GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Kavin2845 on June 17, 2015, 08:32:25 PM
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Ive heard people telling me to avoid using springers b/c their like really hard to use and not for beginners, is that true? also whats the difference between a gas ram and a springer? anyone better than the other?
as you can probably tell im new to all this, so take it easy lol!
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Springers BAD?
Not at all! Enjoy the challenge. I personally think that springers are the perfect choice for beginners. Low cost entry to self contained shooting.
If after shooting a while you like the sport, and can afford to spend copious quantities of hard cash, then the alternative PCP options may be for you.
As for spring versus gas ram; I personally find the gas rams easier to shoot and easier to work on. But, they are essentially the same guns, working on similar principles. The pneumatics (CO2, MSP and PCP) are fundamentally different.
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Welcome Kavin!
Do not believe everything you read and buy yourself a RWS Diana 34 .177 cal. ;)
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Welcome to the forum!!
If you can shoot a springer well, you can shoot any airgun well.
Yes, springers are trickier than a PCP or a multipump gun. Some are very hold sensitive, others are not.
But they are a lot more fun.
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Welcome Kavin!
Do not believe everything you read and buy yourself a RWS Diana 34 .177 cal. ;)
+1 on that!
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The biggest thing that gives springers the bad rap, is people wanting high velocity. A cheap springer thats claimed to shoot 1000fps and made out of plastic or is very lightweight is very hard to shoot accurately because the recoil is so severe. You can't have high power, accuracy, and lightweight out of a springer. You can have 2 out of the 3, but not all.
BUT!!!
Get a decent quality springer and get it shooting at a mellow velocity (12fpe or less in .177 is a good rule of thumb) and they are ridiculously easy to shoot accurately. But take the same gun and try and squeeze maximum power out of it, and it will instantly be much harder to shoot.
Even cheap guns can be very good shooters if they are kept at realistic power levels.
A "gas ram" is the same as a "springer" except for instead of having a conventional steel coil spring, they have a gas strut in its place. Very similar to the thing that holds the hood or rear hatch or trunk up on your car. They both recoil, and behave the same, but the gas ram usually has a sharper, sometimes harsher recoil. If you plan on tinkering and tweaking your gun, I'd suggest getting one with a metal spring. That way you can change springs to alter the power level and the way the recoil feels.
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Springers are not "bad" guns for beginners. If you are looking into getting your first springer I would recommend the following popular guns:
Hatsan 95
Hatsan striker edge
benjamin Trail series
RWS 34
XISICO XS-25
These are reasonably priced and are popular as first airgun purchases. Shooting a spring gun will require practice and patience to shoot well. Enjoy the challenge.
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limbshaker speaks the truth!
My first ever experience with an 'adult' airgun was with a FWB124 barrel cocker and I had NO TROUBLE hitting the stuff (pecans, cypress/sycamore/sweet-gum balls, pine cones) I was shooting at. Just don't get fooled by the 1400 fps advertizing. MV is no good if you can't hit the target item! I have killed nutria with headshots at 50 yards with a vintage Sheridan shooting .20 cal. at ~650 fps muzzle velocity and ~12fpe.
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;D Springers are definitely tricky . The trick is only buying only one
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O ya, bad to the bone. 8)
Welcome
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Each type of platform has advantages and disadvantages.
Powerful spring guns are usually hard to shoot well and it takes a lot of time and experience to shoot them well. They also say that they need break in time (some number of pellets shot through them before they settle down). Springers are hard on optics. Springers are self-contained and that makes them quite handy. These are generalizations.
PCP guns require a means to pump them up. Those pumps are expensive and the rifles tend to be more expensive also. Get the right pellet in a PCP and it will put pellet on pellet at 50 yards if you do your part.
Multi-pump pneumatics are also self-contained and are easier to shoot well than a springer. They are usually the lightest of the three as well. I've been informed that you can get some tuned ones that shoot in the 18 FPE range and that is the sweet spot for hunting small game. Just my opinion there. These are generalizations.
If there was a production gun similar to the Benji MPs in .22 that would deliver 770 fps with a 15 grain pellet. I'd probably buy it. I mean a from the factory production gun. I think that the factory folk are missing a great market there.
Anyway, if you go the route of a springer look at mid-range, mid-power guns. I like under levers or side levers but break barrel guns are usually lighter. Remember that springers are hard on optics so don't scrimp on the glass, make sure it is rated for a springer.
Find something you like and shoot it.
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O ya, bad to the bone Collector 8)
Welcome
There, I fixed it for ya. ;)
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Nah Sproingers are not bad, they make great clubs... ;)
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Just got my very first springer today. It's a .22 XS-25 from Flying Dragons. There was very little recoil, noise or vibration! After taking a few practice shots I put 5 pellets through a target and got .25" CTC with original iron sights at 10 yards - I'm an average shooter with old eyes!
I'm enjoying my PCPs and Multi pumps, but I like the idea grabbing a gun and a tin of pellets, cocking once and sending an 18.1gr pellet out at 660fps! For $125 basic or $225 fully tuned by one of the best in the business, how can you go wrong? And, you can plink, target shoot or take care of pests, small game out to 50 yards with practice.
Simple but powerful and accurate enough. IMHO, everyone should have at least one springer in their collection! If the Zombies come, you won't have to fight through them to get to your local SCUBA or paintball store! ;D
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A "gas ram" is the same as a "springer" except for instead of having a conventional steel coil spring, they have a gas strut in its place. Very similar to the thing that holds the hood or rear hatch or trunk up on your car. They both recoil, and behave the same, but the gas ram usually has a sharper, sometimes harsher recoil. If you plan on tinkering and tweaking your gun, I'd suggest getting one with a metal spring. That way you can change springs to alter the power level and the way the recoil feels.
I personally find the gas rams to have much less recoil than the conventional spring guns.
But maybe that is just my gun choices.
.
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So basically springers are not bad but the user just needs to have some practice under his belt, Alright cool. What are some good break barrels for hunting? i know a bunch of you guys mentioned the Diana rws 34, i have to admit its a gorgeous gun but a bit out of my price range. Ive heard good things about Hatsan any others?
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So basically springers are not bad but the user just needs to have some practice under his belt, Alright cool. What are some good break barrels for hunting? i know a bunch of you guys mentioned the Diana rws 34, i have to admit its a gorgeous gun but a bit out of my price range. Ive heard good things about Hatsan any others?
See ViperJack's post just a couple of posts back.
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What ViperJack said ...
I have a mild preference for the Benjamin Trail series (NP2 and NP XL) ...
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What ViperJack said ...
I have a mild preference for the Benjamin Trail series (NP2 and NP XL) ...
the NP2 looks nice, i noticed in your tag that you on the NP2 in .22 cal, what you opinion of it? and did you tune it your self? if so how?
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I had a QB78D converted to PCP. Good gun, couldn't miss. I just don't care for PCP so I sold it. To get started with PCP is $400-450.
The RWS 34 is probably the best springer for the price, $285. Never owned one but I have a Diana 470th same trigger and it's like magic.
Cheaper options are the Ruger Airhawk or XS25, same gun and a clones of the 34 but no T06 trigger.
Air Gun Depot has Airhawks with a scope fot $79.95+shipping. Flying Dragon has the XS25 for $115 and basic tune $40 no scope free shipping
Hatsan 95 might be a good starter springer about $150. Never had one but I have four other Hatsans with the same Quatro trigger. Not a T06 but better than most.
Saturday I order a refurbished Airhawk from Midway USA for $48+$15 shpg. no scope and a Winchester 1100 off Amazon $79.95 shipped with a 3-9X32 scope. Couldn't resist the price. They came today. The Airhawk via UPS looked like a new gun. Not a scratch. The 1100 via post office. Like a new gun. Couple of little scratches.
A good inexpensive scope is a Tech Force 2-7X32AO. Pyramyd Air has them in their close out sale for $39.95. I've got six of them. Sunday I ordered two Winchester 2-7X32AO scope off Amazon for $38 each shipped. Came yesterday via P.O. Got four of those. With that 2-7 I can see the holes in targets at 25 yds. For shooting 25 to 50 yds that's all the scope I need.
Another gun I've been thinking about is the same gun as an Airhawk with less power. 12 fpe/810fps.
Made for the UK market. Pyramyd sales them. The SMK TH208. $150 with a 3-9X40 scope and thumbhole stock.
I think these guns need to be shot with open sight for awhile till the smoking and dieseling stops and the oil gets blown out before mounting a scope. I think the dieseling breaks some scope that would hold up otherwise.
Well, that's my 2 cents worth. I got too many guns. I shoot most of'em pretty good, none of'em great except the 470th and the 135. Those are my go to guns but they got better scopes. Good luck and enjoy. This is fun stuff.
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A springer was my first love and has remained as such, loe these past 35 years tarnished only by my subsequent and everlasting affair with her close cousin the gas-ram. Neither will I ever release so long as breath I can take.
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Well said, Sir.
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Agreed
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What ViperJack said ...
I have a mild preference for the Benjamin Trail series (NP2 and NP XL) ...
the NP2 looks nice, i noticed in your tag that you on the NP2 in .22 cal, what you opinion of it? and did you tune it your self? if so how?
The NP2 is my backyard goto gun. Self tuned; replaced seal, deburred, honed, buttoned piston, Tuna trigger, fitted pivot washers, Mo lube ...
Smooth cocking, smooth shooter. Much less recoil than stock RWS 350 / 460, or Hatsan Patriot, and very quiet compared to the latter guns.
The NP XL twins also had same treatment, and although slightly more powerful than the NP2, still smoother and quieter than the stock RWS 350 / 460, or Hatsan Patriot.
I also find the NP2 just a little lighter and slightly more ergonomic to shoulder.
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Another vote for Flying Dragon. Get an XS25 with the full tune in .22 cal.
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Ive heard people telling me to avoid using springers b/c their like really hard to use and not for beginners, is that true? also whats the difference between a gas ram and a springer? anyone better than the other?
as you can probably tell im new to all this, so take it easy lol!
My experience with springers is that I really like my .177 R9s but not so much any of the "cheap springers" I've bought in the hope of setting up an inexpensive springer with more than "can rolling" accuracy.
Even when shooting hunter class field target style (sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks) I can shoot 1"ish ctc 5 shot groups at 50 yards with my R9 like this........
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2352014/1408920655_1975447583_KrytoxVAC50Y1_29_2013.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=56426)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
And the next 5 shots on paper from the same "sit"........
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2362014/1408970392_1754303378_Windy50yGroup12_20_12.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=56429)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
A piston gun does require a consistent shooting form to shoot accurately, however once you can shoot a piston gun accurately the PCPs are relatively easy. Some better than average (for me) groups shot at 50 yards hft style..........
5 shots.......
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/3142014/1415743451_1738447830_50yardNov112014.JPG) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=61840)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
Recently shot 4 shots. LOL, was afraid that the 5th shot would have messed it up :o....
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/1592015/1433882607_272301189_CPL50Y6_9_2015.JPG) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=73387)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
How about 15 out of 20 pellets through a 3/4" killzone at 50 yards.......
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2302014/1408450636_446347045_Gamotarget17_20.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=55953)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
For the "cheapies" I bought a Crosman Quest, Gamo440 (on sale), a BAM B26, and a Remington Express, all .177 cal. None would shoot better accurately than about 1" ctc at 30 yards, even after a LOT of rework and tuning but I do have to admit that the B26 was the "best of the bunch"!
My latest dabbling my toe in the shark infested waters of cheap springers was/is the Remington Express which has proven to be a major disappointment! The thing is a nice looking, nicely finished Chinese offering that seems to be a hybrid between the R9 and Diana34 but it has high cocking effort for mediocre output and the groups do wander around when shooting. Here is are a couple targets I shot at only 18 yards in an attempt to find an accurate pellet for the Remmy........
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/852015/1427499453_1579424357_RemmyTargetMar272015.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=68687)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/652015/1425767064_1891451870_RemmyTargetMar72015.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=67689)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
Anywhoo......my .177 R9 springer is all I've ever needed (or even wanted) for all shooting being it field target matches, squirrel hunting, plinking or informal target shooting!
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Deleted double post!
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;D Springers are definitely tricky . The trick is only buying only one
+1
Springers are the airguns I shoot the most. I grew up shooting them and I continue to enjoy shooting them almost daily. Honestly, the hold sensitivity is not that big of a deal. When I buy a springer, I enjoy learning how it likes to be held during the break-in period. After you know how the rifle likes to be held, they are, in my opinion, the best air rifles you can shoot because you don't have to worry about external power sources and you don't have to pump them multiple times before taking each shot.
You don't have to spend a fortune if you want to buy a quality springer. Many options are available at reasonable prices. My $100 Crosman Optimus is one of my favorites and is a very accurate rifle.
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If you don't mind buying refurbished, Air Gun Pro Shop has the Hatsan 95 for only $99.99.
http://www.airgunproshop.com/product-category/hatsan-refurbished/breakbarrel-variants/high-powered/ (http://www.airgunproshop.com/product-category/hatsan-refurbished/breakbarrel-variants/high-powered/)
For additional $49.95 you can upgrade to a 3-9X40 AO scope.
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Kavin,
You mentioned earlier, "a bunch of you guys mentioned the Diana RWS 34, i have to admit its a gorgeous gun but a bit out of my price range": the question then is, "What is your price range?" I suggest that the number you come up with be, not what you would like to spend but, what $$$ could you pull together if you really had to, to spend on an air rifle. As is often the case with most things, there really is a difference based on price. There is a difference between a $125 and a $1,000 air rifle. I suggest you get the best rifle you can afford. Once we know what your top price is we can make meaningful suggestions to you and perhaps point you in the direction to get an air rifle you will be satisfied with.
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Little more info needed Kev.
Budget, including glass.
What type of shooting and what distance.
BUDGET!!
Are springers bad???
If you want to spend $80 and shoot 1/4" groups at 70 yards with a plastic rifle touting 1800 fps......yup!! They are REAL bad!!!
Call Mike at Flying Dragons bro!!
Good luck!
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Little more info needed Kev.
Budget, including glass.
What type of shooting and what distance.
BUDGET!!
Are springers bad???
If you want to spend $80 and shoot 1/4" groups at 70 yards with a plastic rifle touting 1800 fps......yup!! They are REAL bad!!!
Call Mike at Flying Dragons bro!!
Good luck!
Really sorry guys, my top dollar would be $200 and looking to shoot up to 50 yards, birds to small game, I really should have mentioned this before
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For hunting I really like the gas ram. With a spring gun you have to wait until you know you're going to take a shot to cock the gun. With field target or something like that it's not really a problem, but a lot of times when you're hunting it doesn't work out so well. A gas ram you can cock and leave cocked for the duration of your hunt and for me personally, that's kind of a big deal.
It does seem that the very high quality gas ram guns are very expensive, though (compared to the Crosman guns). For your budget you should be able to get a Crosman/Benjamin nitro-piston with a modest optic and be effective within 30-40 yards. The NP2 would probably work out quite well for you.
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Look Here for the rifle:
http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=51 (http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=51)
YOU WANT TO ORDER IT WITH THE BASIC TUNE!
Look here for the scope:
http://www.amazon.com/Crosman-CPA416AORG2-Centerpoint-4-16x40mm-Riflescope/dp/B005WIAUUU/ref=sr_1_1?s=sports-and-fitness&ie=UTF8&qid=1434644026&sr=1-1&keywords=centerpoint+optics+4-16x40+ao (http://www.amazon.com/Crosman-CPA416AORG2-Centerpoint-4-16x40mm-Riflescope/dp/B005WIAUUU/ref=sr_1_1?s=sports-and-fitness&ie=UTF8&qid=1434644026&sr=1-1&keywords=centerpoint+optics+4-16x40+ao)
Have fun.
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" With a spring gun you have to wait until you know you're going to take a shot to cock the gun."
Not so! Have shot springers outdoors for 35+ years and walked around with 'em cocked and ready for the shot with no spring weakening. With a 'quality' spring, there is no real damage or weakening from leaving them cocked for an hour or so. You might not wanna leave one equipped with a 'softer' metal spring ($50 to $100+) cocked for very long though.
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The key is having one good Springer. I have an umarex surge that I paid almost nothing for. I put a Hawke 2-7x32 scope that outlived a poor hatsan striker 1000s (terrible gun, lasted 6000 shots). It took about 1000 shots to fully break in and for me to learn how to hold the gun. There is one stock screw that will come loose every tin of pellets or so, no matter how much loctite I put on it. Is it a pain? Yes. Does it make me wish I hadn't bought it? No. Does it group well? Absolutely! I routinely shoot the primers out of empty shotgun shells at 25 yards. Cloverleaf groups.
I think 95% of people who buy a Springer will not like them, and of the remaining 5%, about half know how to shoot them well and the other half don't care. The only problem that springers have in general is the unrealistic expectations people have when they buy them. A little knowledge, maintenance, and common sense is all that is needed, but the majority of consumers are lacking these. The majority of consumers are expecting to be able to prop the gun in a closet, and pull it out a couple times a year to get rid of a possum eating their cat's food or something.
if a person will likely shoot no more than a tin or two of pellets in their lifetime, then a Springer is not going to be a good gun. If a person wants a Springer to target shoot on the cheap and maybe do some hunting, then the right Springer is going to be a good gun.
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With a spring gun you have to wait until you know you're going to take a shot to cock the gun.
Nope....never had to do that with the R9s I've been shootin' for a couple decades! I simply shoot a shot or two when I get to the "squirrel woods", cock the gun-load pellet-latch barrel, and then hunt "normal style" like I did with rimfires.
LOL, if I didn't don't get a shot every couple hours then it was a SLOOOOW day, and a quality springer being cocked for a few hours at a time isn't an issue. When living in WV I shot roughly 10,000 shots per year and I had to replace a Maccari spring every couple of years with that shooting schedule. After a spring broke (and they do break after a lot of use) it was simply another $20 bill for a new Maccari spring plus about 30 minutes of disassembly/reassembly and I was good for another couple years!
With a springer there are a couple things considered "consumables" and need replacing occasionally like tires on your car. These are the spring, the piston seal, and the breech seal. LOL....even the gas ram gun can have issues with the piston seal and breech seal, plus the gas charge in the ram can leak down with time (especially the cheap rammers) and the "cheapies" have rams that can't be repaired....only replaced.
Anywhoo.....I personally consider replacing the spring of a R9/HW95 simply a "less than 1/2 hour chore" every few years and a non-issue!
P.S. I guess that I also have issues with this statement if "modest" means cheap.......
"with a modest optic and be effective within 30-40 yards."
Any piston gun of moderate power (say 14fpe) will require a robust scope. This is especially the "rammers" due to the sharper shot cycle. Also, the rammer requires more cocking effort for an equivalent power level than the springer. As a side note....I have found that the inexpensive Adventure Class scopes available at WallyMart for about $80 do hold up pretty good on a springer.
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Ohhh and springers are bad... it's an addiction !
And they are great for beginners, they correct every wrong technique used immediately... To still keep some fun in shooting I would advice a low to medium powered springer. Preferrably .22 in around 12fpe max. Like the HW50 or Diana 280. In .177 the HW30 is a great alternative.
And..., just start practising on short ranges with open sights. Save your money for a good scope as next purchase or put the money into a quality springer.
And most of it..., whatever you choose..., have fun !
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I have shot very well to fair midlin with friends BSA and tuned/untuned springers so I will never say that the can not be accurate and usually the less fpe the less hold sensitive...
But in the 200 dollar range with the double recoil well with the scope I just think there is difficulty ahead...
Now if you can work with peeps and learn to tune your rifle yourself...
Me in that range for store bought stock it would have to go to the pumpers; Benjis, Crosmans, and Sheridans...
My eyes got older and I like the scope now so I build 13XX and may build my 2100 into a ~850 fps .177 pumper with some custom parts.
They will usually need a little knowledge of how to tune/accurize a pumper some do very well out of the box...
Point is at the 200$ level the pumper has a less steep learning curve both on tuning and shooting well.
My I have had fun mixing and matching parts to come up with ~21 accurate fpe for about $150.
But for out of the box performance I would be getting a Benji 392 and a peep at the $200 dollar level...
And keep your eye out for some of the oldies that have been taken care of...
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=92189.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=92189.0)
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My springers are so much fun and very accurate! Flyindragon air rifles puts out great cost effective springers.I have a XS12 had a XS25 and have shot 3 different XS46u's from Mike melic all had his tunes on them and all shot great.
If you dont mind luggin around a heavy rifle the XS 46u is pretty sweet,the extra weight really mellows the spring in it.The rifles is not that hold sensitive,its very easy to shoot and very accurate.
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Little more info needed Kev.
Budget, including glass.
What type of shooting and what distance.
BUDGET!!
Are springers bad???
If you want to spend $80 and shoot 1/4" groups at 70 yards with a plastic rifle touting 1800 fps......yup!! They are REAL bad!!!
Call Mike at Flying Dragons bro!!
Good luck!
Really sorry guys, my top dollar would be $200 and looking to shoot up to 50 yards, birds to small game, I really should have mentioned this before
As already mention... Mike Mellick at Flying Dragon is your guy. Get and XS-25 in .22 with a full tune for right at your budget of $200. Mike is one of, if not, the best in the business for tuning and standing behind the Chinese springers. You will think you are shooting a way more expensive gun. The XS-25 is not too heavy to carry around in the woods either. We have 2 of them and we shoot open sights at 25 - 35 yds. and hit what we aim at. Oh.. did I mention? The XS-25 is one of the clones for the Diana that the others are raving about.
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With a spring gun you have to wait until you know you're going to take a shot to cock the gun.
Nope....never had to do that with the R9s I've been shootin' for a couple decades! I simply shoot a shot or two when I get to the "squirrel woods", cock the gun-load pellet-latch barrel, and then hunt "normal style" like I did with rimfires.
LOL, if I didn't don't get a shot every couple hours then it was a SLOOOOW day, and a quality springer being cocked for a few hours at a time isn't an issue. When living in WV I shot roughly 10,000 shots per year and I had to replace a Maccari spring every couple of years with that shooting schedule. After a spring broke (and they do break after a lot of use) it was simply another $20 bill for a new Maccari spring plus about 30 minutes of disassembly/reassembly and I was good for another couple years!
With a springer there are a couple things considered "consumables" and need replacing occasionally like tires on your car. These are the spring, the piston seal, and the breech seal. LOL....even the gas ram gun can have issues with the piston seal and breech seal, plus the gas charge in the ram can leak down with time (especially the cheap rammers) and the "cheapies" have rams that can't be repaired....only replaced.
Anywhoo.....I personally consider replacing the spring of a R9/HW95 simply a "less than 1/2 hour chore" every few years and a non-issue!
P.S. I guess that I also have issues with this statement if "modest" means cheap.......
"with a modest optic and be effective within 30-40 yards."
Any piston gun of moderate power (say 14fpe) will require a robust scope. This is especially the "rammers" due to the sharper shot cycle. Also, the rammer requires more cocking effort for an equivalent power level than the springer. As a side note....I have found that the inexpensive Adventure Class scopes available at WallyMart for about $80 do hold up pretty good on a springer.
If you can point the OP toward a springer you can leave cocked all day for $200 with an optic I'm all for it. And I specifically avoided using the word cheap. The Centerpoint scopes are a good example of modest optics. They don't have great glass, but they're relatively inexpensive and they seem to hold up fairly well to medium powered springers.
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With a spring gun you have to wait until you know you're going to take a shot to cock the gun.
Nope....never had to do that with the R9s I've been shootin' for a couple decades! I simply shoot a shot or two when I get to the "squirrel woods", cock the gun-load pellet-latch barrel, and then hunt "normal style" like I did with rimfires.
LOL, if I didn't don't get a shot every couple hours then it was a SLOOOOW day, and a quality springer being cocked for a few hours at a time isn't an issue. When living in WV I shot roughly 10,000 shots per year and I had to replace a Maccari spring every couple of years with that shooting schedule. After a spring broke (and they do break after a lot of use) it was simply another $20 bill for a new Maccari spring plus about 30 minutes of disassembly/reassembly and I was good for another couple years!
With a springer there are a couple things considered "consumables" and need replacing occasionally like tires on your car. These are the spring, the piston seal, and the breech seal. LOL....even the gas ram gun can have issues with the piston seal and breech seal, plus the gas charge in the ram can leak down with time (especially the cheap rammers) and the "cheapies" have rams that can't be repaired....only replaced.
Anywhoo.....I personally consider replacing the spring of a R9/HW95 simply a "less than 1/2 hour chore" every few years and a non-issue!
P.S. I guess that I also have issues with this statement if "modest" means cheap.......
"with a modest optic and be effective within 30-40 yards."
Any piston gun of moderate power (say 14fpe) will require a robust scope. This is especially the "rammers" due to the sharper shot cycle. Also, the rammer requires more cocking effort for an equivalent power level than the springer. As a side note....I have found that the inexpensive Adventure Class scopes available at WallyMart for about $80 do hold up pretty good on a springer.
If you can point the OP toward a springer you can leave cocked all day for $200 with an optic I'm all for it. And I specifically avoided using the word cheap. The Centerpoint scopes are a good example of modest optics. They don't have great glass, but they're relatively inexpensive and they seem to hold up fairly well to medium powered springers.
leave cocked all day for $200 with an optic I'm all for it
LOL......no can do for sure, just my scope alone cost $349 and it ain't a real expensive one.
As mentioned, I tried out several "cheapie springers" and even after a lot of "tweaking" they fell short of my requirements!
My .177 R9 with 3-12x44 Optisan Viper scope and cheap UTG one piece scope mount.
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I have shot very well to fair midlin with friends BSA and tuned/untuned springers so I will never say that the can not be accurate and usually the less fpe the less hold sensitive...
But in the 200 dollar range with the double recoil well with the scope I just think there is difficulty ahead...
Now if you can work with peeps and learn to tune your rifle yourself...
Me in that range for store bought stock it would have to go to the pumpers; Benjis, Crosmans, and Sheridans...
My eyes got older and I like the scope now so I build 13XX and may build my 2100 into a ~850 fps .177 pumper with some custom parts.
They will usually need a little knowledge of how to tune/accurize a pumper some do very well out of the box...
Point is at the 200$ level the pumper has a less steep learning curve both on tuning and shooting well.
My I have had fun mixing and matching parts to come up with ~21 accurate fpe for about $150.
But for out of the box performance I would be getting a Benji 392 and a peep at the $200 dollar level...
And keep your eye out for some of the oldies that have been taken care of...
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=92189.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=92189.0)
Ive seen these and have never considered them, well probably b/c my first ever air rifle was some cheap walmart pumper, wasnt accurate and was loud pumping, the one issue i personally would have with this gun is that when im out in the field i wouldn't want to be pumping multiple times for one shot, its kinda why i liked the break barrel system, just one pump and your set. But maybe im wrong maybe someone who uses pumpers for hunting can chime in
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Little more info needed Kev.
Budget, including glass.
What type of shooting and what distance.
BUDGET!!
Are springers bad???
If you want to spend $80 and shoot 1/4" groups at 70 yards with a plastic rifle touting 1800 fps......yup!! They are REAL bad!!!
Call Mike at Flying Dragons bro!!
Good luck!
Really sorry guys, my top dollar would be $200 and looking to shoot up to 50 yards, birds to small game, I really should have mentioned this before
Kevin,,,
You can get a really accurate rifle from Gamo that has a VERY long history. For what hunting distances you state and small game...you don't have big barriers buddy. The Europeans use the 12fpe power guns all the time! By Laws they have. But they have Rabbits/Squirrels in the pot, all the time! Accuracy is the Key.
A good fixed barrel rifle is a well proven historic tool for airgunners. Here's a link to an old model (mechanically) with a scope and sexy stock. This fixed barrel rifle has been around for a long time, it's easy and accurate to shoot. Plenty of power for small game hunting. This will be your 14fpe power class air rifle. Again..Plenty.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Gamo-Whisper-CFR-.177-Fixed-Barrel-Air-Rifle/20893210 (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Gamo-Whisper-CFR-.177-Fixed-Barrel-Air-Rifle/20893210)
With a scope it's a good buy. Understand that this is a "starter scope" but it's still worth it if you are starting out as an airgunner. The BOTTOM line (as many of the old guys will say), is that you can always put a better scope on a good gun... You can't do it the other way. ;)
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Little more info needed Kev.
Budget, including glass.
What type of shooting and what distance.
BUDGET!!
Are springers bad???
If you want to spend $80 and shoot 1/4" groups at 70 yards with a plastic rifle touting 1800 fps......yup!! They are REAL bad!!!
Call Mike at Flying Dragons bro!!
Good luck!
Really sorry guys, my top dollar would be $200 and looking to shoot up to 50 yards, birds to small game, I really should have mentioned this before
As already mention... Mike Mellick at Flying Dragon is your guy. Get and XS-25 in .22 with a full tune for right at your budget of $200. Mike is one of, if not, the best in the business for tuning and standing behind the Chinese springers. You will think you are shooting a way more expensive gun. The XS-25 is not too heavy to carry around in the woods either. We have 2 of them and we shoot open sights at 25 - 35 yds. and hit what we aim at. Oh.. did I mention? The XS-25 is one of the clones for the Diana that the others are raving about.
i think ill probably go check him out, ive heard alot about him, not only from this forum but also just from surfing around the other threads on the website.
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Mike Mellick has been at this for a while. I "Personally" would spend the extra for him to tune it for you. The basic tune is basic,,,,, but remember that these are Chinese air rifles, after all. Spend the extra money..... A good trigger is a big difference...
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Mike Mellick has been at this for a while. I "Personally" would spend the extra for him to tune it for you. The basic tune is basic,,,,, but remember that these are Chinese air rifles, after all. Spend the extra money..... A good trigger is a big difference...
What he said... ^^^^^
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Look Here for the rifle:
http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=51 (http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=51)
YOU WANT TO ORDER IT WITH THE BASIC TUNE!
Look here for the scope:
http://www.amazon.com/Crosman-CPA416AORG2-Centerpoint-4-16x40mm-Riflescope/dp/B005WIAUUU/ref=sr_1_1?s=sports-and-fitness&ie=UTF8&qid=1434644026&sr=1-1&keywords=centerpoint+optics+4-16x40+ao (http://www.amazon.com/Crosman-CPA416AORG2-Centerpoint-4-16x40mm-Riflescope/dp/B005WIAUUU/ref=sr_1_1?s=sports-and-fitness&ie=UTF8&qid=1434644026&sr=1-1&keywords=centerpoint+optics+4-16x40+ao)
Have fun.
is Mikes basic tune come with the trigger? in the video review on his website it says paying the money for the tune is good b/c mike puts in a screw for the trigger but idk if the trigger mod is include in the basic tune
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The trigger mod is included, I believe. If you have questions call Mike and ask him, He'll talk to you. Tell him another Iowa boy sent you his way.
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Trigger mod is with full tune.
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Trigger mod is with full tune.
on his website their isn't an option for the full tune, for this specific rifle. do i have to send him a special request for this?
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Mikes rifle is what im look at right now, but i really wanna keep my choices open and compare alot of different rifles and just research about them, are their any other rifles people here recommend that weren't already mentioned?
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Kavin,
In your price range, we've hit 'em.
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Anybody try that new Fuel? It's advertised as a gun that can be held like a powder burner.
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That $48 refurb Airhawk from MidwayUSA has got a trigger about as good as my 470th. The Winchester refurb from amazon trigger is hard but smooth and predictable. I took them out of the stocks, checked them out and just shot them off the back porch. I'll see how they shoot and chrony this weekend.
Flying Dragon 25 is probably the one I'd choose with a $200 budget. $115, $40 tune leaves $45 for a scope.
Three years ago when I started this addiction to learn to shoot left handed my first two guns were a RS2 dual cal. from Walmart and then a Airhawk also from Walmart. Back then they both were about $130 each. Enjoyed both of them a bunch and learned a lot. If I had thought I was going to have to have a $470 gun and $300 scope to get started I would have taken up needle point.
Later I bought a TF89 .177 at a pawn shop with a UTG 30mm 3-9X40 Lum. Mildot scope for $80. It kicked so hard I couldn't shoot it. Almost cut my eyebrow with it. I cocked it put it on safe and put it in a closet on purpose to see if it would loose some power(de-tune for dummies). Four months later took it out and shot it. Hardly lost one fps and still kicked like a mule. Now a couple of years of experience later I can shoot it fine and it still kicks like a mule. About like my 135. That's my experience of it.
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"But maybe im wrong maybe someone who uses pumpers for hunting can chime in "
Hunted with a stock Benji in the Big Bend Area (east Texas) as a youngster and in the 1970s-1980s all over Nevada and along the Pacific crest trail area. In Nevada I used a modded 2200 and a Modded Benji both about 17fpe...
you can pump quietly...
I live in the wrong state for hunting with an Air rifle now...
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If one goes from springer to PCP, it's called moving over to the "Dark Side". Since I went from PCP to springer, would that be considered, "Stepping into the light?" :o
No flame! I LOVE my PCPs and 1322 pumper. I plan on adding more of both to my collection. But I'm having a blast with my XS-25!!!
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Nah, I would think they call it getting sprung... :o
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;D Getting sprung works ;) ;D
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For most of my nighttime hunts with the XS28M, I have kept the gun cocked. Any time I shot the gun, I re-cocked and loaded immediately. I NEVER wait until I see game to cock it at night. I hunt with a headlamp and I can't see a critter until I am very close, and I get about a second to shoulder and fire before they are gone. Even during the day it usually stays cocked and ready. When I received the gun from Flying Dragon it was shooting about 650-655 with 25.4 grains, and today it shoots about 700 fps with the same pellet. So once broken in, despite usually being left cocked whenever in use, it still had more power than when new. When your gun is running right, springs don't just wear out from being left cocked for a day at a time.
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Mikes rifle is what im look at right now, but i really wanna keep my choices open and compare alot of different rifles and just research about them, are their any other rifles people here recommend that weren't already mentioned?
Truthfully Kevin...you have pretty much exhausted your choices and budget. Now YOU have to pull the trigger on your selection... You will choose a China rifle...or not. Unfortunately, the Turks are out of the US game...for support.
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Mikes rifle is what im look at right now, but i really wanna keep my choices open and compare alot of different rifles and just research about them, are their any other rifles people here recommend that weren't already mentioned?
Truthfully Kevin...you have pretty much exhausted your choices and budget. Now YOU have to pull the trigger on your selection... You will choose a China rifle...or not. Unfortunately, the Turks are out of the US game...for support.
yeah i think i pretty much made my decision, thanks to everyone who contributed!
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I bet that money made your decision, That's great that you are entering airgunning! Welcome
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Well, what'a you gonna' get?
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Well, what'a you gonna' get?
thinking of getting one of Mikes rifles!
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Good choice. Enjoy, this is fun stuff.
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Enjoy your new rifle Kevin
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Enjoy your new rifle Kevin
+1
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Mine arrived last week. If you like yours half as much you'll be ecstatic! Please let us know your impressions when it arrives.