Edit: There will come a time when all International Competitions
will be shot in this manner. No pellets going down range.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2zPkVJoR-I# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2zPkVJoR-I#)

When you are watching the video, you will see that
her best shots were released within 5 seconds or less of actually
getting on the target. The longer she held, the farther out
the shot fell.
The point is, everyone does it. Our goal is that through practice,
and position fine tuning. We make that wobble area as small
as possible.

Finding you natural point of aim.

When you shoulder your rifle, sight the target.
While you are doing that, find the center of your
wobble area. Close your eyes for a second or three.
Open them, if the wobble area is to the left or right
of the center of the target, move your feet to adjust your
entire body to correct it. Right foot to the left if it moves
to the left, and to the right if it moves to the right. It takes very little
movement to make an adjustment and your left foot will just be rotated
to correct your stance. (make it comfortable again)
Then check again.
This does change the angle of your body in relation to the target,
no big deal. The angle becomes what ever it is to make you comfortable.

If it is higher or lower, it has more with the placement of your left
hand supporting the rifle. This is where a mitt or glove comes in handy.

You stating that you "twist" your body confuses me a little.
There should be no effort made to twist your body in any direction.
(this is what we are trying to eliminate by finding our natrual point
of aim)

I would say that my body is probably between 90 & 45 degrees to the target.
But that is what works for me. I am heavier now than I was when
the photo in my avatar was taken. The angle is still basically the same.

Here is a bigger version of that pic.
(http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww55/BrushyBill/sightinperiod.jpg)
One other thing, if you look at the butt of the rifle, you will see that it
is barely resting against my shoulder. (placed high)
This allowed me to keep my head in a more upright and natural
position. Making me more comfortable in my stance.
When I shoulder the 2250XT I have been shooting, it is the same way.
My smallbore rifle was again, the same way.

I do not shoot the forum matches using a shooting coat.
My right elbow is as close to my body as I can make it.
(It's actually touching)
In the picture above, it is as close as the material in the
coat will allow.
I am not saying that you should or should not do the same,
if it helps make you more stable, go with it.

As you said aack73, it is a timing game.
But if you are making too much of a conscious effort to hit your
timing mark, it can cause you to jerk the trigger, and the rifle.

My wobble tends to work in a laying down figure 8 pattern.
(more left and right than up and down)
If I find myself breaking shots in a certain area of the target,
I try to adjust my timing to correct it. It is hard to describe, but once
you get the trigger time in you will understand what I mean.

Triggers are another part if this timing equation.
The trigger in my 2250XT is a very good (for a Crosman) set up
using the two stage sear from Airguns of Arizona.
It has a very light and positive first stage stop, and the second
stage breaks with probably less than 0.010 movement of the trigger
past the first stage "bump" with about 12 ounces of pressure.
It is very predictable and consistent.

As far as what you can do to help reduce the size of your wobble?
I do know that over this past few months, posting a blank sheet
of card stock. Shooting a hole in it and then shooting five more shots
at that hole has helped me. (aim small, miss small) Then i move to another
spot on the sheet and do it again.

When I am sighting the Gamox5 target, my wobble area seldom
takes up more than half of the 9-ring. On a good day, it is less.
(that is at 15-16 power on the scope)
I am not aiming at the 10 ring, I am aiming at that x-dot.

High magnification does show the wobble more pronounced
just as a front aperture sized too close to the size of the black
of the bull will.

All this stuff is part of the picture. I have had people ask me what is
the most important part of shooting, breathing, trigger control, stance
(position), sight picture?
I have to say none of them,, and all of them.
It is a package thing, none are really more important than
any of the others. They all have to be good, to repeatably
produce a good shot.

I wish I could shoot with you guys in person, that is the best way
to diagnose and improve what is going on.
In the mean time, lets continue to try and communicate and do
the best we can here.

Quote

when i shot the 185 i was on my blue tooth talking to my buddy.

Maybe you do just need to relax a little?  ;)

I hope both of you hang in there and keep on trying.

Title: Re: Results for GTA OPEN - 10 Yard Off Hand Air Rifle Match #4 Yr.3
Post by: Kirk B on March 02, 2011, 10:02:37 AM

Wow Bill! First off thanks for your help. I'm at work right now so I'll have to reread your post later when I can digest it properly.
Second, have you ever considered using speech to text software? I may take up a collection from these guys and buy it for you to save you some time typing.  ;D ;D ;D
J/K man, I look forward to all your posts.

Title: Re: Results for GTA OPEN - 10 Yard Off Hand Air Rifle Match #4 Yr.3
Post by: Brushy Bill on March 02, 2011, 11:05:47 AM

Speech to text software?
I was raised by, and all my relatives
are hillbillies from southeastern kentucky.
(I am proud of each and every one of them)
I doubt that this software could understand
my "hillbilly speak". :D

I don't mind doing the typing. I realize my post
tend to be quite long. I don't set out to write
a freaking novel.  :o(really I don't)

I just hope that they in some way
help someone to shoot better.
If it does, it is time sell spent
for both of us.

Title: Re: Results for GTA OPEN - 10 Yard Off Hand Air Rifle Match #4 Yr.3
Post by: Kirk B on March 02, 2011, 01:26:50 PM

Quote from: Brushy Bill on March 02, 2011, 01:20:15 AM

You stating that you "twist" your body confuses me a little.
There should be no effort made to twist your body in any direction.

While researching proper offhand form, I read that you should stand 90 degrees from the target. If I do that I have to twist at the waist to get on target. I assumed that position was meant to put your body under a little tension, for lack of a better way to put it, to help stabilize it. I'd read about shooters getting into postion and then rotating a foot slightly to achieve this effect on the legs so I assumed the same principal was to be applied to the upper body.

I found that getting on target from a 90 degree stance was too uncomfortable so I reduced the angle to maybe 50-60 degrees but still had to rotate left somewhat to get on target. That stance was not uncomfortable but it also didn't utilize a natural point of aim. From what I had read, I figured it would just work better with practice but I can see the advantage of the natural aiming posture. I can't wait to give it a go.

Quote from: Brushy Bill on March 02, 2011, 01:20:15 AM

When I am sighting the Gamox5 target, my wobble area seldom
takes up more than half of the 9-ring. On a good day, it is less.
(that is at 15-16 power on the scope).

Um, wow! I'm wobbling all the way out to the 7 or 6 ring at times. I have been shooting a hole in a blank page and practicing with that as my aiming point as you described. I know if I keep it up I'll learn to improve my wobble and learn how to better deal with it.

Title: Re: Results for GTA OPEN - 10 Yard Off Hand Air Rifle Match #4 Yr.3
Post by: aack73 on March 02, 2011, 10:07:24 PM

thanks for the input BB. i like the part about closing my eyes and finding my natural point of aim. i will try that. i do practice some of that. but i need to try and get my shots off sooner. i will practice more and talk less. thanks again. ;D