GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Nomadic Pirate on July 05, 2015, 03:26:21 PM
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I love the concept of the gun, great for packing and carrying on a single point sling.
I've owned, hunted, shot several pups in the past few years, and tested, shot, handled a few more.
I've come to the conclusion the the Pup isn't for me, reason why ?
.....scope height, the bullpup design just don't aloud you to get the scope as close to the bore as a rifle does, and in my type of hunting where shot distance is always an unknown and there's not much time to play with mildots the excessive height of the scope is detrimental.
In the end I can achieve the same degree of packability with a folding or detachable stock rifle, and a carbine is just as comfortable in a single point sling.
so in the future I'll concentrate on carbines with either a detachable or folding stock for tough hunts and the normal wood stock rifles for blind/hide hunts.
Guess my next project will be to make one of the said stocks for my MAX-ML .45 bull pup ;D ;D ;D
Bye bye BullPups !
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Yeah, that's my biggest problem with the airforce guns .
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So are you still testing the Slayer or have you sent it back?
Joe
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So are you still testing the Slayer or have you sent it back?
Joe
No, I'll still finish the review and hunt it for sure.
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Yeah, that's my biggest problem with the airforce guns .
That was unaccettable to me when I got my Airforce gun where the scope is way, way high, that gun was on the classifieds as fast as I could
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Yeah, that's my biggest problem with the airforce guns .
That was unaccettable to me when I got my Airforce gun where the scope is way, way high, that gun was on the classifieds as fast as I could
I saw somewhere a guy that milled the scope rail off and did the side cocking conversion to mount his scope low. Not something that the end user should have to worry about doing, AirForce should be making that from the factory.
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Can I have your Slayer when you are done with it? ;) ;)
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Hey Manny,
I haven't posted here in quite a while. I was probably the first one on the board to own the Evanix 3D Bullpup.
If I remember you are about 5'7"? I wouldn't think you would have that much problem with scope height, but then again, shoulder to head height isn't that much different no matter the height of the man.
I can tell you this, I don't think you will be happy with another type of gun. I liked my Condor a lot, but it wasn't nearly as accurate as the Evanix 3D. I had a HECK of a time with seeing through the scope on the Bullpup, but it was hands down the most accurate air rifle I have ever shot. I have had plenty of them too.
I am getting ready to order the Benjamin Bulldog, I saw that you had a few posts on it, but never found your review. Did you like it? Take a break, don't give up on the Bullpups yet.
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Search is your friend :P, found your review http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=84499.msg811304#msg811304 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=84499.msg811304#msg811304)
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Hey Manny,
I haven't posted here in quite a while. I was probably the first one on the board to own the Evanix 3D Bullpup.
If I remember you are about 5'7"? I wouldn't think you would have that much problem with scope height, but then again, shoulder to head height isn't that much different no matter the height of the man.
I can tell you this, I don't think you will be happy with another type of gun. I liked my Condor a lot, but it wasn't nearly as accurate as the Evanix 3D. I had a HECK of a time with seeing through the scope on the Bullpup, but it was hands down the most accurate air rifle I have ever shot. I have had plenty of them too.
I am getting ready to order the Benjamin Bulldog, I saw that you had a few posts on it, but never found your review. Did you like it? Take a break, don't give up on the Bullpups yet.
With BullPup design you can only get your face so low so the scope is always going to be high on the bore.
in "MY" type of hunting I have more disadvantages than advantages with the BullPup design, I already put 2 Bullpups into wood stocks, now I'm either going to convert the MAX-ML .45 to a folding or detachable stock carbine or maybe trade it to a Rainstorm .30
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Something like this?
RS2 30 cal with fully tensioned TJ barrel. Guaranteed JSB tack driver @ 900 fps :) :) :)
(http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o553/QVTOM/RainStorm/20150705_154912_zpsm5xnbhww.jpg)
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Looks good QVTom!
All I know is that I was sniping pine cones at 150 yards out of the tops of trees with my 3D Bullpup. Kinda miss it.
You would need a Belltone if you shot that thing without ear protection lol.
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And I thought my wife changed her mind a lot! lol Cant wait to see what you build next. always something cool.
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I once had an AR15 that was very accurate, but it had a short lifetime shooting varmints because of its high scope mounting. Too difficult to judge holdover.
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I once had an AR15 that was very accurate, but it had a short lifetime shooting varmints because of its high scope mounting. Too difficult to judge holdover.
Bingo !
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I see scope height only being a small issue under 40 yards with an airgun. We are always calculating holdover (nature of airgun ballistics) unless you only shoot a fixed distance and who does that?
Tom
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Correct, that's why I make sure I always stress the case with something along the lines of "for my applications" "in my hunting"
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I understand I really do LOL! I feel the same way about shooting heavy slugs too slow at longer ranges; the holdover/range estimation becomes hypercritical.
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What about Tom's slayer in carbine version? That thing looks sweet
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What about Tom's slayer in carbine version? That thing looks sweet
Absolutely, that will be a winner indeed.
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The limiting factor in a conventional rifle or carbine is mag clearance. This becomes more of a factor as the bores get bigger with rotary mags. Fortunately most airgunners love large objective lenses :)
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Finally someone sees the light :) The eye relive is one of the many reasons why do don't like BPs.
The other one is that I don't trust the breech by my ear. A good example is that happened to me the other day, while I was shooting my 100fpe mrod 25 through the chrony. I did not put the bolt all the way down. My fault but I will call it a bolt malfunction which can happen. I was holding the gun at waste level. This left my ears ringing for quite a while. If that would have happened with my ear next to the breech I most likely would have damage my ear drum. The bolt just barely moved back but the barrel o-ring was in pieces.
The ear thing has always been my biggest concern then followed by the fact (personal fact) that they are ugly as *(&^ with the exception of tom's. I find that to me the only good looking BP out there. I like the sexy lines of rifles and BP just don't have the proportions to do that. Tom simplicity of design makes it them looking great. Great Job!
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All valid concerns. I was not a fan of BPs until I shot one and believe it or not the first BP I shot was the Slayer LOL. I was pleasantly shocked at how well the Slayer handles, even with its slightly longer than normal length.
I was willing to overlook the shortcomings of a PB in favor of its strengths. For me the point of a BP is not to have the most compact shortest gun made that can be shot out of a Smart car but a platform that could absorb longer barrels with moderators without becoming 6ft long. As interest grows in big bores especially the smaller calibers such as 257, 7mm and 308 the barrels get necessarily longer and longer to get the most out of these calibers. A BP has room to grow without becoming ungainly. Yes, there are are limits that is the reason I chose a higher fill pressure and and the 24" barrel length to keep the overall length down.
We all use hearing and eye protection when shooting; right?
Tom
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So what is the lowest bore to scope height on a typical BP with a typical 3-9x44 scope?
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Not sure what is typical but the Slayer works well for me at 2.5 - 2.75" I think the Condor is 3.5" with low rings.
Tom
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So what is the lowest bore to scope height on a typical BP with a typical 3-9x44 scope?
I can get mine with super low rings on the MAX to 2" from top of shroud to center of optics,...on my rifles is 1 1/4"
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Ok that's about 3/4" to 1" taller than anything I have. My tallest is my rear bottle feed at 2", everything else I have is 1 3/4".
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Not sure what is typical but the Slayer works well for me at 2.5 - 2.75" I think the Condor is 3.5" with low rings.
Tom
The Slayer I have is 1 7/8" from top of shroud to center of optic
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That puts it at just under 2.5" center-to-center for Manny's example. I believe those are medium rings.
Tom
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I could get my rifle that's at 2" lower with shorter rings but it works for what I'm doing with it.
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that should be just about perfect then 1 7/8,or is that as well to high for your style of hunting?i myself have never shot a bullpup,so i do not know anything about them.as for your style of hunting, all i know is what ever you doing ,,,,,,it work's really well for ya.lol just ask the the hogs ' but then they hate you man,,ya know...lol, and i see your 45 bp on the yellow,always thought that was way more gun than you need for your style of hunting,was surprised when i heard you bought one,you have been so successful with smaller caliper air guns that hunting with them the way you do,is more of a art ;D. imo.
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that should be just about perfect then 1 7/8,or is that as well to high for your style of hunting?i myself have never shot a bullpup,so i do not know anything about them.as for your style of hunting, all i know is what ever you doing ,,,,,,it work's really well for ya.lol just ask the the hogs ' but then they hate you man,,ya know...lol, and i see your 45 bp on the yellow,always thought that was way more gun than you need for your style of hunting,was surprised when i heard you bought one,you have been so successful with smaller caliper air guns that hunting with them the way you do,is more of a art ;D. imo.
Yeah, that was an impulse buy :) I actually really like the gun and I could keep going and kill with bullpups but in a way I'm a perfectionist and even if you read early posts of mine about pups in my early days I've always gone the extra mile to lower the scope as much as I could
If you look carefully on my very 1st Pup I reshaped the cheek rest so I could get my face lower and use lower rings
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/guns/001-30.jpg) (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/NorthShoreLB/media/guns/001-30.jpg.html)
For me it's been a battle from day one, I really like the Idea of Pups but I think this is a limitation, so I'll step away from them and concentrate on folding or detachable stocks Carbines
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Still thinking about your situation Manny, would a red dot or 2x scope work for you? Airgunners get so caught up in tight groups when target shooting they use the scope as a spotting device instead of an aiming device.
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My problem is that if I zero at 25 and I have to take a 10 yards shot I'm over an inch low and at 45 I'm High, In my Hunting I got a lot going on I don't want to have to think about holdover or under, I want to get the crosshair on the spot and take the shot.
The great advantage of a PUP is been able to shoot from inside your car other than that not much.
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Well dang, I misunderstood all along. Lower the scope on a bullpup????
Holy jeez!!! I almost had to hold my Evanix 3D out about 8 inches to see though the scope it was so low. If anything, I need them raised.
That is what is drawing me toward the Bulldog, it seems to be a larger Bullpup. Seeing Manny holding the Benjamin renewed my interest in bullpups because it looks larger.
It is also the best looking Bullpup I have ever seen! I mean that too!
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For me the point of a BP is not to have the most compact shortest gun made that can be shot out of a Smart car but a platform that could absorb longer barrels with moderators without becoming 6ft long.
Tom
This. I like not having to sacrifice a moderator or long shroud for maneuverability. It makes a difference when hunting out of a treestand with a rail or a windowed ground blind. It also makes a difference to me in my preferred way of squirrel hunting in the deep woods. I prefer to sit on the ground and use a tall bipod to shoot up at a 45 degree angle or better. The bullpup makes this easier.
Bullpups are also easier for me to scope-cam my hunts with when the bullpup sports a long rail. The long rail lets me position my scope and attached camcorder to my liking.
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I see scope height only being a small issue under 40 yards with an airgun. We are always calculating holdover (nature of airgun ballistics) unless you only shoot a fixed distance and who does that?
Tom
Agreed.. High scope height has never been a issue for me.. I see it as an advantage for 20-60yd shots (AG).. No guessing, the trajectory rides the cross hairs virtually the whole spread of that distance..
Lets say, SOMEHOW You could see out of the barrel with your scope.. Well, Your first zero would be 0 yds, and Your second zero would be whatever You sight it in on.. If you sight in at 30yd, You would have serious hold under at short range, then switch to have immediate hold over for any range past 30yd.. You would not have a good long distance (20-60yd, Condor) of nearly zero hold over/under..
I think a respectable amount of scope height is necessary for AG, because of the loopy trajectory.. UNLESS You are shooting a known distance every time..
Yes 3" is a little high, but it sets up for a good AG hunting range..
I'm aware of scope cant, but just practice and don't scope cant..Why is it that Condor .257 are making the best groups I've ever seen at 200-300yd? Canting didn't stop that?
My old AR with an ACOG on top of the hand guard taught me otherwise on this issue.. Standard sights AR is 2.56" over bore alone alone.
JMO tho..
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200-300yd groups, where?
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200-300yd groups, where?
Quite a few out there.. Heck 300? Few are making 400 to a whooping 600yds with Condor .257.. Not tack driving at that range, but still saying something ..
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Ever since I made this Folding Carbine stock I've seen the light :) :)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/guns/DSCF1469_zpsibswj2id.jpg) (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/NorthShoreLB/media/guns/DSCF1469_zpsibswj2id.jpg.html)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/guns/DSCF1468_zps6bkxsgby.jpg) (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/NorthShoreLB/media/guns/DSCF1468_zps6bkxsgby.jpg.html)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/guns/DSCF1470_zpshwm7rlvj.jpg) (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/NorthShoreLB/media/guns/DSCF1470_zpshwm7rlvj.jpg.html)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/guns/DSCF1474_zps62fd4zci.jpg) (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/NorthShoreLB/media/guns/DSCF1474_zps62fd4zci.jpg.html)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/guns/DSCF1471_zpsx9haeaa8.jpg) (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/NorthShoreLB/media/guns/DSCF1471_zpsx9haeaa8.jpg.html)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/guns/DSCF1473_zpstaaroxge.jpg) (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/NorthShoreLB/media/guns/DSCF1473_zpstaaroxge.jpg.html)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/DSCF1501_zpsb2ij3a6j.jpg) (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/NorthShoreLB/media/DSCF1501_zpsb2ij3a6j.jpg.html)
I can slap it on all my rifles regardless of caliber, It's just as packable as a BullPup without all the drawbacks.
Once I've chosen what rifle to use for hunting just swap stocks and I'm good to go.
I have an other spare stock lying around so I'll get on that project and make an Other Folding stock too.
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200-300yd groups, where?
Photos!!!! Please.
Quite a few out there.. Heck 300? Few are making 400 to a whooping 600yds with Condor .257.. Not tack driving at that range, but still saying something ..
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200-300yd groups, where?
Photos!!!! Please.
Quite a few out there.. Heck 300? Few are making 400 to a whooping 600yds with Condor .257.. Not tack driving at that range, but still saying something ..
Here's one that I found just looking for couple min.. There are others..
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=92141.msg864641#msg864641 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=92141.msg864641#msg864641)
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Ever since I made this Folding Carbine stock I've seen the light :) :)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/guns/DSCF1469_zpsibswj2id.jpg) (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/NorthShoreLB/media/guns/DSCF1469_zpsibswj2id.jpg.html)
I can slap it on all my rifles regardless of caliber, It's just as packable as a BullPup without all the drawbacks.
Once I've chosen what rifle to use for hunting just swap stocks and I'm good to go.
I have an other spare stock lying around so I'll get on that project and make an Other Folding stock too.
Manny.. Is that a 'ACE' folding stock? The one with the two Allen bolts to attach??
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This is the one
http://www.amazon.com/JG-M4-Style-Airsoft-Tactical-Folding/dp/B00FRRJ4SU/ref=sr_1_27?ie=UTF8&qid=1436464053&sr=8-27&keywords=folding+butt+stocks (http://www.amazon.com/JG-M4-Style-Airsoft-Tactical-Folding/dp/B00FRRJ4SU/ref=sr_1_27?ie=UTF8&qid=1436464053&sr=8-27&keywords=folding+butt+stocks)
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Manny,
What is the forestock and pistol grip that you used ?
I'm soon going to have a Rainstorm, and very much prefer a pistol grip type stock.
any info appreciated
Thanks
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I used the pistol grip that comes with the Evanix Sniper and 3D series and I used a Magpul foregrip after I attached a Weaver rail on the stock
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Would you have any pics of how it all fitted, trimmed, modded and mounted ?
Maybe a build thread when you assembled it ?
I really like the way you did it, and the way it looks.
I don't really need a folding rear stock... A straight/rigid rear would work fine for me, but I suppose a folding rear would be no problem either.
Thanks for sharing all that you do.
Looking forward to seeing your hunt with the Slayer too.
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So Manny that is the original wood stock that has been chopped and bed linered? Pretty slick :)
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So Manny that is the original wood stock that has been chopped and bed linered? Pretty slick :)
Correct :) :)
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Would you have any pics of how it all fitted, trimmed, modded and mounted ?
Maybe a build thread when you assembled it ?
I really like the way you did it, and the way it looks.
I don't really need a folding rear stock... A straight/rigid rear would work fine for me, but I suppose a folding rear would be no problem either.
Thanks for sharing all that you do.
Looking forward to seeing your hunt with the Slayer too.
Couple of guys asked for a Build along on the Yellow, so I did post one there trying to explain the process as well as I could and posted close up pictures.
I'm bad using the research feature over there and can't remember the thread title,...bet if you ask about it over there someone will have it bookmarked and could bring it up.
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http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1433116483/Wanna+turn+your+Walnut+Rainstorm+stock+into+a+folding+tactical+stock+- (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1433116483/Wanna+turn+your+Walnut+Rainstorm+stock+into+a+folding+tactical+stock+-)
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Wow, that was quick, LOL
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Google LOL. Terms = yellow forum nomadic pirate folding stock rainstorm, first result.
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Man I'm so dumb with computers,..Caveman :) :)
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We all can't be perfect :)