GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: TXSlayer on June 20, 2015, 04:11:20 AM
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Today I received a Benjamin "varmint power pack" on store pickup at cabelas. I opened it up to find that the scope was all five flavors of fubarred, no problem, leupold low caliber scope to the rescue. Once I had calibrated the scope, I tried some target plinking with different types of pellets to try to find which one it liked, no luck. It wouldn't hold a 2 inch group at 10 yards. About half an hour of trying different settings ond the Leupold, and tedious shooting, the breach seal gave out. Maybe I got a lemon, maybe this model of rifle is bad, either way I returned it for a refund.
I was wondering if I could get some recommendations from you experienced airgunners on rifles with the following specs.
-.22
-Gas Piston
-some sort of noise dampener
-cost<=$200
Thank you guys, and I hope my experience with the Benjamin was helpful, as there were little to no bits of info on the web that don't come from the companies trying to sell it.
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Welcome to the GTA Leif.
I'm going to shoot you my generic response to this question. It's a little bettersweet however. First of all... I'm not sure why you require a gas ram because you didn't say but if it's just because of things you read or heard...... well, anyhow.... My recommendation would be a fully tuned XS-25 in .22 from Mike Mellick at Fliying Dragon Air Rifles for right at your $200 budget. Mike is a member/vendor here at the GTA and if you do a search on him or visit the Flying Dragon gate you find his work and integrity impecable. That's the sweet.
Here's the bitter...
I just responded to a post from Mike that reports that he will be out of his shop for the next 2 weeks helping out his good friends at Pyramid Air with some backlog.
Good Luck
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Benjamin Regal NP- pretty stock
Crosman nitro Venom- weaver scope rail
Crosman Genesis NP- weaver rail. PA and AGD not in stock
Hatsan 95 Vortex- different features
All $199 or less.
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I don't think you will find a good shooting rifle with your given specs. I know it is $100 over your budget but go order an HW95 from AoA right now for $299, have a rifle that will last generations, and never look back.
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To fit your specs I would say Benjamin Trail Nitro Piston 2.
Just over $200, comes with an ok optic, acceptable trigger, nitro piston, shrouded for noise reduction.
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Not sure of the specs of your Leupold scope. But if a scope is not spring or gas piston rated it may not hold out.
Also any new airgun may need a good barrel cleaning. Most come with some kind of coating for corrosion protection. Some airguns need time to break in. May need to shoot a few hundred pellets to lead the barrel and get better accuracy. Out of the box in your price range any airgun may need a bit of tuning. Both ends of the barrel may need attention crown and lead. Compression tube may need deburring and new seals because of metal shaving left in the tube. Even higher priced rifle are not lubed right.
If you are serious about shooting airguns there is a lot to learn IMO and good place to learn and ask more questions the right hear on the GTA.
Also spring and gas piston rifles have a learning curve to get through because of the double recoil. Even if you got the best spring type airgun you may need a lot of practice to shoot well.
Bottom line is that any airgun for $200 may be luck of the draw and may need no, a little or a lot work to shoot well no matter which one you choose. GL
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To fit your specs I would say Benjamin Trail Nitro Piston 2.
Just over $200, comes with an ok optic, acceptable trigger, nitro piston, shrouded for noise reduction.
If this is your choice you might want to check out this link.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/738128/benjamin-trail-nitro-piston-2-air-rifle-with-3-9x-32mm-scope-and-free-1911-bb-pistol-and-22-caliber-pellets-tin-of-175?cm_vc=ProductFinding (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/738128/benjamin-trail-nitro-piston-2-air-rifle-with-3-9x-32mm-scope-and-free-1911-bb-pistol-and-22-caliber-pellets-tin-of-175?cm_vc=ProductFinding)
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The HW95 that Brazos mentioned is a great recommendation if you can swing it.
At the $200 price point, however, you would be hard pressed to beat an XS-46U from Mike at Flying Dragon. I picked up one from him with the gas ram conversion a couple of years ago. It would do better than 1/2" groups at 25 yards with the artillery hold, and produced about 22fpe in .22cal so it's a hard hitter. If you search this model on the Chinese forum, you'll see lots of positive experiences, a far better ratio than I have seen with Benjamin springers.
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Leif, welcome to the GTA - sit down, take your shoes off and stick around a spell ;D
I saw from another post you have a Daisy 880, they can be VERY accurate and powerful enough for small game pesting. Why a gas ram?
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The Umarex Octane:
http://www.airgundepot.com/umarex-octane-air-rifle.html (http://www.airgundepot.com/umarex-octane-air-rifle.html)
http://www.amazon.com/Umarex-2251304-Octane-ReAxis-22-Caliber/dp/B00AU6ED8Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1434819606&sr=8-1&keywords=umarex+octane (http://www.amazon.com/Umarex-2251304-Octane-ReAxis-22-Caliber/dp/B00AU6ED8Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1434819606&sr=8-1&keywords=umarex+octane)
It has a lot of bang for the buck. In .22 it is around 26-28 FPE and comes with a pretty decent airgun rated 3-9X40AO scope. The downside is that it is pretty long and heavy. Accuracy is good once you get accustomed to the heavy trigger pull. It hits hard and is the quietest magnum gas ram springer I've encountered. Also has a 3 year Mfg warranty.
Lots of choices out there, take your time and do the research...happy hunting!
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Welcome to the GTA Leif.
I'm going to shoot you my generic response to this ::)question. It's a little bettersweet however. First of all... I'm not sure why you require a gas ram because you didn't say but if it's just because of things you read or heard...... well, anyhow.... My recommendation would be a fully tuned XS-25 in .22 from Mike Mellick at Fliying Dragon Air Rifles for right at your $200 budget. Mike is a member/vendor here at the GTA and if you do a search on him or visit the Flying Dragon gate you find his work and integrity impecable. That's the sweet.
Here's the bitter...
I just responded to a post from Mike that reports that he will be out of his shop for the next 2 weeks helping out his good friends at Pyramid Air with some backlog.
Good Luck
Leif, welcome to the GTA - sit down, take your shoes off and stick around a spell ;D
I saw from another post you have a Daisy 880, they can be VERY accurate and powerful enough for small game pesting. Why a gas ram?
I've heard that gas ram rifles with some sort of noise dampener can be dead quiet. I need this because I do pest control jobs on some of my landlord's other properties, some of which are in town where I can't exactly fire off a .22LRBenjamin Regal NP- pretty stock
Crosman nitro Venom- weaver scope rail
Crosman Genesis NP- weaver rail. PA and AGD not in stock
Hatsan 95 Vortex- different features
All $199 or less.
The HW95 that Brazos mentioned is a great recommendation if you can swing it.
At the $200 price point, however, you would be hard pressed to beat an XS-46U from Mike at Flying Dragon. I picked up one from him with the gas ram conversion a couple of years ago. It would do better than 1/2" groups at 25 yards with the artillery hold, and produced about 22fpe in .22cal so it's a hard hitter. If you search this model on the Chinese forum, you'll see lots of positive experiences, a far better ratio than I have seen with Benjamin springers.
Looking into these, thanks guys
[Edit]My local wally world has ruger yukons for $190, thinking either that or the flying Dragon
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The Ruger Yukon is very similar to the Octane (from the same factory) but with a bit less FPE/power. It does have a nice wood stock if that is an issue for you. The bundled scope is a lower spec unit compared to the Octane, and has a one year warranty vs 3 years on the Octane.
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I've heard that gas ram rifles with some sort of noise dampener can be dead quiet. I need this because I do pest control jobs on some of my landlord's other properties, some of which are in town where I can't exactly fire off a .22LR
From what I believe I've been reading from the group, differences between spring and gas ram seem minimally concerned with noise. Others should certainly be willing to chime in (hint)...
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Thank you guys. I think that unless I see something out shopping that fits my bill, I'm going to save up till next month and buy the HW95 that Brazos was talking about.
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The Varmint Power Pack is a Trail with a different stock. One of the better guns Crosman/Benjamin makes. It just needs a little tweaking.
And LOTS of practice. Mine didn't start shooting anywhere near decent 'til about 2 hundred down the barrel.
As for another gun, try the NP2 .22 caliber. You can get it for around $200 at Academy. The only noise is the piston (not much) and the pellet striking. Mine averages 1" or so at 40 yards.
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I've heard that gas ram rifles with some sort of noise dampener can be dead quiet. I need this because I do pest control jobs on some of my landlord's other properties, some of which are in town where I can't exactly fire off a .22LR
From what I believe I've been reading from the group, differences between spring and gas ram seem minimally concerned with noise. Others should certainly be willing to chime in (hint)...
Yep. You're spot on. The gas ram may be a teeny bit quieter when cocking... I don't think that's what you meant. Yes, save your money and buy a good rifle. Someday when I feel like admitting to the world how stupid I was, I'll tell the story of how I managed to buy a Walther LGU and only spend a grand to get it...well, that's not entirely true. Both my boys have airguns now courtesy of good old Dad.
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95 is a fine gun. Shot a friend's at a fun shoot. It's not gas ram and that AoA model you pay shpg.
NP2's are $260-330.
FD doesn't gas ram 46's any longer
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You will be glad if you hold out for the HW95. They are normally a little over $400. $299 is unheard of for that rifle. It the best deal in air rifles right now. I hate to see you spend $200 for borderline junk when for $300 you can get the best. Very high quality, great barrel, great blueing, and a match quality adjustable trigger. They are honestly a good deal at ther normal $400+ price. There is plenty of info on the HW95 (same rifle as the Beeman R9) so fire up your search engine.
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If i was buying a brand new rifle today ..... The HW 95 from AoA is the one I would get. A little more than you want to spend but, if you take good care of it. It will hold the $300.00 value for many years to come. No brainer!
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German guns are good guns. I got one. But buying a $200 or less gun doesn't make it a dumb purchase. Just means you shoot today until you can afford something better. If you can afford $300 and shipping and a scope a 95 or RWS 34 is a good buy.
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Welcome to the GTA Leif.
I'm going to shoot you my generic response to this question. It's a little bettersweet however. First of all... I'm not sure why you require a gas ram because you didn't say but if it's just because of things you read or heard...... well, anyhow.... My recommendation would be a fully tuned XS-25 in .22 from Mike Mellick at Fliying Dragon Air Rifles for right at your $200 budget. Mike is a member/vendor here at the GTA and if you do a search on him or visit the Flying Dragon gate you find his work and integrity impecable. That's the sweet.
Here's the bitter...
I just responded to a post from Mike that reports that he will be out of his shop for the next 2 weeks helping out his good friends at Pyramid Air with some backlog.
Good Luck
Mike at Flying Dragon is the way to go for under $300.00. I am not fond of break barrels. Just a personal preference. I purchased the XS46U full tune in .22 from Mike, along with his Rex scope. Under $300.00 for the package and it's a great setup. It is louder than my Hatsan PCP, but that has a moderator. Talk to Mike, you won't regret it.
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Quote: I've heard that gas ram rifles with some sort of noise dampener can be dead quiet. I need this because I do pest control jobs on some of my landlord's other properties, some of which are in town where I can't exactly fire off a .22LR
This statement just changed my response.....
Under the back seat of my truck in a vintage leather gun bag lives one of my $100 '50's Crosman 140s I purposely didn't do all the cosmetic restoration on this gun. The bluing is about 75% and the wood could stand a good sanding and refinish. But it has a fresh MAC1 kit in it and it shoots better than the day it was new. This is the gun I now recommend for you to use for the purpose mentioned above for the reasons below...
The closest thing I have to a $400 gun is my Vorteked Diana 34 Panther and I'm not dragging it around to shoot critters on someone else's property. Especially because pass thru will be an issue in close, in town range. I'm pretty sure my 140 truck gun has been drug around a few times already in it's life and I think it likes it. But more importantly.... I can control noise and power at will with variable pumps. And I asure you, my little 140 is dead eye accurate. Oh... and it's a classic.
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I'm going to hold out for a more expensive rifle.
Just curious, if gas ram don't do much for sound, what gives it an advantage over spring piston? Marketing gimmick?
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Just curious, if gas ram don't do much for sound, what gives it an advantage over spring piston?
The ability to leave it cocked without degrading it. With that said, the concern about springs taking a set is often considerably overstated. People have run tests and leaving a springer cocked a couple of hours while on a hunt is no big deal.
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The majority of the NP hype...is just that...Hype. The "leaving springers cocked hurts" myth, has been explained ad nauseum. I like NP theory, but feel that it's better days are a few years away, for mass production air rifles.
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The only real world advantages to a gas spring are no "twang" and no twist from the spring uncoiling. As far as accuracy or longevity, there is no difference.
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I believe the gas ram, at least in the cheaper big box store rifles, is all hype. The Chinese can make them cheap and the marketing departments can advertise them as the greatest thing in air rifles with the hopes people will think their current spring rifle is obsolete. Theorben (sp?) gas piston rifles on the other hand are nice rifles but they are expensive. A quality spring rifle, the HW95 for example, will shoot really well. The nice thing about a quality spring rifle is there are good aftermarket springs and spring kits. You can easily repair or improve them yourself. Though I pushed the HW95 another fine rifle is the RWS34. Those can be had for $250-$300 depending on model. I typically recommend the 34 (along with many others) as the best alternative to a $200ish box store rifle. With the HW95 being so cheap right now I have to recomend it over the 34. It's just a nicer rifle. When I first got serious into air rifles back around 2003-2004 they cost a little more than $300. I don't know how long the AoA HW95 sale will last but if you ever wanted one this is the time.
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I have an Umarex Octane with a .25 cal barrel with no moderator. It is easily my quietest gun but none of them have been tuned. It is also the most challenging to shoot even after trigger mods.
Check for other members in your area. If you can find some close to you, I'm sure they would be proud to show you some different guns.
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The "leaving springers cocked hurts" myth, has been explained ad nauseum. I like NP theory, but feel that it's better days are a few years away, for mass production air rifles.
I've often wondered about the same thing. As my screen name suggests, I dabble with old cars. I've resurrected old cars that have been parked for 20-30 years and the valve springs are still within spec. When an engine is shut off, a good portion of the valve springs are left in the fully compressed condition, yet don't seem to suffer from this state after many years. Are AG springs that much more sensitive to remaining compressed for extended periods?.....just askin'.
Re the original question, I bought a used, mint condition tuned .22 Diana 48 for $250, and will receive this week an HW95 in .22 on the AOA sale for $329 shipped. Can't comment yet on the HW95, but I see a BIG difference in quality, accuracy and trigger precision between the Diana 48 and the dozen or so lesser AG's I've owned.
As they say, "Do it once and do it right" if you are in a position to do so.
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Any quality spring will suffer more damage by "exercising" it...rather than resting it compressed. Same as valve springs. Valve springs are not that heavy for the job they have to do. Their job is to seat the valve and keep cam follower assy from "floating" at high rpm...keeping it in contact with the cam lobe...without excessive force / wear to them.
Yeah...it is a marketing myth.
Heck...if you scored a 48 in mint condition that's properly tuned...for $250. You got a goodeal ;)
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This is surprisingly good news. Even though both my "springers" are gas ram, its nice to know that one could keep them cocked (though it would be dangerous to do so with children, etc.).
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This never gets mentioned about Gas Rams, so I'll give you all something to chew on....
Leaving any Gas pressurized cylinder compressed makes great amounts of CONSTANT stress on the SEALS within the cylinder. It's always better to leave them in a "neutral" or "un-powered", position if left innoperative for longer than a hour period. This is common practice in machine design, to extend the life of the seals in industrial pneumatic or hydraulic cylinders. The same goes with NP pistons...the seal is their weak link. The term "NP" ram is just a marketing term for what you have on your car that holds the hood or the tailgate up, same cylinder. They are spotty and the seals fail to the point they won't perform at all when it turns cold outside. It's all NP hype.
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Everytime I read about this subject I can't help thinking about all the springers with up to 2" of preload on a spring. I know it's not in the full cocked positon but still.......
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Everytime I read about this subject I can't help thinking about all the springers with up to 2" of preload on a spring. I know it's not in the full cocked positon but still.......
Fear Not my Freind...
Springs need the preload to hold everything in place,,,while they are in the Horizontal position. You wouldn't need all of this if the spring was Vertical and didn't get "jostled" around by us guys, running around with them LOL. This goes into the designer's thinking.
As far as the 2" figure... Once a new spring has been compressed the first time, it will take a "Set", so natually it's gonna be shorter. Again,... it's nothing to be concerned about in a well designed spring powerplant.
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Don't forget the gas springs that hold up your hood or trunk lid. They stay fully compressed for weeks or months without leaking. Also, magazines that stay loaded for long periods without losing anything! I know that any thing can break, but odds are your favor of that not happening!
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Springs and seals are considered the perishables of spingers.
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Heck...if you scored a 48 in mint condition that's properly tuned...for $250. You got a goodeal ;)
Yes, very pleased with the purchase. I've gone through several Chinese, Spanish and Turkish guns and while they are a good value and a few were "winners", there is an obvious difference in quality, accuracy and I assume in longevity. I'd advise anyone looking at $200 "big box" rifles to save up a few more dollars and get into something like the Diana 34 or HW95.
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Don't forget the gas springs that hold up your hood or trunk lid. They stay fully compressed for weeks or months without leaking. Also, magazines that stay loaded for long periods without losing anything! I know that any thing can break, but odds are your favor of that not happening!
Do you mean the "Coiled Springs" that held up your Hood or Trunk Lid for years and years? I agree to that, and made a previous post about Mfrs replacing them w/ Gas Pistons. I will take the Coil spring all day long for jobs like this all day long. Maybe a mistype, or maybe not. I will take the history of the device, everytime. But like I posted before...
I think the NP piston has much merit. The problem is quality and attn to making a dedicated NP piston for the specific situation that air rifles demand. I hope this for the future. I am sure that Air Rifle buyers will pay a few extra bucks,... for a better NP piston design and powerplant. Piston Slam tolerances is another issue w/ NP designs.
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Here's another new German AG that the OP might consider:
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/walther-terrus-breakbarrel-air-rifle-black?m=3653 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/walther-terrus-breakbarrel-air-rifle-black?m=3653)
Seems to be getting good reviews and at $229 looks to be a good value. Personally I like wood stocks, but for pest control under all weather conditions the synthetic stock might make sense.
On edit, I see it is offered in wood also:
http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/WaltherTerrus.html#TerrusW (http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/WaltherTerrus.html#TerrusW)
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Don't forget the gas springs that hold up your hood or trunk lid. They stay fully compressed for weeks or months without leaking. Also, magazines that stay loaded for long periods without losing anything! I know that any thing can break, but odds are your favor of that not happening!
True, but I've had to replace many gas pistons used on hoods, trunks and hatchbacks on cars from the 80's and 90's. Never had a broken or worn out steel spring serving the same applications on cars from the 40's and 50's.
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I think that was a mis-type. The rest of the post shows the advantages of the coil spring. We both posted on this.... :D
I think we all agree that a well bearing and lubricated (spinning freely at coiling and uncoiling), the metallic coil spring steel spring is a very good and dependable powerplant for an air rifle. It's a Historic proven ;)
For the Air Rifle Newbies... If the "NP" design was so good...You would see Premier Mfrs use them. They Don't.
Again... I think the "NP" has a place in the air rifle future. Once it's dedicated to an air rifle only, design.
This "Plug&Play" design concept (by Crosman), has been a failure for new buyers of air rifles and scopes. Buy a rifle and scope, and hope it all lasts... Ask folks that packed up rifles for "Warranty" issues... That Shipping sure isn't FREE,
The future is in front of us for the "NP" concept. I hope they get it all together...in the USA. HELLO Crosman! ;)
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The only real world advantages to a gas spring are no "twang" and no twist from the spring uncoiling. As far as accuracy or longevity, there is no difference.
Those are huge advantages. It takes a tune kit or fitted guides, polished spring ends, and proper lube to get these characteristics from a coil spring rifle. It's pretty cool that rammers come like that out of the box.
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The only real world advantages to a gas spring are no "twang" and no twist from the spring uncoiling. As far as accuracy or longevity, there is no difference.
Those are huge advantages. It takes a tune kit or fitted guides, polished spring ends, and proper lube to get these characteristics from a coil spring rifle. It's pretty cool that rammers come like that out of the box.
No it doesn't. That's a newbie myth. A More important issue "Out of the Box", would be the rifle trigger. Read my previous post about destroying scopes and "PlugNplay" designs that Crosman has used for a few years now. The Marketing Hype has been dispelled from the start, and I think the 5 year history speaks for itself. Again...I think that the NP concept has a bright future,,,once the designers and marketing people get together and decide to make a quality NP powerplant Air Rifle. But again...springs don't "Require" all what you say....categorically.
If a guy decides to tune his powerplant that is an Option. Not a set in stone requirement. If the gun has a cruddy trigger...a tune won't fix that lol ;)
Besides...there are many posts here on the GTA of poor fitting and poor performance "Outta the Box", for the NP rifles. A $200 rifle is naturally gonna be Rough, in fit and finish...that's why its so cheap! No matter the Powerplant. Look at the cost of a Quality USA made spring and (2) washers... versus the imported NP. Lube is also Cheap in volume. It's all a matter of Marketing opinions and their thoughts on increasing the small cost of making the fitting correctly,,,same thing with cheap powderburners.
The NP hype is just that... Again..I hope that these folks will add costs and do it right.
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The only real world advantages to a gas spring are no "twang" and no twist from the spring uncoiling. As far as accuracy or longevity, there is no difference.
Those are huge advantages. It takes a tune kit or fitted guides, polished spring ends, and proper lube to get these characteristics from a coil spring rifle. It's pretty cool that rammers come like that out of the box.
No it doesn't. That's a newbie myth. A More important issue "Out of the Box", would be the rifle trigger. Read my previous post about destroying scopes and "PlugNplay" designs that Crosman has used for a few years now. The Marketing Hype has been dispelled from the start, and I think the 5 year history speaks for itself. Again...I think that the NP concept has a bright future,,,once the designers and marketing people get together and decide to make a quality NP powerplant Air Rifle. But again...springs don't "Require" all what you say....categorically.
If a guy decides to tune his powerplant that is an Option. Not a set in stone requirement. If the gun has a cruddy trigger...a tune won't fix that lol ;)
Besides...there are many posts here on the GTA of poor fitting and poor performance "Outta the Box", for the NP rifles. A $200 rifle is naturally gonna be Rough, in fit and finish...that's why its so cheap! No matter the Powerplant. Look at the cost of a Quality USA made spring and (2) washers... versus the imported NP. Lube is also Cheap in volume. It's all a matter of Marketing opinions and their thoughts on increasing the small cost of making the fitting correctly,,,same thing with cheap powderburners.
The NP hype is just that... Again..I hope that these folks will add costs and do it right.
I was speaking specifically about the difference in shot cycle, and that difference is not a newbie myth. Twang just feels cheap to me and detracts from the pleasure I get out of shooting air rifles.
However, I understand your point that a ram in a junky rifle doesn't fix a poor trigger, accuracy issues, or other deficiencies.