GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: QVTom on June 25, 2015, 02:49:32 AM
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I've heard and read so many opinions, usually stated as facts, about what to do and not do to your airgun barrel. After shooting many thousands of rounds through several different barrels at velocities from 900 to 1050 fps over a one year period, I can say there is a lot of suspect information passed around. I've been guilty of repeating some fallacies too!
Common statements:
Never clean your barrel ever. The lead fills the pores and is necessary.
- Well the lead may fill some pores but barrels will get dirty if you use them and they need to be cleaned on a regular schedule. More on the schedule below.
Never clean your barrel until the accuracy falls off.
- Nothing ruins your day like a hours lost chasing poor accuracy. I've found that the accuracy can be just fine until it's not. The transition from good to bad happens very quickly. More importantly, once the barrel is leaded enough to ruin accuracy it will take some effort to thoroughly clean it. This is why it's best to clean your barrel at regular intervals.
Never use a nylon or bronze brush.
- This may be true for softer AG barrels from LW but any decent quality barrel will not be damaged by the reasonable use of a nylon or bronze brush. Many times the lead is stuck so tenaciously into the corners of the grooves that a patch will not reach into the sharp corners and remove stuck lead and crud.
Only use Goo-Be-Gone. It's friendly and doesn't harm the o-rings.
- you can scrub for hours with Goo-Be-Gone and similar friendly products using patches or brushes; these products don't remove lead. Believe me I tried them.
Never use bore cleaners or solvents intended for firearms. It will eat your o-rings and besides there is no powder residue in an airgun.
-Only real bore solvents will clear the lead from your barrel. I've used friendly products with patches and brushes in relatively clean barrels until the patches come out clean. When you look inside, there is still lead stuck to the barrel. Use a bore solvent like Shooter's Choice and the previously clean patch will come out absolutely black. A few strokes with a brush and a patch is all it takes to clean a badly leaded airgun barrel. You can scrub all day with a friendly cleaner and get nowhere or use a real bore cleaner and be finished in a few strokes. I have not seen any o-ring damage from Shooter's Choice so I can confidently say that that particular product is o-ring safe.
Airguns don't have the hot gas and they don't have the velocity to generate leading.
- maybe 12 fpe pellet shooters will not show leading with lots of use but our modern big bores certainly will and in a relatively short time. I've found that after about 400-500 rounds the barrel on the Slayer will start to lead up and the accuracy will degrade very quickly.
A quick summary:
Determine the best interval to clean your barrel. Don't wait until it stops performing, that just makes extra work because once the lead starts to stick it builds rapidly.
Don't be scared to use a real bore cleaner and a brush. The combination of the two will get the job done very quickly with very few strokes. A couple of stroke is not going to damage your barrel.
I hope you find this helpful.
Tom
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Tom, I agree with all you say above...........My .257 really will lead up the barrel badly.........I learned from a fellow Match .22 Rimfire competitor about Shooters Choice Lead Remover...........Patch wet, soak, brass brush and can't believe the BLACK CRUD that comes out of the barrel..........Brass is softer than a quality steel barrel and as you say, anything less than a stiff brush and the grooves will NOT GET CLEAN....Good informational post.........
I have competed with COPPER 50 BMG to F-Class and ARA rimfire matches and now lead AIR RIFLES and it is a rare rifle that a couple of wet patches will wipe bore clean...............Carl
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Tom, thanks for the post and info. I will check out the Shooters Choice solvent.
I'm still trying to get my 30 cal Edgun Matador converted into my cast slugs .257 cal, TJ's barrel, shooting slug gun. Things would be so much simpler for me if you would just offer your Slayer in a .257 cal! LOL!
I talked to Mike Sayers, the owner of TJ's, and he told me that he recommended using a stainless steel brush in his barrels. He claims that his chrome molly hammer forged barrels are far tougher than any stainless steel brush and that using a SS brush wouldn't ever hurt the barrel.
Who knew?
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+1 on everything Tom just said! I did lap my .257 an it helped a "LOT". But it really goes bad quickly.
when leading does appear. Accuracy will fall off very quickly once leading starts. The lapping changed this from 30 to 50 shots when a new barrel to well over 150 after lapped.
Now after literally thousands of shots downrange, it is getting several hundred shots before this happens. But when it does happen, it scatters from a 1/2" or slightly larger group at 100 yards to 2-3"yards instantly.
I tried the Nylon brushes, but they just didn't get it done. Just a few passes with a bronze brush and the job goes quick, and accuracy returns.
Will try shooters choice. Thanks Tom!
Howdy Tedd!!!. I miss read your email. You still want me to send the reg. to your addy.?
Mike
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Interesting post to this "small bore springer guy"! Even with .177 cal I do know that a dirty bore will affect accuracy and also have found that the accuracy goes from "good to bad" quickly, usually during a FT match or some other critical moment like squirrel hunting.........
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2532014/1410463633_1795709304_DirtyBore.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=57469)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2532014/1410463627_1225019586_CleanBore.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=57468)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
Now what I didn't know..........
1.I always thought that use of a cleaning rod with shallow airgun rifling in a choked barrel was a recipe for disaster over time due to the rod getting embedded microscopic grit and acting as a lap. I do remember years ago when the accuracy of my brother's .177 R9 "want away" and no amount of pulled patches would return the barrel to accurate shooting. Using a bore scope he found that leading had packed into the rifling just before the choke and the rifling literally disapperared from view. He then did a "one time only" Hoppes #9 and brass bore brush treatment similar to what you're suggesting and indeed the rifling was "excavated" and accuracy returned. Prior to that incident we were shooting unlubed hard lead Crosman Premier pellets so we started lubing our "springer pellets" to keep the pellet lead from "soldering itself" to the bore. While the lubing with Slick50OneLube didn't affect the velocity, fpe consistency or improve accuracy, it did make needed bore cleaning chores a simple matter of pulling through a few dry patches to restore lost accuracy. I've also taken on your "policy" of regularly pulling through a few dry patches (usually after each tin or box of pellets) rather than waiting for the accuracy to "go south".
2. Thanks for your info concerning the use of lead removing solvents in airguns. I've always kept the stiff away from my R9 bores like th e"airgun gods suggested" but it seems that you haven't experienced any "ill results" from using it. Actually, with a break barrel R9 there is little chance that any solvent will get into the "frammis" from bore cleaning but voodoo against using the stuff has indeed been persuasive!
3.I'm wondering if perhaps airgun wisdom from on high really isn't universal and such wisdom doesn't always "cross platforms" between large bore PCPs and small bore piston guns.........but I do realize that this "sand box" is for the benefit of large bore PCP shooters.
Anywhoo.......thanks for the thread!
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Velly intellesting, especially to this noob. Everything I've read says "Forget everything you know about cleaning powder burners, especially when it comes to cleaning AGs!" So, not wanting to ruin my barrel, O rings - or taking out 3 square city blocks from an explosion ::) I have heeded the advice.
While I'm not about to give my guns a Hoppes bath or run steel brushes down my barrels anytime soon, this post makes sense. a) Do you guys remove things like TKOs before cleaning and b) What care do you take when cleaning a gun with factory baffles? Sorry if questions are stupid, but I'm at the beginning of the learning curve.
Thanks!!
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This is why accuracy drops with dirty barrel, left pellet is pushed through dirty barrel - the right one through a cleaned one (.35 JSBs). The power was also down almost 20 fpe and I had to hammer that pellet through the dirty barrel using wooden stick.
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad47/abbababbaccc/leading_zpseee287ee.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/abbababbaccc/media/leading_zpseee287ee.jpg.html)
Tom, what's your take on using WD40 to aid in removing the lead?
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Good information arrived at from years of testing. As with many topics, results may vary. I agree with some of the information presented but I use what I personally believe and what has proven to work for me over the many years and large stable of airguns I own. I also subscribe to the information that was presented by two of the most respected airgun tuners that ever walked the planet. :)
Their shared knowledge along with my personal experience is what I use in maintaining my herd.
and yes, some misleading or exaggerated information has and always will be presented as fact on many topics.
No disrespect or discredit intended Tom. It's well thought out and proven information.
SAFE & Happy Shooting!!!!
Dave
8)
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Hello all,
Very interesting post on barrel cleaning. There are many different barrel cleaning procedures that air gunners use as posted on GTA. For someone who is new to the air gun community, the many different suggested methods for cleaning your air rifle barrel can be intimidating . . . so many things need to be considered . . . barrel composition, affect on O-rings, and chemicals used, brush types, my goodness it can get confusing for someone who has only cleaned original Civil War barrels in the past!
FredSG
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Sorry, that would sound as if this was a debate or argument, which I will not be drawn in to. The information I use for cleaning is here on the forum. As with many subjects, there is no hard and fast rule. There's enough presented here on our forum by Tom and others for our benefit. Take all warnings and suggestions into account and use what works for you. I'm comfortable with what I use and have had no accuracy issues related to excessive leading and have had absolutely zero deteriorated seals from use of products.
But of course I will admit, I do not send thousands of rounds down my barrels in a short time either. Like I said, use what works for you and your shooting habits. I greatly appreciate Tom's thoughtful post and sharing!!!
:)
One thing I would add is no mention of an initial bore cleaning. I DO subscribe to that considering you have no idea what residue is left in a barrel from the machining process. I do a thorough initial cleaning of all my airguns.
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Lot of great info! I keep it simple....everything that Tom stated, brass brush, solvent, and patches, every tin or tin in a half.
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Twice I cleaned the barrels of springers with Ballistol and ended up with an explosions (no harm happened to me, to anyone around me, or to my rifles). I think I removed the excess oils with dry patches but maybe some was left in the barrel. Is it the use of Ballistol that may have caused this explosion? How do you prevent such explosion when you clean a barrel?
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Twice I cleaned the barrels of springers with Ballistol and ended up with an explosions (no harm happened to me, to anyone around me, or to my rifles). I think I removed the excess oils with dry patches but maybe some was left in the barrel. Is it the use of Ballistol that may have caused this explosion? How do you prevent such explosion when you clean a barrel?
I clean mine with Ballistol and never had any detonations. But even a small amount around the breach area will detonate, so make sure not only clean the barrel dry, but also swab and dry the area around the breach. It happense when you push the wet patch into the breach and it squeezes some around
As far as cleaning goes, I clean my AGs regularly and then shoot 10 pellets to "season the bore". No schedule, just play it by ear, maybe once a week if I was actively shooting (would be about 500-1000 shots)
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Always have brushed & cleaned every few 100 pellets ... will continue ;)
Agree 100% with Toms statements 8) 8)
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Great post Tom ;) I would rather maintain my barrel than letting it get to the point where accuracy drops. Thats why I keep track of cleaning intervals on my rifles. I decrease shot count between cleaning gradually until I find a point where I'm staying ahead of accuracy problems.
Steve
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Tom, what's your take on using WD40 to aid in removing the lead?
i use it because MM and Mac1 uses it , i use it with a plastic brush , then come behind it with patches with rubbing alcohol .
if it's good enough for them ...............
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I am another that cleans on the regular.......bout every 2 tins.
I wanted to see how bad it got without cleaning regularly and this is what I found from an extremely accurate rifle.
5 targets at 30 yards.
I use a Crown Saver and Ballistol.
I don't wait anymore.
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Another example with a different rifle.
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I 100% agree with Tom,
No brass or nylon brush will hurt a barrel, if it does it must be made of play-doh. As far as Goo-gone goes, that is all it's for is washing off the Gooey maple pancake syrup from your sticky fingers and off the gun while you were eating.
Also a good high end barrel will foul out with lead, just not as often, but if it is nice and smooth inside it will be less likely to foul with lead as fast as a rough barrel, I think every barrel should and needs to be polished to a glass smooth finish, this way the bullet/pellet can slide down that bore like a greased sliding board.
If i think i have oil in my barrel I use a patch that has been dipped in the hottest soapy water and run it a few times and then a dry patch or two as well as a super thin coat of pure diver grease to ward off the elements until its next shooting. (you should shoot at-least one pellet just before the dry patch to blow out any excess water oil or solvent).
As well if you use a brush and you have an internal bolt probe O-ring you need to just remove it until finished cleaning just to be sure you don't cut it.
As for solvent or oil hurting O-rings, there should only be one O-ring that could possibly get anything on it and thats the bolt probe O-ring. If you manage to get oil or or solvent on any other O-rings, then you are doing something seriously wrong with your barrel cleaning!
William
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HaaHaa
You mean I can't eat pancakes during my shooting sessions?
Darn...
I don't think there are O-rings in all airguns. Solvents can affect breech seals too. Careful or not.
Tom has good info here. For certain airguns and certain usages. But use what works for you and your style.
I do and am happy with the results I have always gotten.
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What about Hoppe's #9 and a bronze brush?.... How will that work on lead, and will it eat the O-rings?....
Bob
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HaaHaa
You mean I can't eat pancakes during my shooting sessions?
Darn...
I don't think there are O-rings in all airguns. Solvents can affect breech seals too. Careful or not.
Tom has good info here. For certain airguns and certain usages. But use what works for you and your style.
I do and am happy with the results I have always gotten.
You right, but most do have O-rings. And as far as the pancakes nobody should go without the best meal of the day regardless of what time of day it is lol.
I agree on the doing what makes a person happy and what works for them, I have tried just about everything on the cleaning side of things, right or wrong it seems to work!
Now that I think about it, the maple syrup might just make a good bullet lube lol
William
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Now that I think about it, the maple syrup might just make a good bullet lube lol
William
Syrup and lead residue. To lick or not lick the fingers....that is the question.
:)
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Do nothing. When your air rifle starts to loose accuracy, box it up, send it to me and I'll "fix" it, charge you $50 plus shipping and handling, and send it back to you.
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What about Hoppe's #9 and a bronze brush?.... How will that work on lead, and will it eat the O-rings?....
Bob
Excellent Question Bob, ... I do believe it is safe on O'rings,
Straight from Hoppe's Web site..
"No. 9 Synthetic Blend Bore Cleaner
Hoppe’s No. 9 Synthetic Blend Bore Cleaner is especially designed for the modern firearm and is built on the great tradition started by Frank Hoppe in 1903.
Superior removal of carbon, lead, and copper fouling
Safe on anodized aluminum, titanium, steel, chrome, nickel, plastic, polycarbonate and rubber
Same great traditional Hoppe’s 9 smell
Biodegradable / Non-flammable"
http://www.hoppes.com/bore-cleaners/no-9-ultimate-synthetic-bore-cleaner (http://www.hoppes.com/bore-cleaners/no-9-ultimate-synthetic-bore-cleaner)
William
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Now that I think about it, the maple syrup might just make a good bullet lube lol
William
Syrup and lead residue. To lick or not lick the fingers....that is the question.
:)
Thanks for the laugh, not sure why but I can just see myself sitting on the shooting bench and fingers heading toward my mouth lol
William
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interesting read and topic! I clean my air rifles fairly regularly. The ones that shoot great continue to do so...the ones that are just OK are still just OK. So I guess the moral of the story in my case is, routine cleaning has kept them shooting the way I expect them to shoot. Waiting till accuracy goes out the window is waiting too long for a cleaning.
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Ok here's my addition to cleaning. First I think the quality of the gun makes a difference in how one would clean it. The cheap Crosman and Gamo barrels will be more jagged and leave more lead bits behind. A hard metal brush could scratch them up but not a nylon one. I don't own any of the higher end guns but you would think the quality of the steel and machining would be way better. That means less leading. I believe power levels have a hand in this too. I noticed my 600fps guns did not seem to get as dirty as fast as my 800fps gun and I shoot the slower guns more. IMO the faster harder hitting guns push the skirts deeper into the grooves allowing more lead to be deposited into the pores. One of the best things I have done was use J-B Bore Bright in all my guns and now they stay clean a lot longer. I can just use a few patches with Goo Gone and they are clean. I stay away from chemicals that could harm orings. If you use to much of a cleaner on a PCP/CO2 style gun it could also get down into the valve and eat away at the poppit.
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One of the best things I have done was use J-B Bore Bright in all my guns and now they stay clean a lot longer.
^X2....
I lap a new barrel at least 100 strokes with J-B Bore Paste and then finish up with Bore-Bright.... Further polishings with Bore Brite (10-20 strokes) after cleaning just make it better and better, increasing the time between cleanings....
Bob
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Fire lapping the Crosman barrels with auto rubbing compound is my Sch-tick-
Schtik?
;)
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It's small wonder that there is confusion about cleaning air gun barrels. For years some dealers and their spokesmen (e.g. Straight Shooters, and Airguns of Arizona, among others) have recommended airgunners avoid using metal brushes, while others (e.g. Pyramyd) have said bronze brushes are okay to use on steel barrels. Some of these eschew the use of bore solvents as they are said to be harmful to seals and orings.
To further muddy the waters, 10 meter match airgun shooters seem surprisingly less fastidious about barrel cleaning, rarely cleaning them or removing lead and using felt pellets or possibly even patches when they do clean them. Apparently they never, ever use bore solvents, and when they do use something to restore life to a troubled bore they may use something like VFG Bore Cleaning Compound (see http://www.waffenpflege.de/en/products-cleaners/accessories/bore-cleaning-compound.html (http://www.waffenpflege.de/en/products-cleaners/accessories/bore-cleaning-compound.html)). It must be kept in mind that 10m air rifles and pistols are relatively low powered airguns and so may respond best to a different cleaning regimen than high powered guns.
Adding to the confusion, it is not common to hear of airgunners across the pond (in the U.K. and in Europe) using anything other than a pull through with patches and their cleaner/lubricant of choice (e.g. Napier Air Gun Oil, Ballistol). The consensus there seems to be that a coating of lead in the bore is desirable for accuracy. In fact reading threads about cleaning from U.K. airgun forums leads to the conclusion that many U.K. airgunners rarely clean the barrels of their air rifles. Of course, it must be remembered that the vast majority of our friends on the other side of the Atlantic shoot air rifles that don't exceed 12 fpe (that's about 800 fps with an 8.44 grain JSB Exact .177 pellet) and thus they may have different cleaning needs.
In the New World, we don't labor under the same power restrictions as U.K. shooters with a 12 foot pound energy limit or 10m match shooters (who simply don't need much power for accurate shooting). Canadians who may be limited to sub-500 fps probably don't need to worry too much about frequent bore cleaning. Perhaps cleaning requirements for full powered air rifles are more rigorous and demanding. Maybe they do call for the removal of leading from the bore and brushing the barrel with bronze brushes and bore cleaning solvents.
In any case, it might be well to bear in mind that different airguns have different cleaning requirements. High power air rifles may well need a different cleaning regimen than airguns that produce lower velocities.
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One of the best things I have done was use J-B Bore Bright in all my guns and now they stay clean a lot longer.
^X2....
I lap a new barrel at least 100 strokes with J-B Bore Paste and then finish up with Bore-Bright.... Further polishings with Bore Brite (10-20 strokes) after cleaning just make it better and better, increasing the time between cleanings....
Bob
Bob, do you apply the J-B bore paste to a patch and pull it through, or do you have a mop that you go back and forth?
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Well said grauhanen , very well said . After many thousands of pellets thru my .22 Crosman Nitro Venom accuracy went away. Every thing I tried didn't work and the grouping kept getting larger . At the point of removing the scope and junking it , and thinking I had nothing to lose , I disregarded every thing I read on this and other airgun forums . I pushed a bronze brush thru five or six times . This was followed with a few tight plain cloth patches . Now accuracy is back and better than ever. -------Good Shooting to you my friend-------John--AKA- Papa Smurf
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do you apply the J-B bore paste to a patch and pull it through, or do you have a mop that you go back and forth?
Dan,
See these two excellent threads for more information, in particular the guidance offered by Motorhead and SeanMP:
J-B bore paste (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=64525)
Deburring riflings - JB Bore Paste (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=47627)
The short answer is you want to go back and forth, working from the breech end, polishing progressively less as you near the muzzle. A smoothly rotating ball bearing cleaning rod is needed so the polishing action follows the rifling.
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Thank you Jason.
I was thinking I had JB bore paste..I was wrong, I have Iosso bore cleaner paste on hand. Something else I'll have to get and try!
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I use the VFG cleaning pellets of the appropriate caliber, on a mandrel that screws into a standard 8-32 cleaning rod, and lap from the breech.... There are two mandrels, the larger for .30 cal. and up.... and they are long enough to use two pellets at once, which is what I do.... On a new barrel, I use the method suggested by Sean Pero, which is 100 strokes full length, being careful not to run the pellets right out the muzzle on every stroke (it happens occaisionally. which is OK).... I replace the Bore Paste every 20 strokes.... I then reduce the stroke about 1" for every 4 strokes, so for a 25" barrel the breech gets a total of 200 strokes, but the muzzle only the initial 100, with more strokes the closer you get to the breech.... Sean says this produces a very slight taper to the bore.... I then clean out all the grit, swab it with a couple of patches of solvent, then dry it, and switch over to the Bore Bright for the final 20 strokes, which leaves it gleaming smooth....
I now prep all my new barrels this way, regardless of brand, caliber, or projectile.... I think it not only makes them more accurate, but it takes longer for them to foul.... When I see leading (which usually shows up near the muzzle first) I swab out the barrel with Hoppe's #9, dry it, and then give it 20 strokes or so with Bore Bright, which puts that shine back on it.... Sean says that lead builds up in micro scratches in the bore, and eventually it goes longer, sometimes much longer, between cleans.... Whether the lead fills the scratches or you just eventually polish them all out with the Bore Bright I don't know, but the cleaning intervals do seem to increase over time.... I shoot almost all my guns in the mid 900s, so haven't noticed any difference in how they lead relative to velocity, but it makes sense that the faster you shoot, the quicker they will foul up....
Bob
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Interesting to see this post today. Before I ever saw it, I decided, yesterday to truly clean the barrel on my Theoben Crusader .20 cal in preparation for doing some testing on head-sized 20 cal pellets for my brother. The Theoben is 7-8 years old, has never been cleaned, and still shoots accurately, by the way. But it doesn't get "heavy" use. I suspect, conservatively that it has maybe 2000-3000 round down the bore.
For those who don't regularly shoot and clean powder burners, there has been a big shift in the world of gun cleaning solvents in very recent years. There are a number of new products out there that are water based rather than petroleum based, and a number of new "synthetic" CPL (cleans. lubricates, protects) all-in-one products.
I have recently purchased several to try and gone throng my collection, doing some very thorough cleaning, with good results. I have settled in on two products that seem to do a very good job with the added benefit that they don't drive my wife crazy with "that awful smell". These are M-Pro 7 cleaner (http://www.mpro7.com (http://www.mpro7.com)) and Slip 2000 EWL (https://www.slip2000.com/slip2000_ewl.php (https://www.slip2000.com/slip2000_ewl.php)). There are many others out there -- FrogLube, BreakFree CLP, etc.
Pulled out my old Beeman cleaning kit, a cable pull through with both a small (1-inch long), bronze .177 and .22 brush that could be screwed into one end and a fixed, slotted patch puller on the other end. Hmmm, so Beeman sells bronze brushes to clean Beeman air rifles -- Who knew?
Anyhow, I took a plastic coated 177 Dewey rod with a .177 wool bore mop, sprayed the bore and soaked the mop with M-Pro7, let it set about 5 minutes, then pulled first the .177 brush (useless, too small) and then the .22 brush which didn't seem overly tight) through from breech to muzzle 3 times. Then I mopped the bore again and let it set another 5-10 minutes. Then I began pulling dry patches till they came out clean. Then, I put several drops of Slip2000 EWL on a patch, pulled it through, let it set over night, and pulled a couple of dry patches through. None of this resulted in much visible lead or grime being removed from the barrel, though.
I test-fired 2 Beeman FTS 11.2 gr pellets over the ProChronograph, clocking at 747 and 751 fps, or about 14 FPE for the gas ram air rifle. Then I set the Theoben aside and sorted some pre-weighed Beeman FTS pellets to test today.
Here is the email I sent my brother late last night (early this morning, actually) regarding my plans for today's pellet testing:
____
Jerry:
Too beat to blog tonite. Cleaned the barrel of the Theoben Crusader .20 cal tonite with M-Pro 7, a mop on a .177 rod, and pull through brush and patches patches on a Beeman cable cleaner. Shot a couple of rounds through to see if there would be any hint of dieseling after cleaning with a non-petrolium based cleaner. As expected, none. Two Beeman FTS .20 pellets out of a weighed partial tin of Beeman FTS pellets marked 11.18gr (weighed on a Gem Pro 50 digital scale) crossed the ProChronograph at 747 and 751 FPS, so that’s 14 Ft-Lb out of a gas ram .20 ga air rifle.
Decided I’d sort the rest of the partial tin of pellets for head size:
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/P1010870.jpg)
The first 50 pellets had what looked to be a bi-modal head size distribution. Wondered if they might be from two different manufacturing dies. Remembered your comments about a fellow who used a Dremel grinder bit, hand held, to take the edge off his pellet gage. Looked at that and decided I’d try, instead, just using a felt tip Dremel polishing buff and some Flitz metal polish to make sure that there wasn’t a burr on the 5.07 mm aperture. After polishing the gage, I sorted the remainder of the pellets.
Notice also that I took the plastic bezel of the pellet gage and interposed it between the steel gage and the protective plastic aperture to make a “stand off” that would guide the pellets, centered, into the gage when I dropped them. This resulted, IMO, in a much more reproducible go/no go measurement. The problem of then getting the pellet to drop back out of the gage once the head passed through was pretty easily solved by using a Q-tip to guide the skirt end of the pellet back out of the gage. Pretty quick way to do it, actually.
I then sized the next 50 or so pellets (I confess I haven’t yet counted) through the polished gage. No tendency to measure the pellet head size, overall, as “smaller” after polishing the apertures, and no change in the apparent bi-modal head size distribution.
The test pellets will be the 5.06 mm and 5.08 mm pellets, all of uniform 11.18 gr weight. Testing, over the chronometer for uniform velocity, for 5-shot group size will have to wait for a while. I feel very confident that I got good sizing results and that the sized/weighed pellets should perform well, compared to 5-shot groups from un-weighed, un-sized 5-shot groups from the same lot (I have two sleves of these pellets from the same lot, most unopened).
I should stop to count so the data will be compelte . . .
First group, un-polished pellet gage, size (mm) - weight (grains), n=49
5.05 - 3
5.06 - 19
5.07 - 5
5.08 - 12
5.09 - 10
Second group, polished pellet gage, size (mm) - weight (grains), n=53
5.05 - 1
5.06 - 18
5.07 - 4
5.08 - 19
5.09 - 10
5.10 - 1
So, it looks like I have 102 x 11.18 gr test pellets with 3 dominant groups:
37@ 5.06 mm
31 @ 5.08 mm
20 @ 5.09 mm
Uniform weight didn’t predict uniform head size.
More later.
_____
The story continues . . .
This morning, I decided to shoot some groups for accuracy, comparing pellets straight from an un-operned tin of Beeman FTS with the weight/head size sorted pellets from the same lot (I have two sleeves of these pellets as old as the air riflle). Set up on my back yard bench at 30 yards around 9 am (already hot here in Columbia, SC) and pulled out a tin of unweighed, un-sized FTS .20 cal pellets to begin testing. I was shooting the Theoben Crusader off a front rest and rear bag.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/P1010875.jpg)
I haven't shot this rifle for groups in a while, and confess that the last few years, powder burners have dominated my target shooting, to the extent I actually get to do any target shooting. I don't shoot on a regular basis. The first 2 shots were way high, 3 inches over the target. I re-zeroed the scope accordingly, by putting the rifle back on the rest and moving the scope adjustment UP until the cross hairs had moved from the center of the top/left bull to the approximate POI of the first two pellets. I was then certainly pleased to see all 10 of the next 10 shots inside the target ring, with 9/10 tearing a single ragged hole and the 10th a definite flyer in the 2-ring, just barely cutting the 3-ring, at 4:00. Not to shabby, huh? Left target. Black bulls are 1 inch (these are 10-Meter targets).
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/somethingwrong.jpg)
Things then rapidly went down hill from there. Only 9 of the next 10 shots hit the paper -- two are in the center target's outer rings, 6 sort of group in the top/right target with only one in the bull, and one is at the edge of the paper to the right of the lower/right target!!! Something's very wrong. Checked the scope mounts - solid, not moving. No obvious drift of the scope in the rings. Tried 10 JSB Exact .20's at the lower/left bull. Only 5 hit the paper.
Here ended this AM's shooting session. Took the Theoben inside, checked all the action screws and scope mount screws for tightness. The foreshock screws were, perhaps, about 1/4 to 1/2 turn "loose" in that I could tighten them a bit. All the rest were solid and tight. Lunch and errands with the wife took me through until about 2:30 PM, when I returned to the bench and started shooting JSB's at the right hand target at 30 yards. Shot maybe 50-60 rounds. Couldn't get any to group better than 2 inches. It *may* be that I need to re-season the barrel with some lead build up, or it may be that the Hawk AirMax has crapped out. Don't know yet. Mayhap I will swap out the scope and see what happens tomorrow morning before it gets too hot to shoot.
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Tom, which Shooter's Choice product? I noticed there is a bore cleaner and a lead solvent. Thanks
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I suspect you were asking the other Tom, but for what it's worth, I've used the Shooter's Choice lead solvent for some time, with good results, on rim fire pistols and rifles. It's also a staple of many rimfire bench rest shooters, in my limited experience. If shooting lead bullets, like 22 rimfire or cast lead bullets in larger calibers, then there is no need for a copper solvent. The lead solvents work best when used with bronze brushes.
On the other hand, if shooting copper clad rifle bullets, then I really like Butch's Bore Shine. The downside of any cleaner that includes copper solvent is that if used with a bronze brush, or even a nylon brush with a bronze core, then the copper solvent tends to dissolve the bronze, too, as it is a copper alloy.
As for protecting the seal, if in doubt about a solvent, then a dab of silicone grease covering the seal will protect it. You can find it in dive shops or on amazon.com - http://www.amazon.com/Trident-Silicone-Grease-Jar/dp/B00V2G2BWQ (http://www.amazon.com/Trident-Silicone-Grease-Jar/dp/B00V2G2BWQ)) -- Just wipe off the excess after you finish.
What actually needs cleaning from the bore of springers and gas ram air guns, and I suspect much less so with PCP's, is the tar-like residue that accumulates from minute amounts of lubricant on the back side of the piston seal that, with each stroke, make their way from the wall of the compression chamber into the compression chamber gas. When the piston fully compresses the air, it superheats the compressed air and burns the lubricant, dieseling, but in a very limited (and normal) way.
The thing I usually worry about the most, when "seriously cleaning" rifles with an array of chemical solvents cleaners and lubricants is getting something on the coated optics of a good scope. If you don't have good scope covers, and don't want to dismount the scope for every cleaning, then you can buy non-lubricated custom latex scope covers in the family planning section of any drug store.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/P1000954.jpg)
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Be careful “mixing and matching” your cleaning products!!
Although most are safe when used alone, not all of them are compatible with each other.
Certain combinations of cleaning/preservation products will actually remove bluing and cause pitting in steel barrels.
(Not to mention the funk that will grow on aluminum or copper based parts.)
Keep the ‘families’ together – I.E. - Hoppes/Hoppes, Outers/Outers, Iosso/Iosso and Butches/ Butches.
Cheers,
Smoketown
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There is a lot of good information here so I may have missed the answer to a question I have. If you have a gun like a TX200 in .177 cal and wanted to use a nylon brush to clean it before the patches do you push it through from the end of the barrel? I bought a cleaning kit with a fiber rod that swivels, a nylon brush, patches and pellets when I bought my break barrel several years ago. I purchased a pull cord when I bought my TX200 back in Feb. So far all I have done to my TX200 is pulls some patches through it to clean it. If it has to be pulled through how do you attach a brush to the pull cord? I have cleaned many 22 an up guns but reading this thread it seems pellet guns are different when it comes to cleaning them. Thanks in advance from the new boy on the block.
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There is a lot of good information here so I may have missed the answer to a question I have. If you have a gun like a TX200 in .177 cal and wanted to use a nylon brush to clean it before the patches do you push it through from the end of the barrel? I bought a cleaning kit with a fiber rod that swivels, a nylon brush, patches and pellets when I bought my break barrel several years ago. I purchased a pull cord when I bought my TX200 back in Feb. So far all I have done to my TX200 is pulls some patches through it to clean it. If it has to be pulled through how do you attach a brush to the pull cord? I have cleaned many 22 an up guns but reading this thread it seems pellet guns are different when it comes to cleaning them. Thanks in advance from the new boy on the block.
Which pull cord did you buy? Pull through cleaners for .177 are typically pretty simple. The patchworm, for example ---
http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=PWA17R (http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=PWA17R)
(http://www.champchoice.com/IMAGES_PRODUCT/PWA17R_LG.JPG)
is used by just sticking the end you pull from through a patch and sliding it down to the "knob" on the business end. Plastic cords can be trimmed with a pen knife to sharpen them, if need be. Or use any sharp pointed tool (small nail, for example) to pierce the patch if needed. Apply your cleaner through the patch. Feed the end without the patch through the breech to the muzzle, take a wrap around 2-3 fingers, then pull straight out the muzzle.
The Beeman cleaning kit --- https://www.pyramydair.com/product/otis-flex-cleaning-kit-177-22-cal?a=1013 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/otis-flex-cleaning-kit-177-22-cal?a=1013)
(https://www.pyramydair.com/images/acc/Otis-Flex-Cleaning-Kit.jpg)
has a slotted jag on one end, to secure patches, and a threaded brass female fitting on the opposite end, which can secure a small or large bronze brush, a "T-Bar" or apparently a "J-hook" to assist with pulling patches.
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IMHO...the issue with airgun rifling vs powder burner rifling is that face the airgun barrels have very shallow rifling (compared to PBs) and many airgun barrels are choked at the muzzle to guarantee that the smallest bore restriction is at the muzzle just before the pellet is released.
For years I've used a simple Crown Saver to pull patches through my R9 bores. I personally resist both cleaning rods and brushes for my R9 bore unless absolutely necessary due to concerns of "wearing away" of rifling at the choke area of my bore. Also, decades ago when using nylon monofiliment fishing lines with hard chrome plated stainless steel fishing rod guides I would be replacing the guides every couple years due to the monofiliment actually wearing grooves through the hard chrome plating and into the stainless steel. When a rod & brush is REQUIRED (very seldom) I'm more comfortable using a bronze brush that doesn't embed grit than a nylon brush which will embed grit just like the monofiliment fishing line I used decades before and even wear through hard chrome rod guide plating.
Anywhoo.......for years I've used a simple Crown Saver and pulled patches to clean my bores. I used to only clean my bores when accuracy fell off due to concerns of wearing away shallow rifling lands but as mentioned here by others, I've been doing "preventative maintenance" for the last couple years by pulling through patches for each box or tin of pellets before noticing an accuracy degrade.
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3 to 5 patches of Prolix with 2 dry pathes will remove all pellet residue from an airgun barrel. Prolix is safe, non-abrasive, non-acidic and biodegradable. The only negative I found is it takes about 30 pellets for accuracy to completely return in both my PCP's.
I posted this review on Prolix: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=91145.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=91145.0)
Link to a you-tube review of Prolix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVVCKQnxqDo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVVCKQnxqDo)
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got a question for those commenting about stuff embedding in a nylon brush and damaging a airgun barrel .....
seems to me if the brush is only used in a airgun the only things it will come in contact with is the metal barrel of the airgun , the lead in the barrel and the cleaning solution used . i'm assuming (i know) the nylon brush won't pull metal off the barrel to embed in its bristles to possibly damage the barrel ...... and that lead possibly embedded in the bristles is too soft to hurt the barrel .... and that goo gone , wd-40 , or what ever cleaning solution won't embed in the nylon bristles to damage the barrel ..............
so ............ what can get embedded in the nylon brush to damage airgun barrels ?
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Jeff, I think you hit on an important distinction. There is a low probability that your nylon brush will pick up "grit" if you are conscientious in both its use and storage. Just bear in mind that whatever microscopic grit happens to get embedded from time to time, it is pretty much additive for the life of the brush. Some of it will abrade away with use, of course, but for the most part once it's in there, it's in there. Carefully cleaning the brush with a solvent won't flush out the grit.
Most of the admonitions about don't use X to clean your airgun barrel get repeated because not everyone is mindful of the little nuances. You are different ;D
But having said that, the way I look at it is only clean as aggressively as necessary to get the job done. That's why I choose not to use brushes. A properly maintained barrel doesn't need them in my experience. WD40 or Kroil on tight-fitting cotton T-shirt patches pulled through the barrel will peel off lead flakes like the skin from a banana. If however the barrel has been neglected, I wouldn't hesitate to use a nylon or brass brush for an initial deep cleaning.
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i only use the brush (with wd-40) for the initial cleaning on a new barrel , then patches with wd-40 followed by patches with rubbing alcohol to clean out the wd-40 residue . if i neglected a barrel for a long time and it got bad i'd use the brush , but i dont do that . the reason i use wd-40 is because of TimmyMacs and MM's comments about how effectively it cleans lead (like you mentioned) and that they use it . i spray the brush with a few shots of wd-40 and use a paper towel/cloth to wipe and dry it off then store it alone in a little pill bottle .
thanks NT ;)
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I'm a retired engineer and I worked for Westinghouse Electric, Nuclear Systems in Newington, NH. I worked with Scotty, who was a mechanical engineer. Long story short, Scotty now works for Ruger at their pine tree casting plant in NH. He deals alot with other manufacturers including LW. Where did you get the idea that LW barrels were soft? I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just asking where your information comes from. Thanks
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LW barrels for airguns are extremely soft. I've learned this fist hand by machining enough of them to know. Also, ask them about the alloy and condition and their response is always they are not heat treated and the details are proprietary.
Tom
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Does any one know the Rockwell hardness, or what steel that they use?
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Baxter, there was a thread titled Is the steel used in air rifles really "soft" (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=84697.0) posted back in March. I recall one guy measured at least a couple of barrels but I don't remember if any was a LW.
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Yeah I just wanted to know for personal info, I guess that I can take one into work tomorrow and measure it...
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I've found nothing as soft as a LW. I don't have a clue why, we all know that full soft steels are a PITA to work and take much more effort to produce a decent finish. At on time I was told by LW that they could heat treat their airgun barrels for a charge but when I asked about the charge they never responded.
Tom
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Barrel Materials
The materials used at Lothar Walther fall into two categories. The normal steel barrels, those which require bluing are made from LW19, a chrome-molybdenum type steel. The stainless steels, which do not require bluing are LW6, which is used mainly for .22l.r. and similar cartridges and LW50 which is used for centerfire cartridges. This last material was developed in 1994-95 as a safe alternative to 416R and to solve durability problems associated with 416R. LW50 can be used in all calibers and all contours.
The only thing which has not changed much in all these eighty years is the basic process. A bar of steel has to be cut, drilled, reamed, rifled, turned and lapped. In some cases the order has changed. In all cases, the processes have been refined.
Today, what has changed is how each operation is done. Computers oversee everything. Skilled and trained operators monitor everything. Yet, where necessary, hand craftsmanship can be employed to create a special product. The outcome of this technological advancement is that quality is ultra high yet pricing is reasonable.
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LW19
http://www.tool-die-steels.com/Grades/Stainless-Steels-Special-Steel/31/5685/LW19.html (http://www.tool-die-steels.com/Grades/Stainless-Steels-Special-Steel/31/5685/LW19.html)
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That's nice but their AG barrels are not the same as their PB barrels. Talk to LW and try for someone other than Woody W. if you dare!
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LW50
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-128881.html (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-128881.html)
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Im just going down the line as to all the materials that they use. One of them have to be for airguns Im guessing. My best guess is that they use the LW50
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Baxter, I truly hope you can find out. I've been through this with them and was told that the airgun barrels are not made from bar but from tube and they would not tell me what type of tube is used. I work with a lot of CM and I can tell you that their airgun tube is not CM. It's some type of low carbon steel.
Tom
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yes Im just trying to find out cause Im in the process of getting a barrel made to spec's from Bartlein and just trying to find what LW barrels are, just for my own info. Seems strange that they will not tell exactly what they use...unless they are ashamed?
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LOL, that was my thought too. The CM or 416 SS from Bartlien will both make excellent barrels. I'd go SS due to it's ability to mirror finish. Either will have superior mechanical properties compared to a LW AG barrel.
Tom
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LW barrels for airguns are extremely soft. I've learned this fist hand by machining enough of them to know. Also, ask them about the alloy and condition and their response is always they are not heat treated and the details are proprietary.
Tom
i know the .22 LW airgun barrel i cut took more effort than a .22 crosman discovery barrel . i'm sure the german steel airgun barrels are harder than crosmans barrels .... so i guess it depends on what brand of airgun barrel you're comparing it to ....
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LOL, that was my thought too. The CM or 416 SS from Bartlien will both make excellent barrels. I'd go SS due to it's ability to mirror finish. Either will have superior mechanical properties compared to a LW AG barrel.
Tom
Tom I have never ordered a barrel before, so I gave them the same spec's as the LW barrels as far as twist bore, groove depth, and such for .25cal do you know of a better spec that I could try?,
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response:
Baxter,
The standard airgun barrels are made from special carbon steel material. It is pretty tough. LW 50 is a stainless used in centerfire barrels.
Woody Woodall
From: Airgun Hunter Extreme Channel [mailto:hatsanextremehunter@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 12:39 AM
To: lotharwalther@mindspring.com
Subject: airgun barrels
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I'll throw in one more variable, that would be very difficult to measure (but matters, I would think)...no matter what type steel is used in the making of a barrel, the creation of rifling will work harden the surface of the bore. It doesn't matter if button rifled, forged, whatever, it will harden the surface at the very least.
If only a few thousandths of the surface of the bore is hardened, it will provide substantial strength and durability of the bore. Measuring the hardness of the steel of the barrel itself, will not reveal the true hardness of the bore.
There is a lot of science at play, metallurgy is a pretty complicated science. Variables that effect surface hardness are (but not limited to): metal type and it's content, method of rifling, speed of rifling, method of cooling and lubrication, etc.
I do understand that even if the bore surface is hardened, it can be wrecked with poor cleaning habits.
Dan
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here is my final Q&A
Me: Oh the main question can it be cleaned with a brass brush?
answer:
It can be.
Woody Woodall
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Ive been cleaning the LGV with goo gone and nylon brush followed by dry patches for near a year now. Well yesterday I popped over to Cabelas and picked up some Shooters Choice and a bronze brush in 177. Cleaned once following the instructions and took it out back to see if there was any improvement in the accuracy which steadily had been going south after 4000 pellets or so. Set up at 40 yards,shot 5 on a cold gun and Good Golly Miss Molly put 5 under a dime. Thanks Tom I have my gun back and I am sold. You are the man 😀
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I'd like to say thanks to all that replied and contributed to this thread. I was a bit nervous when DEz moved it from the Big bore gate the airgun Gate thinking I'd be accused of claiming the earth isn't flat.
My intent was to share what I've experienced with some of the accepted cleaning processes typically discussed. I used to use many of those practices and now have find them ineffective. I'm not suggesting that anyone abandon what works for them but I believe the performance of the typical AG has increased over the years resulting in more fouling of the bore than previously thought or experienced. This is very evident with a high performance big bore that is pushing a lot a bullet contact area at speeds up to 1050 fps.
I've used both the Shooters Choice Super formula which is a general purpose and the lead formula. Both have produced excellent results. I'd think the lead formula is all an Airgunner needs but I have both from my PB days.
Common sense is always your best tool. These products are very effective and very little is needed. Although I've seen no o-ring issues I'd be careful not to let solvents run into your valves or compression chambers where they will do a fine job of removing the lubricants. If you are nutty like me, you may want to remove your barrel altogether for a serious cleaning session.
Tom
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If a barrel is leaded up enough to effect accuracy I bet you can feel it if you push a pellet/boolit thru the bore... especially down at 20fpe with pellets where I am...
My 1985 Daisy 953 started getting a bit off and goo gone did the trick and it was right back to its old self... so I do think even at low fps there is buildup especially on choked barrels... it just does not weld/stick as strongly as the heavy high fps rifles do...
also I will do everything I can to baby a brass barrel...
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I'd like to say thanks to all that replied and contributed to this thread. I was a bit nervous when DEz moved it from the Big bore gate the airgun Gate thinking I'd be accused of claiming the earth isn't flat.
Tom
And thank you for making this post Tom. I have learned much.
Dan
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Here is what I meant by the VFG pellets and mandrel (adapter) that I use with J-B Bore Paste and Bore Bright....
http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/patches-mops/cleaning-pellets/weapons-care-system-pellets-prod13839.aspx (http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/patches-mops/cleaning-pellets/weapons-care-system-pellets-prod13839.aspx)
Bob
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Sorry for bringing the topic back, but is there any risk of damaging the breech/transferport seal with the brush? How should i clean the barrel then? Is there any sign that you've pushed the cleaning rod far enough to scratch the seal? So should i push the rod only up to the length of transferport/breech seal? Obviously im talking about PCP rifle. Maybe i got the PCP construction wrong, and there's no risk actually?
I heard some barrels are made from bronze or brass? I assume that brass/bronze cleaning tip would damage the brass/bronze barrel? Which material has higher hardness? Brass or Bronze? I have SPA PR900W/Diana Stormrider, does it have brass/bronze barrel?
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I believe that is where the "don't use brushes" came from .. Older barrel were brass or lined with it..
1. I use Hoppe's ELITE FOAMING GUN CLEANER and a brush and it works well..
2. Kroil cleaning..
Lastly I use Frog Lube correctly...
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I believe that is where the "don't use brushes" came from .. Older barrel were brass or lined with it..
1. I use Hoppe's ELITE FOAMING GUN CLEANER and a brush and it works well..
2. Kroil cleaning..
Lastly I use Frog Lube correctly...
Do you brush all the way through -that you can see brush sticking out of breech/loading port?
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I have red once about a guy that shot every now and then, in between cleaning his bores, some of those copper pellets and that seemed to help as well.
Thoughts ?
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I remove the barrel and brush from the breech.. Once I am past the chamber if there is a internal o ring I mark the rod with tape once past it.. Then a few strokes to the muzzle and back to the tape so you don't scrub the o ring.. I have my rifle vise with the barrel muzzle against the wall ..
That way the brush doesn't exit the muzzle
If no o ring yes the chamber gets a few stroke but since is a looser tolerance not much lead there..
Now I am done with regular air guns and selling the 2 I have.. I have now turned my attention to the .30 Impact I have on the way
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If you use a new bronze brush of the correct size for caliber, trying to reverse the brush before it passes all the way through the barrel will take a lot of force. Some are concerned that the brush could damage the barrel due to the very high pressure on the bristle tips, as the bristles "flip over" on stroke reversal.
I understand the concern about pushing the brush past the muzzle, and then drawing the brush back in over the crown. However, if the brush does not make it past the muzzle, how is the muzzle being cleaned?
If you are really concerned about the crown, the "right" thing to do it to fully exit the muzzle, then unscrew the brush on every stroke...
The above assumes cleaning from the breech. On many PCPs this is not possible, unless you remove the barrel completely. That is not something one wants to do on a regular basis. I think this is another reason why airgun barrel cleaning is deemed "no brush" territory: Because people use pull throughs and can't get a long brush into the barrel from the breech.
Cleaning from the muzzle with a rod is considered bad. It certainly has the potential to wear away the lands at the crown. I think it is a matter of what your options are, and what immediate problem you are trying to solve. Imagine if you had to strip down and reassemble your vehicle's engine every time you refueled it :)
Bottom line: Use the least aggressive cleaning method you can get away with to prevent accuracy destroying metal fouling. All airguns and all projectiles are not the same. Figure out what your's requires and use that. For instance, even mid-power springers can foul their barrels badly, if you shoot high antimony lead pellets. The ideal is that very projectile scrubs off and carries out as much dirt as it lays down. This seems more likely when shooting pure lead projectiles. Even slugs at 1050 FPS.
The "rules" and expectations may differ for .22 caliber slugs, compared to .45 (for example). Other than the surface finish of the bore, the projectile fit in the barrel may be a factor. The larger bores seem to work better with a projectile diameter matching groove diameter, or a few 0.0001" larger than groove diameter. This, while the smaller bore seem to work better with slightly undersize slugs, compared to groove diameter. If the slug does not contact the barrel groove diameter, it can't wipe off any lead onto it. Rifling land height and profile seems to matter too. Then there is the question of the choke; if any...
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Peter,
Your Stormrider barrel bore may be rough from the factory. If it fouls quickly and is hard to clean; or simply looks dull, then it may benefit from being lapped with JB bore compound. I have a Dragonfly (pumper version of Stormrider) that had a very rough bore. I "fire lapped" it to smooth it out. This resulted in a 26% increase in power. The thread link below explains how.
If you use this method, I strongly advise you not to overdo it, for reasons explained in the thread: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=155047.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=155047.0)
A more focused and controlled barrel improvement thread can be found here:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130555 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130555)
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I won't clean my rifles unless absolutely needed. I always do when they arrive, however.
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So, I'm guessing acid wash and sand blasting is out of the question... 8)
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Great thread.
If you use a new bronze brush of the correct size for caliber, trying to reverse the brush before it passes all the way through the barrel will take a lot of force. Some are concerned that the brush could damage the barrel due to the very high pressure on the bristle tips, as the bristles "flip over" on stroke reversal.\
Speaking of bronze brushes, I'm trying to place an order now, but no one seems to make a brush specifically for .25 cal.
The typical choices are either .243 / 6mm or .264 / 6.5mm. So which would be better?
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Same for mops: If I'm going to pull my barrel, and buy/use a swiveling rod system, then I'd rather use a screw-on mop than those PITA pull cloth patch thingies. But I only see them in "264 caliber" and larger. Will that work?
And what about using a jag? Are these also cleaning devices, that you put cloth patches on? I don't understand them.
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Last: Ballistol, Shooters Choice, Wd40, etc. It seems that's the one area where everyone still "disagrees." I've been using Ballistol. I see Kroil bore cleaning solvent online where I'm ordering the other stuff. . Is that worth trying?
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Allan,
A .243 / 6 mm caliber bronze brush is actually larger than that diameter. When you push the brush through the barrel, the bristles have to bend backwards to allow passage though the barrel. A .243 caliber brush will still scrub a .25 barrel.
A 6.5 mm brush will take a lot more force to push through a .25 barrel. One could argue that it would be "more effective"; or work faster. It is also very likely to get stuck, should you try to reverse the direction you are brushing, before completely allowing the brush to exit.
For lead fouling in an airgun barrel, I think a .243 brush will work in a .25. Avoiding the brush getting stuck should not be difficult with the barrel removed from the action.
Kroil is a penetrating oil. It gets under fouling more effectively than other oils, but all oils wet metals and will work better as cleaner than water, for example. WD 40 is actually a pretty good cleaner. It also works as a tapping fluid for aluminum. It is not a good lubricant for a mechanism, but that does not matter when you are using it to clean.
There are many types and ways to hold patches for bore cleaning. Some people swear by them. Others swear at them :) The ones that make sense to me don't drop patches in the barrel. Less of a concern, if each patch is passed through the barrel in one steady motion, and then "stripped off" at the muzzle, when reversing the rod. The type of felt pellet, patch or mop that is used to "polish" barrels must be securely retained.
If the bearings on your cleaning rod spin freely, the patch or brush should not unscrew due to following the rifling.
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Peter,
To answer your direct question; if you clean your Stormrider barrel from the muzzle using a bronze brush, some bristles will have to "flip over" as you start pulling the rod out from the muzzle. This is due to the brush being longer than the magazine cut in the receiver.
Bristles in contact with the breech O-ring are likely to penetrant the O-ring when they "flip over". So, if you must use a bronze brush to clean you Stormrider barrel then you stop short of the O-ring; or remove the barrel from the action first.
Cleaning from the muzzle is frowned upon, although there are many firearms where where that is the only way to clean the barrel with a rod. Vigorous scrubbing is less likely to be required with a low powered airgun shooting pellets, hence the popularity of "pull-throughs".
What I said yesterday about lapping your Stormrider barrel is only going to make sense, if it fouls rapidly to the point of shooting poorly; and is hard to clean by means of pull-throughs (such as the patch worm). I don't think my barrel roughness is typical. But, deburring the breech and transfer port with these air rifles to make them load smoothly, apparently is quite common. Lead shaved off from pellets by a rough chamber and TP tends to make these rifles not shoot to their full potential. Hence my link to that barrel tuning thread.
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I posted this a year ago or more in another thread, but it answers a question I asked myself when this thread was new.... I asked if Hoppe's #9 affected O-rings, and after soaking regular Buna-N O-rings in it overnight, I can tell you that it does NOT.... There was a very slight swelling (maybe 0.001" in CS) after hours of soaking, but once dried and left to sit for a short time, they were dimensionally right back where they should be, and back to their original hardness as well, from what I could determine.... and no long term affects....
Bob
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Thx, Bob. I'll try some Hobbes.
Still thinking about jags, which I guess are just dinguses to push cleaning patches. What do you guys think of this "rifled" jag?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wSk-3c70jw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wSk-3c70jw)
I assume you need an exact fit, so there may not be a .25 option anyway, but it's an interesting idea.
Maybe too aggressive for the light rifling found in pcp barrels?
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What do you guys think of this "rifled" jag?
I assume you need an exact fit
Yes; an exact fit with the same land and groove diameters, width and rifling pitch - when used with a patch of an exact size and thickness. As this exactness is not going to happen, it is marketing nonsense. Not better than a tight fit where the patch conforms to the rifling in the barrel you are trying to clean.
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I posted this a year ago or more in another thread, but it answers a question I asked myself when this thread was new.... I asked if Hoppe's #9 affected O-rings, and after soaking regular Buna-N O-rings in it overnight, I can tell you that it does NOT.... There was a very slight swelling (maybe 0.001" in CS) after hours of soaking, but once dried and left to sit for a short time, they were dimensionally right back where they should be, and back to their original hardness as well, from what I could determine.... and no long term affects....
Bob
Hummm....I did exac5tly the same thing years ago after my brother needed to use Hoppes #9 and a brass brush to clear the "CPL lead fouling" from his .177 R9 bore. Here was the result for a factory HW breech seal and a couple Viton orings........
(https://i.imgur.com/mLYWzc6.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/JUvJaeW.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/Viz8ahM.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/92wCbgm.jpg)
Over the years I've learned that there are a few "springer taboos" that are accepted as fact that are simply "wishful thinking".
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Just a addition to this thread.. I your barrel is not easy to remove, clean it upside down so the cleaner of choice does not get into the valve..
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I read this thread with interest, as I have heard such differing opinions from different sources. The consensus here is clearly to clean, rather aggressively and often. I have a fixed-barrel springer (Tech Force) with about 2500 pellets through it that shoots pretty good and hasn't really changed. I have run a couple of dry patches through it once. It consistently shoots about 2" groups at 45 yds, which I think may be my limit, eyesight-wise. I have a nitro piston break-barrel (Crosman) with about 1000 through it that has never gotten much better than 3.5" groups on a good day. That one recently blew the ram, and I just replaced it and the piston seal - shoots the same so far. Thinking about thoroughly cleaning them both.
But what do you all think of this video from American Airgunner, where all three of the panel experts say they never, or very rarely clean their bores? Only maybe when they're new, or there is a problem. They say that air guns are largely self-cleaning. Rossi Morreale, Tom Gaylord, Jim Chapman, and Rick Eutsler.
I think we would all agree that air guns don't shoot as well until they get leaded up a bit. So, what do you think?
https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=tARdYsUfdp8 (remove space)
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The consensus here is clearly to clean, rather aggressively and often.
I must have missed that consensus. I thought is was to clean when groups open up. Or better yet, shortly before that number of shots will have been fired. So, by experience; clean every 100, 200 or 500 shots. Or never, if the groups never open up or throw fliers, with a given airgun and given ammo.
As it takes a number of shots for groups to settle down after cleaning, why clean when not required?
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I clean inspect polish wax when new, rarely need any cleaning, unless accuracy falls off and it is not the tin of pellets fault etc..
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I think that an important part of the process of barrel cleaning is to find a method in which you have confidence, and one that works for you. I've taken a lot of advice from threads like this and have developed my own process that works for me.
And the initial cleaning before I shoot a new barrel is different from the maintenance cleaning, for me.
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I believe that is where the "don't use brushes" came from .. Older barrel were brass or lined with it..
1. I use Hoppe's ELITE FOAMING GUN CLEANER and a brush and it works well..
2. Kroil cleaning..
Lastly I use Frog Lube correctly...
Ray, are you using both the Froglube cleaners and the lubes? Which cleaners, solvent or SD, and which lubes paste or extreme?
I've been using the paste as lube and protector. I was using Ballistol but switched to FrogLube after reading a lubricity report that tested many products commonly used for firearms, which ranked FrogLube as one the most slippery.
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Never heard of FrogLube… I’m intrigued~
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Never heard of FrogLube… I’m intrigued~
This brand is made in the USA and cheap as well:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1014746351?pid=178538 (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1014746351?pid=178538)
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1014748587?pid=761842 (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1014748587?pid=761842)
Read it in a rimfire forum, so I put it in my cart ;D
The reviews appear to be stellar!
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Were any frogs harmed in the making of frog lube ??
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I very RARELY clean my barrels, and so far, in ten years, I have never had accuracy issues. I am not saying I won't in the future, and am not saying the OP is incorrect, but my own experience over ten years doesn't bear it out.
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I very RARELY clean my barrels, and so far, in ten years, I have never had accuracy issues. I am not saying I won't in the future, and am not saying the OP is incorrect, but my own experience over ten years doesn't bear it out.
After I’d seen Lt. Dan’s results and there after, my own, I always thoroughly clean a new gun before I start shooting them. I won’t clean them again, ever, I don’t think unless accuracy falls off, which I’ve only done to one or two of mine. So far, I only use Ballistol and JB Bore Paste.
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I very RARELY clean my barrels, and so far, in ten years, I have never had accuracy issues. I am not saying I won't in the future, and am not saying the OP is incorrect, but my own experience over ten years doesn't bear it out.
Whenever my accuracy "goes south" and there isn't a "scope issue" (or whatever) a bore clean has ofter solved the issue. Here's some "before and after bore cleaning" targets with HW springers..........
(https://i.imgur.com/nauCLe1.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/t7myvjG.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/9CVD7jn.jpg)